"Pivot to Center Ball"

[champ2107]

Originally Posted by SpiderWebComm
be able to identify the correct shot circle and pivot along that arc (and let the pivot point work itself out)

I have seen you throw this terminoligy out there a few times....You seem to be the only one that uses it.

Could you please explain the meaning of "shot circle" and "arc"? and how does that let the pivot point work itself out?

Thanx

Shot circle, i think he means is the aim line and ctel, your visual perception behind the balls and once you have picked up the visuals you are now standing on the arc. Im just taking a shot at this and probably wrong?

 

[cleary]

The point is that you get different post-pivot aim lines depending on where you pivot the cue. Do you not agree that given the same pre-pivot cue line, you'll have a different post-pivot aim line if you pivot at 8" compared to pivoting at 10" or 12"?

Mathematically it would have to be a different degree rotation, of course. Does that stop the object ball from going in the hole? Nope...

The funniest part of about all these arguments is that people try to disprove these systems as if we only BELIEVE they work instead of using them on a daily basis. If they didn't work, we would never win, go broke and the results would be clear. That's not the case.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I have seen you throw this terminoligy out there a few times....You seem to be the only one that uses it.

Could you please explain the meaning of "shot circle" and "arc"? and how does that let the pivot point work itself out?

Thanx

Well, you obviously have to hit the OB, right? You always pivot with the OB plane in mind. You pretend your cue extends to the OB plane and when you pivot, you "arc" along this plane. I guess guys like Dr. D think that's feel, but it's like tracing a line with a pencil for me. You never pivot ad-hoc randomly. When you scrape along the OB plane, the back of the cue works itself out.

Dave

 

[SpiderWebComm]

No, you just need the pivot point. You only need two points to determine a unique line. The center of the CB and the pivot point. Without determining the pivot point, then you have an infinite number of lines that go through center CB.

Is this now 100% clear to everyone? Is it now obvious that pivot systems are completely ambiguous unless it tells you EXACTLY WHERE TO PIVOT THE CUE?

Not really. Shoot your head 12" to either side and you see an entire different 180 degrees of the CB (which defines the center).

 

[jsp]

Mathematically it would have to be a different degree rotation, of course..

Thanks, that's all I care about for this discussion.

 

[cleary]

Thanks, that's all I care about for this discussion.

You're easy to please. Which pockets are harder, 4.5432" or 4.5324"? I seem to not be able to tell a difference but one of them is smaller.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Spidey:
be able to identify the correct shot circle and pivot along that arc (and let the pivot point work itself out)

BRKNRUN:
I have seen you throw this terminoligy out there a few times....You seem to be the only one that uses it.

LOL. Welcome to Spideyspeak.

BRKNRUN:
Could you please explain the meaning of "shot circle" and "arc"? and how does that let the pivot point work itself out?

Spidey:
Well, you obviously have to hit the OB, right? You always pivot with the OB plane in mind. You pretend your cue extends to the OB plane and when you pivot, you "arc" along this plane. I guess guys like Dr. D think that's feel, but it's like tracing a line with a pencil for me. You never pivot ad-hoc randomly. When you scrape along the OB plane, the back of the cue works itself out.

In other words, "No, I can't".

pj
chgo

 

[Koop]

You're easy to please. Which pockets are harder, 4.5432" or 4.5324"? I seem to not be able to tell a difference but one of them is smaller.

...and God forbid you want to cheat the pocket or shoot center pocket. What then? Better break out my sketches and formulas.

 

[AtLarge]

Well, you obviously have to hit the OB, right? You always pivot with the OB plane in mind. You pretend your cue extends to the OB plane and when you pivot, you "arc" along this plane. I guess guys like Dr. D think that's feel, but it's like tracing a line with a pencil for me. You never pivot ad-hoc randomly. When you scrape along the OB plane, the back of the cue works itself out.

Dave

In Stan's CTE, the cue pivots around the bridging point. So the bridge is the center of an infinite number of concentric circles. To pivot around that bridge point until the cue stick points to the center of the CB, it doesn't matter whether you view it as tracing an arc on one of those concentric circles that is two miles away or two inches away -- you get the same final alignment for the cue stick.

You disagree?

 

[SpiderWebComm]

In Stan's CTE, the cue pivots around the bridging point. So the bridge is the center of an infinite number of concentric circles. To pivot around that bridge point until the cue stick points to the center of the CB, it doesn't matter whether you view it as tracing an arc on one of those concentric circles that is two miles away or two inches away -- you get the same final alignment for the cue stick.

You disagree?

The larger your pivot (say 1/2 ball pivot versus 1/2 tip pivot), the more your pivot arc matters. With a 1/2 tip pivot, the movement is so small, pivot errors are greatly mitigated.

When you start your tip at the CB edge (1/2 ball pivot) and say, a 10-12" bridge--- once you get beyond a certain distance, it's impossible to pivot straight (as if there were a nail through it) from the bridge and make the ball (if it's far enough you'll miss the OB completely). Although your bridge remains static, you can flatten your arc and force a larger circle. This forces the actual pivot point further back in your cue.

