Phillipino dominance?
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What about Min-Wai Chin, the runner-up to Souquet in the 2000 US Open (14.1)?cuetechasaurus said:
From what I read on this forum alone, Chin is a monster straight pool player. I think I've read posts (from Yokita I believe) that he has runs over 400. It doesn't seem like he travels outside of taiwan much, since there hasn't been too many international 14.1 competitions. It's not a stretch to believe there are several other Chin's in Taiwan as well.
jsp said:
Bring 'Em on and let the match/es begin !
cuetechasaurus said:
That's great. Straight pool? Taiwan's got a few straight pool monsters, Ming is probably the best and most recognized for being a straight-up straight pool player.
Once again, this is a death-defying leap of logic. "There are 3 Germans who have high runs in straight pool over 400, therefore the Germans play just as good as the Taiwanese"??
I was referring to them as one and the same. How else can you interpret "depth of talent?" Certainly not individual depth of talent, as you're suggesting now.
By your interpretation, John Shmidt has run over 400 balls, therefore Americans play just as good as the Taiwanese. Does that make any sense?
How many Filipinos have runs over 400 balls?
-Roger
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Hail Mary Shot said:
That is certainly true, but not what I said.
I meant that I've been around long enough to have witnessed hundreds of retarded threads, and IMO this one represents some of the best in unfounded, unqualified, convoluted opinions.
-Roger
buddha162 said:
Have I mentioned the Philippines? this shows to prove how you put words into others mouth. and you are saying you make a lot of sense? you are outdoing yourself again Roger
! Whether it is the Filipinos, Americans, or Europeans against the Taiwanese, bring the taiwanese game outside if they are that confident of winning and let's see who's the best ! not just an unproven theory of yours that hasn't been tested yet ! and please, spare me the expenses and preoccupation of the taiwanese players in their league alibi.
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Don't let Efren hear that or else he will start playing straight pool for real.
Hail Mary Shot said:Have I mentioned the Philippines? this shows to prove how you put words into others mouth. and you are saying you make a lot of sense? you are outdoing yourself again Roger
and please, spare me the expenses and preoccupation of the taiwanese players in their league alibi.
You really are a lightweight.
Why would I spare you the truth? They have a full-time tour. They play in the Asian tour. They participate in major international tournaments (WPC, Japan Open). They have no reason, ZERO, to travel elsewhere to compete.
The socio-economic reality of Taiwan is very, very different from that of the Philippines. The Pinoy players left to make money they can't make at home. Why should the Taiwanese leave to lose money they can make at home?
-Roger
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buddha162 said:
Gotcha ! LOSE MONEY and you said it yourself !
lol !and another repeat of your classic alibis of not competing elsewhere. Well that does really prove that the taiwanese are better than the rest by staying at home soil, ain't it ? WOW ! I need to hold on to something before I get blown away !
Lemme elaborate your demise.
Your scenario is like this. I'm better than the rest of the world that could offer me a challenge but I won't compete with them because my schedule doesn't permit me to and I also earn money by staying here and I don't want to lose money! And that proves I'm better !
You do really make a lot of sense now Roger! You seem to surprise me everytime by outdoing yourself. keep it up ! lol !
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When he said "lose money", I don't think he literally mean that the taiwanese will lose tournaments and lose money. They could win some tournaments and still lose money if their expenses (plane tickets, lodging, etc) exceeds their winnings. It could also mean that they could win $100,000 here in a month, but then if they stayed at home they could earn more because the pay is greater and there are less expenses.
sky.. said:
but the point here sky is the fact that Roger is saying that the taiwanese are greater than the americans, europeans, filipinos in straight pool without having to compete outside to face foreign faces. regardless of the so-called expenditures, if he really want to prove his theory of dominance, he would have obliged for an outside competition for the taiwanese rather than facing fellow taiwanese and saying they are better. otherwise, it would be another baloney without any proof. all he could come up with are alibis why they cannot compete and yet say that they are better than the rest. I don't hate the taiwanese players, except that Roger here makes a bad impression on them by feeding them with sausages.
buddha162 said:
It's okay to admit when you don't know something.
May I inquire as to what you base your assessment of Germany's talent pool on that you can make a statement that it's not even close to the Phillipines? Mine is based on first hand experience in Germany, Europe, Japan, Taiwan and China for the last 20 years. You are correct however, my reality is a serious departure from yours in this regard.
