PIVOT POINTS & DEFLECTION amount on cues

JoeyA

JoeyA

Efren's Mini-Tourn BACKER
Silver Member
Platinum Billiards has an interesting chart which shows calculations for pivot points on different shafts and for the amount of cue ball deflection that you might expect on different shafts up to over 4 feet away. (50"). I don't know why there is no calculation for 6 or 7 feet but I thought some of you might want to review the chart to get more familiar with the pivot points of different shafts.

http://www.platinumbilliards.com/rating_deflect.php

Do these pivot points vary from what you have found in your own testing? If so by how much?

Thanks,
JoeyA
 
Thanks for the link!

Interesting chart. I was considering the Tiger X-Shaft and wondered how it compared to my OB-1. What a difference. The OB-1 is 19.3% LESS than average deflection with a 12.3" pivot and the X is 3.5% MORE than average deflection with a 9.4" pivot. I would probably have a hard time adjusting to the X after playing with the OB-1 for almost two years, even though it sounds like it has a solid it.
 
I use the X shaft, as well as a dime radius and the tip shape couldnt make that much differance, Im not sure how the tests were performed but I wouldnt say they are rock solid results..

Id like to know the test criteria..

If you have watched the Meucci black dot video's, Meucci claims a broomstick with a Black dot outperformed the 314, is that true? Bob did Video the results..

I would believe video evidence before I would rely on a chart, and FYI I think the Meucci evidence doesnt hold water

SPINDOKTOR



Vinnie said:
Interesting chart. I was considering the Tiger X-Shaft and wondered how it compared to my OB-1. What a difference. The OB-1 is 19.3% LESS than average deflection with a 12.3" pivot and the X is 3.5% MORE than average deflection with a 9.4" pivot. I would probably have a hard time adjusting to the X after playing with the OB-1 for almost two years, even though it sounds like it has a solid it.
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SPINDOKTOR said:
I use the X shaft, as well as a dime radius and the tip shape couldnt make that much differance, Im not sure how the tests were performed but I wouldnt say they are rock solid results..

Id like to know the test criteria..

If you have watched the Meucci black dot video's, Meucci claims a broomstick with a Black dot outperformed the 314, is that true? Bob did Video the results..

I would believe video evidence before I would rely on a chart, and FYI I think the Meucci evidence doesnt hold water

SPINDOKTOR
Click to expand...

I have to believe that Meucci is biased in their analysis while Platinum Billiards could be considered an independent tester.
 
Do these pivot points vary from what you have found in your own testing? If so by how much?
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The low squirt cues I've tested have pivot points considerably longer than those shown by Platinum. For instance my 314 Predator had a pivot point greater than 20 inches.

I don't trust their measurements, but I can't say why they're so different from my own.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
The low squirt cues I've tested have pivot points considerably longer than those shown by Platinum. For instance my 314 Predator had a pivot point greater than 20 inches.

I don't trust their measurements, but I can't say why they're so different from my own.

pj
chgo
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Hay Patrick, it could be because they used a robotic arm. We know that Robotic arms have difficulty mimicking the grip of a human and that could influence it possibly, but you're right though, I've found the 314's to have pivot points much farther back.

Jaden
 
the x shaft platinum tested was a very old version. the new x shafts supposedly have less deflection, but they haven't been tested yet afaik.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
The low squirt cues I've tested have pivot points considerably longer than those shown by Platinum. For instance my 314 Predator had a pivot point greater than 20 inches.

I don't trust their measurements, but I can't say why they're so different from my own.


pj
chgo
Click to expand...


How did you perform the test and lets your chart so we can make our own assumptions. Platinum billiards is very clear on how their tests are performed, perhaps there is a liability issue here.
 
the person who made my stick measures characteristics of any stick brought in for repair and also any that he makes. He has a nice chart with all of them.
I was suprised to see the huge variance in predator shafts since they are supposed to be more uniform that a typical solid shaft. I will ask him to let me know if he gets som OB1 shafts to test in the near future and see if they have a large variance.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
The low squirt cues I've tested have pivot points considerably longer than those shown by Platinum. For instance my 314 Predator had a pivot point greater than 20 inches.
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I found the same...that the low deflection shafts pivot more towards the joint, and the one piece shafts pivot around 12 inches...house cues and straight tapered shafts pivot around 6-8 inches...approximately.

