physical consequences of cue balance point location

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
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The difference between a front and rear weighted cue feel in your hands is remarkably small. Most cues in the 18-20 once area fall within a range that's inside of an inch.

I started to play one game the other night with my cue extention (8 in) threaded onto the butt of the cue. I had used it on a couple of shots while playing scotch doubles (my partner must have enjoyed leaving me those hard to reach shots). Anyway, I decided to just leave the extension on for the next game.

It is a very light plastic extension, around 1oz or lighter, and it probably only made a small difference in the balance point of the cue. However, the difference in how it felt when stroking the cue was not small. It was noticeable enough that it affected my stroke, my timing. It didn't feel right, an uncomfortable distraction, and I found myself trying to adjust my grip hand position and bridge length to fix it. Still, nothing felt right. After a few awkward feeling shots, I took the extention off.

I'd likely have to play a few hundred hours using the extension in order to develop the muscle memory that would make it feel normal.
 

dquarasr

Registered
I might be a crappy low-level player, but isn’t this discussion sort of moot?

Isn’t it relatively easy to change the feel of a cue merely by moving the grip hand forward or aft, and changing the bridge length slightly accordingly? I mean, balance point from cue-to-cue can’t be more than 1.5-2.0”, right?

Is it more in our heads than in the cue balance point actually affecting the feel?

Not trying to be argumentative, I am trying to learn…
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
...pulling or pushing is best defined by the action of the arm muscles being used in relation to where the balance point of the cue is located, which is typically ahead of the grip hand. So moving the cue forward is a physical "pushing" motion, while moving it backward is a physical "pulling" motion.
For both back strokes and forward strokes, there's always mass behind and in front of the grip hand (defined by the direction of motion), so the stick is always being both "pulled" and "pushed".

pj
chgo
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
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For both back strokes and forward strokes, there's always mass behind and in front of the grip hand (defined by the direction of motion), so the stick is always being both "pulled" and "pushed".

pj
chgo

What about this: Let's say there’s a person pushing a car out of the street. This person has the driver side door open and is pushing from the open doorway so that they can guide the steering wheel when needed. Using your cue mass example, where there is "always mass behind and in front of the grip hand", would you look at this person and honestly tell yourself he is PULLING the car?? Lol. Probably not.

Of course, if the person is stationed around the center mass of the car, then I suppose we could say the front half of the car is being pushed and the rear half is being pulled. But if the center mass is ahead of the person, as with a pool cue and the grip hand, then the majority of the mass is being pushed, not pulled.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
I might be a crappy low-level player, but isn’t this discussion sort of moot?

Isn’t it relatively easy to change the feel of a cue merely by moving the grip hand forward or aft, and changing the bridge length slightly accordingly? I mean, balance point from cue-to-cue can’t be more than 1.5-2.0”, right?

Is it more in our heads than in the cue balance point actually affecting the feel?

Not trying to be argumentative, I am trying to learn…

For some players, little differences in weight, or in grip hand placement or bridge length, can be a mental distraction. If something feels off, or not quite normal, it can affect performance quite a bit. And it doesn't matter if it's a real difference or an imagined difference. Once it's in your head, it's a distraction, and that's real.
 

boogieman

It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
I started to play one game the other night with my cue extention (8 in) threaded onto the butt of the cue. I had used it on a couple of shots while playing scotch doubles (my partner must have enjoyed leaving me those hard to reach shots). Anyway, I decided to just leave the extension on for the next game.

It is a very light plastic extension, around 1oz or lighter, and it probably only made a small difference in the balance point of the cue. However, the difference in how it felt when stroking the cue was not small. It was noticeable enough that it affected my stroke, my timing. It didn't feel right, an uncomfortable distraction, and I found myself trying to adjust my grip hand position and bridge length to fix it. Still, nothing felt right. After a few awkward feeling shots, I took the extention off.

I'd likely have to play a few hundred hours using the extension in order to develop the muscle memory that would make it feel normal.
If you've been seeing any more current Fedor matches, you'll notice he has a short extension that he removes and puts back on frequently. I could see someone like that with such strong mechanics tuning their cue for different style shots.
 

BC21

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Silver Member
If you've been seeing any more current Fedor matches, you'll notice he has a short extension that he removes and puts back on frequently. I could see someone like that with such strong mechanics tuning their cue for different style shots.

Oh yeah, even with my extension there are some shots that feel ok, the hard to reach shots. It allows me to move my grip hand back farther, which "feels" normal, but the bridge length might be 2 or 3 times longer than normal, and that looks and feels wonky.

