physical consequences of cue balance point location

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't know it either. Can you enlighten us?

pj
chgo
Isn't it obvious? Whatever you're holding in your hand affects your weight and balance and center of gravity when you're bent over at the table. C'mon Patrick. Rather then a knee-jerk challenge to me, how about thinking about it for more than a minute? It's not rocket science.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Isn't it obvious? Whatever you're holding in your hand affects your weight and balance and center of gravity when you're bent over at the table. C'mon Patrick. Rather then a knee-jerk challenge to me, how about thinking about it for more than a minute? It's not rocket science.
I don't have to think about it for more than a second to know that a cue's balance point can have no discernible effect on your stance's balance. You'd probably have to hold the cue in one hand with that arm fully extended for its overall weight to have any meaningful effect before you rest your bridge hand on the table, much less after.

I'm sure you're a great coach, but maybe you should leave this lesson out of the curriculum.

pj
chgo
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I don't have to think about it for more than a second to know that a cue's balance point can have no discernible effect on your stance's balance. You'd probably have to hold the cue in one hand with that arm fully extended for its overall weight to have any meaningful effect before you rest your bridge hand on the table, much less after.

I'm sure you're a great coach, but maybe you should leave this lesson out of the curriculum.

pj
chgo
Well, I guess if you half-stroke everything, it won't have much effect. Making excuses for a poorly drawn diagram doesn't cut it. How about that person saying something like --- I DIDN'T CONSIDER DRAWING A PROPER STANCE WHEN I DREW THE DIAGRAM. THANKS! I DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THAT STANCE POTENTIALLY CAUSING SHOULDER PAIN. But no. That's not the response, is it?

I always gladly yield when better information than mine is presented. I don't have the fragile ego that so many posters here have who insist on getting defensive when corrected, so yes, I exaggerated a bit intentionally as a response, but extreme fluctuations in cue balance CAN affect overall balance, and particularly feel, especially if the player's weight is drastically forward like that diagram shows. As for my teaching curriculum, I appreciate the advice, but I've got it under control.
 
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Goosekeeper

Active member
Well, I guess if you half-stroke everything, it won't have much effect. Making excuses for a poorly drawn diagram doesn't cut it. How about that person saying something like --- I DIDN'T CONSIDER DRAWING A PROPER STANCE WHEN I DREW THE DIAGRAM. THANKS! I DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THAT STANCE POTENTIALLY CAUSING SHOULDER PAIN. But no. That's not the response, is it?

I always gladly yield when better information than mine is presented. I don't have the fragile ego that so many posters here have who insist on getting defensive when corrected, so yes, I exaggerated a bit intentionally as a response, but extreme fluctuations in cue balance CAN affect overall balance, and particularly feel, especially if the player's weight is drastically forward like that diagram shows. As for my teaching curriculum, I appreciate the advice, but I've got it under control.
Imagine your perfect shooting stance, YOUR perfect stance (one in which 5 second stick man drawings won’t injure their stick shoulders). Now imagine a triangle above, with the focus of that triangle’s weight concentrating more so on the tip of the cue, and less on the back end. And that was the entire point to begin with.

You can complicate it by deviating off topic all you want, for the sake of sounding like a wiseman on AZ. But, I’ll tell you this, whoever you are, I’ll take Randy Mobley’s word and expertise on the anatomy of cues and how variations effect playability over yours any day.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Imagine your perfect shooting stance, YOUR perfect stance (one in which 5 second stick man drawings won’t injure their stick shoulders). Now imagine a triangle above, with the focus of that triangle’s weight concentrating more so on the tip of the cue, and less on the back end. And that was the entire point to begin with.

You can complicate it by deviating off topic all you want, for the sake of sounding like a wiseman on AZ. But, I’ll tell you this, whoever you are, I’ll take Randy Mobley’s word and expertise on the anatomy of cues and how variations effect playability over yours any day.
Hey, who's knocking Randy Mobley's word? I'm certainly not. I just think that if you're going to draw a diagram of a player in a stance, then make it right. Instead of being lazy, and not taking a few seconds to find out who I am, maybe you should take the time to learn who I am. Actually, it's you who are anonymous --- not me.
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
FYI, Fran has been a prominent, accomplished and highly respected pro player and instructor for decades. She and I have gotten prickly with each other on occasion - but I’m one of the many who respect her and her knowledge of the game, so I get over it and try to learn from her. Try that - you’ll be rewarded.

pj
chgo
Thanks Patrick. I have a lot of respect for you and want you to know it works both ways. I never take any of our debates personally and I'm glad you don't either. I've learned plenty from you. You fill in the gaps for me scientifically where I lack in knowledge, and Bob of course, as well.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Thanks Patrick. I have a lot of respect for you and want you to know it works both ways. I never take any of our debates personally and I'm glad you don't either. I've learned plenty from you. You fill in the gaps for me scientifically where I lack in knowledge, and Bob of course, as well.
Debate is generally the best way to get closer to the truth. Sometimes the path is a little rough.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
The back stroke primarily uses the triceps muscles, while the forward stroke uses the biceps. The balance point of the cue, in relation to where your grip hand is postioned, would affect the tension of these muscles. So, changing the balance point of the cue would cause a slight physical change in the feel of the stroke, because the "normal" muscle reaction/tension will have been altered.