Jaden said:
Hay Patrick, it could be because they used a robotic arm.
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I would agree here as well. I typically suggest that regardless of what Platinum has advertised, it's important to test the pivot points yourself and see what you arrive at for consistent and repeatable results for your stroke.
 
Majic said:
How did you perform the test and lets your chart so we can make our own assumptions. Platinum billiards is very clear on how their tests are performed, perhaps there is a liability issue here.
Click to expand...

I did various tests on the Predator, including with a mechanical stroker. I don't have any records and I only remember the approximate average of the tests (more than 20") - none of them were close to the 11.8" that Platinum measured for a 314.

What liability issue?

pj
chgo

EDIT: By the way, the mechanical stroker was a "cradle" for the shaft to lie in (without the butt) that rode on a teflon-coated precision aluminum track so it glided smoothly back and forth, perfectly straight, level and accurate. Shots were made by "stroking" the shaft along the track by hand, providing a realistic human grip for the test but somewhat variable speed control - fortunately speed didn't seem to matter to the results.
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
I did various tests on the Predator, including with a mechanical stroker. I don't have any records and I only remember the approximate average of the tests (more than 20") - none of them were close to the 11.8" that Platinum measured for a 314.

What liability issue?

pj
chgo

EDIT: By the way, the mechanical stroker was a "cradle" for the shaft to lie in (without the butt) that rode on a teflon-coated precision aluminum track so it glided smoothly back and forth, perfectly straight, level and accurate. Shots were made by "stroking" the shaft along the track by hand, providing a realistic human grip for the test but somewhat variable speed control - fortunately speed didn't seem to matter to the results.
Click to expand...

As I've mentioned before, I am not a big user of BHE but if a cue has a 20" pivot point, doesn't that mean that you have to have a 20" long bridge in order to use BHE effectively?

JoeyA
 
JoeyA said:
As I've mentioned before, I am not a big user of BHE but if a cue has a 20" pivot point, doesn't that mean that you have to have a 20" long bridge in order to use BHE effectively?

JoeyA
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Yep. If your low squirt cue has a 20" pivot point, but you pivot it at your 10" bridge, you'll shift your aim twice as much as you need to for squirt, and you'll hit outside spin shots too thin and inside spin shots too thick.

If your high squirt cue has a 5" pivot point, but you pivot it at your 10" bridge, you'll shift your aim half as much as you need to for squirt, and you'll hit outside spin shots too thick and inside spin shots too thin.

pj
chgo
 
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I think I need to back up and punt, because I just recieved a Meucci sneaky that is blowing my mind as far as deflection, I think I have the cue Meucci intended to mass produce, I just recieved it today, and Im going to do some tests, Id like to compare this red dot, with a 314-2 as well as the Tiger X shaft, I'll let you guy's set the criteria, and I will test and report with unbiased findings

sound ok?

SPINDOKTOR

P.S. PJ, Id really be interested in hearing test criteria, so lay it on me.. :D
 
JoeyA said:
As I've mentioned before, I am not a big user of BHE but if a cue has a 20" pivot point, doesn't that mean that you have to have a 20" long bridge in order to use BHE effectively?
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There is also FHE of Front Hand English where you aim dead center, keep your back hand still, move your front hand a little left/right for the amount of english you want, then shoot.

I prefer a low deflection cue for this very reason. When the cue ball is on or near the rail, it is impossible to make a 10" bridge. But with a cue that has a pivot point way back, FHE works just fine for me!
 
Bingo! That is my understanding of how to best bridge with a low deflection cue. Front hand English FHE.

3 ways to apply English...

1. Parallel shift
2. BHE, best for normal deflection cues.
3. FHE, best for low deflection cues.

The pivot point for some low deflection cues can be huge...maybe 48"...so its virtually impossible to determine the pivot point by moving your bridge and shooting table length shots while recording the deflection.

I think Platinum's data is flawed for low deflection cues. I havent seen a good explanation of how that made their measurements.

Deflection is hard to measure. If you shoot table length shots...you have to minimize cb squirt, so best to shoot with a fast cb speed. Deflection is generally not a function of speed.

Id be interested in how others attempt to measure or quantify a cues deflection.
 
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