Occassional use of the extention isn't an issue. It's when I leave it on and shoot regular shots where the extension isn't needed. That's when it makes my stroke feel wonky, because my grip hand and bridge hand placement is normal, but there's an extra 8in in the back, and that makes it physical awkward.

With practice and repetition, I could program my muscles and my mind to get used to the extention full-time, then it would no longer be a distraction on normal shots. But I will likely never do that.
 

evergruven

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
For some players, little differences in weight, or in grip hand placement or bridge length, can be a mental distraction. If something feels off, or not quite normal, it can affect performance quite a bit. And it doesn't matter if it's a real difference or an imagined difference. Once it's in your head, it's a distraction, and that's real.

yea b, we're human beings huh? :)

when I started this thread, I knew for myself that I was sensitive to a cue's balance, and wanted to try and figure out why
just putting it on "feel" is good enough for me, because I feel it- but obviously there's more to the story, esp. that which is not yet understood

as humans we're very adaptable- we're capable of a lot of things, changing in all kinds of ways..I try to keep that in mind
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
the tricep 'pulls' it back and the bicep 'pushes' it forward.
I'd say both those muscles pull the forearm - the biceps pulls it forward and the triceps pulls it back.

I think pushing/pulling is defined by whether the mass is in front of the force or behind it (in relation to the direction of motion) - in a pool stroke both are always happening at once.

pj <- not that any of this matters
chgo
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
I'd say both those muscles pull the forearm - the biceps pulls it forward and the triceps pulls it back.

I think pushing/pulling is defined by whether the mass is in front of the force or behind it (in relation to the direction of motion) - in a pool stroke both are always happening at once.

pj <- not that any of this matters
chgo

With a pool cue then, unless all the mass is in the last few inches of the butt, this definition indicates that we push the cue forward and pull it backward. And that's the common sense way of looking at the whole pushing/pulling bit. Anyhow, you are 100% correct in saying, "not that any of this matters".

What matters, I suppose, is that a player can call it whatever they want, whatever they feel like is happening. If a player wants to think or feel that they are "pulling the cue" forward into the cb, and this helps them deliver a better stroke, then by all means they should keep thinking way, regardless of the physical motion that is actually happening.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
With a pool cue then, unless all the mass is in the last few inches of the butt, this definition indicates that we push the cue forward and pull it backward.
I’d say…

For a forward stroke we push most of it (the majority that’s in front of the grip hand) and pull the rest (the minority behind the hand).

For a back stroke we do the opposite.

In both cases we’re pushing and pulling (different amounts) simultaneously.

pj <- does it matter yet?
chgo
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I’d say…

For a forward stroke we push most of it (the majority that’s in front of the grip hand) and pull the rest (the minority behind the hand).

For a back stroke we do the opposite.

In both cases we’re pushing and pulling (different amounts) simultaneously.

pj <- does it matter yet?
chgo
I think it does matter. For example: I use it when trying to train someone who normally drops their elbow in a detrimental way, to keep it still --- well, at least more still than they did before. Once I've explained to them that when they keep their elbow/shoulder still, the forward motion is a pulling motion. And when they start to engage their shoulder it becomes a pushing motion --- they get it and they can feel the difference. We all know that we don't shoot pool looking at ourselves in a mirror. We have to grab on to certain 'feels.'

Another way I describe the pendulum type stroke is an open and close motion. That works as well.
 
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BRKNRUN

Showin some A$$
Silver Member
Honestly I am not even sure what balance point on the cue defines a forward balance vs rear balance.......I like a balance point that is anywhere from the top of the wrap to about an inch in front of the traditional wrap...but then again...what defines the distance from the top of the wrap to the joint...what type of joint is being used....what pin

I skimmed through the whole thing....Nobody seemd to bring up the effect of tip deflection.....Take the shooting off the rail shot where only the top of the CB is available......"Mentally" (at least) to me....a more rear weighted cue (shooting off the rail) seems to take more work to keep the tip on the cue ball that seems to easily deflect up and off the ball resulting in a mis-cue....A more forward weighted cue "seems" (at least to me) to keep the tip on the CB better through the shot....Scientifically I can't prove anything

Before CF shafts....I always seemed to prefer the hit and balance of a heavier denser shaft over a light shaft....in combination with the balance being just in front of the wrap.

Another mental phenomenon seemed to be that changing the balance bolt can make a overall heavy cue feel lighter and a lighter cue feel a bit more heavy.

So many variables......
 
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