Roadie said:It's okay to admit when you don't know something.
Mine is based on first hand experience in Germany, Europe, Japan, Taiwan and China for the last 20 years. You are correct however, my reality is a serious departure from yours in this regard.
Roadie, I hope that you can make it and come to the Philippines this year to see the other Philippine pool players in action. Enjoy your stay! too bad I can't make it there, I'm having a busy year this 2007. I guess I'll miss the WPC this year.
buddha162 said:
Yes I am. When all the factors are considered, such as amount of players playing, access to championship caliber players/competition, and opportunity each of these countries produces about the right amount of world class talent in my opinion.
Now, if you want to take the top 100 players in the Filipines and match them up against the top 100 Germans there is no question that the Filipinos have the edge. Now compare the amount of people playing and competing regularly expressed as a percentage of the population and you will see that Germany might have a higher perentage of world class talent emerging from a pool of players that is less than the Phillipines has.
I say might, because I don't have the data to back up this theory. What I do have is plenty of anecdotal evidence of world class players whose names are virtually unknown outside of Europe. Just as you have such players in Taiwan, Japan, the Phillipines and China. Who ever heard of Li He Wen before this year's WPC? Not me, although he apparently played on some San Miguel stops. Seems the guy plays pretty good. I wonder how many more like him there are in China who haven't moved to the world stage yet?
The point is Roger that you cannot dismiss an entire country just because you happen to think that your guys Taiwan/Filipinos are the best. You might well be right, but that doesn't mean that your guys haven't ever been beaten by foreigners. They have been and will continue to be beaten in tournaments because in tournaments any world beater can beat any other world beater in any given set. Gambling in long sessions is another story.
I submit to all of you that the type of conditioning that the gambling in the Phillipines and Taiwan is unlike just about anywhere else in the world. IF the Europeans were conditioned the same way then I submit that they would also be considered to be feared money players.
I want to make a point about this. It appeals to our collective testosterone to want to crown the ultimate player. We all would like that person to be someone from our country. There is no question that Efren Reyes is the greatest player of our time. He has shown the ability to win when his peers in his age group are struggling. He has shown mastery of several disciplines. Efren also stands taller than his countrymen in this regard. I submit to the group that Efren is not great because he is Filipino but that he is simply a pure prodigy who happened to have the opportunity to do that which he is bet suited. Efren is our Willie Mosconi, our Willie Hoppe, our Jordan, our Tiger. His talent trancends nationality. While his countrymen also excel none of them has shown the same versatility as Efren to date. None have achieved what he has. Some may yet.
It is a mistake to try and classify one country as having the "best" players. All major countries have great players. And each of those countries has players that are the "best" at any given time. Until there are Ryder Cup style events that do pit each country's best against each other there won't be a clear answer. I propose that we just celebrate the fact that there are many great players who are all struggling to be the best they can be and that we are allowed to be a part of their perfect pool once in a while.
Hail Mary Shot said:I admire your unbiased perspective Roadie. but I also want to add up certain things. Population is quite a factor in competition but we must also consider the predominant interest in certain sports. The Philippines for example is not entirely a pool country. the people there are most likely a bunch of basketball crazed enthusiasts. though they might not be dominating in it when it comes to international competition. India has a very large population but their interests is in cricket, Russia and parts of europe mainly chess and so forth and so on. that means population is not a basis for one's dominance in a particular sport unless they don't have any real interest in the sport. We should never just rely on population as a basis for dominating a sport coz Germany also have a big population.
I agree that Germans, Dutches and Swedes are catching up but not yet at the same level as that of matching against the taiwanese and the filipinos.
though I completely disagree to what you are saying that hustling diminishes a player's skill. Remember, Most of these professionals are also hustlers, yet their game doesn't diminish.
Actually it is a good idea to what you are saying that there should be a world staging for such an event to see who is dominant for a certain year. a fair number of representatives for each country competing for the coveted title to determine supremacy over the others. a 12-man representative for each team sounds fair, don't you think?
my suggestion for such an event is a singles match, single elimination format. the team with the most wins in a head to head matchup advances to the next round. if there is a 6 wins-6 loss tie, the team with the most games won will advance.