It seems logical to assume that a change in how the stroke feels could also change/affect stroke mechanics. In other words, a slight difference in muscle tension could cause a change in how the stroke is delivered.
 

3kushn

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well I think how something feels can also be considered physical. I've had some clients with wobbly tendencies shoot straighter when I would hand them a back-weighted cue. I think it may help keep the hand and arm steadier and on track as opposed to lighter in the back end. I have also found that front-weighted cues help when performing some finesse shots where the focus is on the front end of the cue.A

Well I think how something feels can also be considered physical. I've had some clients with wobbly tendencies shoot straighter when I would hand them a back-weighted cue. I think it may help keep the hand and arm steadier and on track as opposed to lighter in the back end. I have also found that front-weighted cues help when performing some finesse shots where the focus is on the front end of the cue.
A well known coach and instructor told me after looking at my really light cue that "a light cue is harder to deliver a straight stroke.

Harry Sims told me his theory that a rearward balanced cue offers more power since we all have more strength pulling an object than pushing with our arms. I have no evidence, just passing some possible worthless info I've heard on the subject.
 
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garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A well known coach and instructor told me after looking at my really light cue that "a light cue is harder to deliver a straight stroke.

Harry Sims told me his theory that a rearward balanced cue offers more power since we all have more strength pulling an object than pushing with our arms. I have no evidence, just passing some possible worthless info I've heard on the subject.
We as humans are FAR more effective pushing an object vs. pulling it.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
Tell that to someone who plays tug-of-war. ;)

In any case, calling the action of moving a cue forward as either pulling or pushing is nonsensical. And pointless.

A player's muscle memory might disagree with you.

If you change cue weight or change the balance point of the cue, the muscles used to move the cue back forth could feel the difference, which could affect the fine mechanics of the stroke, despite you believing it's a nonsensical or pointless factor.
 

Mensabum

Well-known member
Interesting discussion. When I started playing again after decades away from the game, I also dug into this topic a bit. I have long arms, big hands, and grip the cue at the end of the buttcap, with a longish stroke and definitely prefer reward balance point, about 17" from the buttcap and also older style fatter butts in the 1.28-1.30" diameter range. But it seems that most modern cues are more neutral or forward balanced with tipping point in the 18.5-19.5" zone and slimmer butts in the 1.25" diameter zone. Most older full splice, house cues etc - tended to have fatter butts and be more reward balanced and snooker players tend to prefer 17-18" balance points. Here's a snooker forum discussion on the topic. It does seem true that for finesse shots off the rail etc - heavier shaft can be helpful. Seems to be no perfect answer, it's all down to one's personal anatomy and subjective preferences like most attributes of a cue. Perhaps pool will evolve to be like golf, and we end up with a bag of cues for different types of shots - seems most players are already have break cues, jump cues and playing cues, so it's not too far fetched of a concept o_O

Finally, this article is the most interesting info I've found on the topic. I think its from Bob Meucci from many years ago and argues quite strongly for rearward balanced cues.

Cheers
Hmmm... Thin cut, center table w a lot of outside?? Hey Caddy! Hand me my D-9 w soft tip. Gotta draw full table out of the corner for shape?? Hey Caddy! Hand me the DH-3.
Money ball for the win?? Hey Caddy! Hand me my trusty Scruggs!!!
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
A player's muscle memory might disagree with you.

If you change cue weight or change the balance point of the cue, the muscles used to move the cue back forth could feel the difference, which could affect the fine mechanics of the stroke, despite you believing it's a nonsensical or pointless factor.
My point is that calling the motion "pulling" or "pushing" doesn't change what the arm does. I agree completely that the balance of a cue can be very important to how the cue feels and how easy it is for the player to use, mostly due to what they are used to.
 

BC21

https://www.playpoolbetter.com
Gold Member
Silver Member
My point is that calling the motion "pulling" or "pushing" doesn't change what the arm does. I agree completely that the balance of a cue can be very important to how the cue feels and how easy it is for the player to use, mostly due to what they are used to.

Yeah, I agree. I remember the thread that "debated" the whole "pulling or pushing" when referring to moving the cue forward.

Fact is, people can call it whichever they want, but pulling or pushing is best defined by the action of the arm muscles being used in relation to where the balance point of the cue is located, which is typically ahead of the grip hand. So moving the cue forward is a physical "pushing" motion, while moving it backward is a physical "pulling" motion.

If the balance point of the cue is changed, but the player's grip hand remains in the same postion, it could physical affect the cue's delivery. Because if the stroke feels different, feels abnormal, we are likely going to consciously try to "fix" it or make it feel normal, which is not good for performance.
 

Coos Cues

Coos Cues
The difference between a front and rear weighted cue feel in your hands is remarkably small. Most cues in the 18-20 once area fall within a range that's inside of an inch.
 
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