I meant density and accessibility. In America there are pockets where world beaters congregate but they aren't many. You aren't going to find much in the way of consistent cheap action happening with world beaters squaring off against weaker players hoping to get better. Backers don't back it and players in the USA can't afford it. Compare that to the Phillipines where tough action is all around and can be had for relatively little stakes. Winning a $100 set means a lot more there than it does here.
So if I am a Filipino player on my way up I can get all the tough games I want without having to travel very far. When I run out of competition I don't have to travel very far to get more. In the USA a good player runs out of competition very quickly and has to travel farther and farther and spend more and more to hone their game. That's what I really meant. It's a bit tougher of a nut to become a champion in the USA than it is in the Phillipines in my opinon. In the Phillipines you have tough competition all the time and a bunch of people who want your spot. I have lways said that champions breed champions.
Now, as to the idea that hustling diminishes skill. I said that because when a player is forced to constantly adjust his speed in order to trap the other player he cannot feel the same pressure to win in top gear. He cannot become battle hardened through flat out gunfights. I fully believe that the hustling aspect of the game is the reason that a lot of US players never realize their full potential. They are always sizing up their opponents, calculating the moves, adjusting their playing style. I think the Europeans, the Japanese, the Taiwanese and of course, the Filipinos, just play flat out and therefore they are more consistent on average. Of course anyone involved in the world of gambling on pool has hustled to some degree or another at times. I think though that for the most part the Filipinos and the Taiwanese are looking to match up fairly and not have a lock. In the USA 99.99% of the players on the road matching up are looking for a lock. And this doesn't do anything to make them better or stronger players. Any road player knows you can't make a living playing pool for money when your games all have a 50% chance of success.
Why is Dennis Orcullo so strong? Because he isn't hustling anyone. He just plays flat out everytime he plays. Do you think Kirkwood does that, or Bartram, or Basavich? Not a chance. They aren't taking on all comers to get stronger, they aren't giving out weight to champions. They are looking for the nuts when they match up.
So having been around for a long time I have yet to see anyone step over the line from being primarily a hustler to becoming a consistent world class pro. Sure there are plenty of guys who came in off the road, Jimmy Wetch, Basavich, and so on, but none of them have lived up to the potential they showed. Why? Well, in my opinion, it's because they spent a lot of their formative years in pool holding back.
look at their stroke
The real reason that we don't stack up to the phillipino players is that, here in the US we are taught to use a pendulum stroke which doesn't do much to create an accelerating stroke at the moment of contact with the cue ball. The Phillipino players are taught a double fulcrum stroke which automaticly generates an accelerating stroke. Look at their shoulder and upper arm when they stroke the ball.
Acceleration at the contact with the cue is important because it increases the contact time which allows the player greater feel and control.
there is more info on this subject on my website
Craig Smith
www.blackboarcustomcues.com
The real reason that we don't stack up to the phillipino players is that, here in the US we are taught to use a pendulum stroke which doesn't do much to create an accelerating stroke at the moment of contact with the cue ball. The Phillipino players are taught a double fulcrum stroke which automaticly generates an accelerating stroke. Look at their shoulder and upper arm when they stroke the ball.
Acceleration at the contact with the cue is important because it increases the contact time which allows the player greater feel and control.
there is more info on this subject on my website
Craig Smith
www.blackboarcustomcues.com
Roadie,
I think the contention is that no matter how good those Germans are, unless they prove it on the world stage all they have is the potential.
"What if's and what could have been's" don't count. Many Filipinos compared to the Germans graduated from their "what if" status outside the country.
Case in point, Dennis Orcullo. He is feared for a long time locally and highly sought after by Dutch and Swede players who want to learn ball control. He could have been easily the counterpart of one of those unknown Germans that you are talking about who can beat top-tier pros, but the difference is that he proved it by winning the World Pool League.
The most recent graduate of "what if university" is Ronato Alcano.
I think the contention is that no matter how good those Germans are, unless they prove it on the world stage all they have is the potential.
"What if's and what could have been's" don't count. Many Filipinos compared to the Germans graduated from their "what if" status outside the country.
Case in point, Dennis Orcullo. He is feared for a long time locally and highly sought after by Dutch and Swede players who want to learn ball control. He could have been easily the counterpart of one of those unknown Germans that you are talking about who can beat top-tier pros, but the difference is that he proved it by winning the World Pool League.
The most recent graduate of "what if university" is Ronato Alcano.
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