Ask PJ how this works--- he renegged on something like a $3000 bet, his cue plus a lifetime banishment - insisting the bridge "HAD" to be the pivot point. He MIA'd for a while until things calmed down and before you knew it, Dr. Dave coined the term "effective pivot length" and made a little page about it on his website.

So, no, the bridge is not always the center of centric circles.

 

[AtLarge]

The larger your pivot (say 1/2 ball pivot versus 1/2 tip pivot), the more your pivot arc matters. With a 1/2 tip pivot, the movement is so small, pivot errors are greatly mitigated.

When you start your tip at the CB edge (1/2 ball pivot) and say, a 10-12" bridge--- once you get beyond a certain distance, it's impossible to pivot straight (as if there were a nail through it) from the bridge and make the ball (if it's far enough you'll miss the OB completely). Although your bridge remains static, you can flatten your arc and force a larger circle. This forces the actual pivot point further back in your cue.

Ask PJ how this works--- he renegged on something like a $3000 bet, his cue plus a lifetime banishment - insisting the bridge "HAD" to be the pivot point. He MIA'd for a while until things calmed down and before you knew it, Dr. Dave coined the term "effective pivot length" and made a little page about it on his website.

So, no, the bridge is not always the center of centric circles.

I'm well aware of that PJ/Spidey "discussion." You "deformed" your bridge to create a pivot point that is behind the bridge. I still don't understand how you can do that systematically.

But I'm not talking about that situation, I'm talking about Stan's CTE, where the pivot is at the bridge. In such situations, talking about some different sort or arcing and a shot circle is irrelevant, right? A pivot to center is simply from one point (the bridge) to another point (center cue ball).

I think talking about a half-ball pivot and arcing on a shot circle and producing a pivot point behind the bridge is confusing in the context of a discussion of Stan's CTE. I do want to learn more about the former, but at this point we're trying to figure out whether the latter is really a reliable way to aim.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Although your bridge remains static, you can flatten your arc and force a larger circle. This forces the actual pivot point further back in your cue.

This might make sense in your language, but how are we English-speaking people supposed to know?

Ask PJ how this works--- he renegged on something like a $3000 bet, his cue plus a lifetime banishment - insisting the bridge "HAD" to be the pivot point. He MIA'd for a while until things calmed down and before you knew it, Dr. Dave coined the term "effective pivot length" and made a little page about it on his website.

Once upon a time I would have said you're lying about this (again), but I've come to realize that you really just don't understand much of what is said to you about this stuff.

pj
chgo

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I'm well aware of that PJ/Spidey "discussion." You "deformed" your bridge to create a pivot point that is behind the bridge. I still don't understand how you can do that systematically.

But I'm not talking about that situation, I'm talking about Stan's CTE, where the pivot is at the bridge. In such situations, talking about some different sort or arcing and a shot circle is irrelevant, right? A pivot to center is simply from one point (the bridge) to another point (center cue ball).

I think talking about a half-ball pivot and arcing on a shot circle and producing a pivot point behind the bridge is confusing in the context of a discussion of Stan's CTE. I do want to learn more about the former, but at this point we're trying to figure out whether the latter is really a reliable way to aim.

It's all the same. The 1/2 tip pivot was chosen for the DVD because it's the easiest to execute and hardest to mess up. It's the most objective in order to do what matters--- make the OB. The smaller the pivot, the more the shot circle stuff is irrelevant.

How do you do that systematically? Easy-- just let the skin move a fraction. The base of your bridge never moves.

 

[cleary]

II still don't understand how you can do that systematically.

People have said the same thing about the Philippino style stroke.

Pivoting is so easy and I really don't understand why its such a drama filled subject. I'm don't fight of this stuff anymore, its just not worth it. I'll add a comment here or there, but its just clear people are thick headed. Thats fine.

If anyone will be at SBE and would like to find out more, just ask.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

This might make sense in your language, but how are we English-speaking people supposed to know?


Once upon a time I would have said you're lying about this (again), but I've come to realize that you really just don't understand much of what is said to you about this stuff.

pj
chgo

Everyone remembers but you.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

So are you saying the bridge is always the pivot point? Are you still saying that???

Since you almost never understand a word I say (or anybody else who makes sense), I'm gonna go with the assumption that I never actually said whatever you think I did.

Based on what I understand

LOL. You're in trouble already.

I knew this long before you and Dr. Dave...

LOL. Sure you did.

The only thing I REALLY don't understand

Is just about everything.

pj
chgo

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Everyone remembers but you.

LOL. Those voices you hear aren't real people.

pj
chgo

 

[trob]

Lol I love these threads. I don't know why there is so much drama over this. I make long tough shots over and over with Ctoe. Hell I even close my eyes without looking back at the object ball after making my pivot and drill shots into the back of the pocket. It definitely works. I have no idea why and don't care. Do I use it? Nope. I don't like all that moving around when I'm down on the ball and I haven't become comfortable with making my pivot with my eyes before going down on the ball. Im starting to think the people on here who argue over whether. It works are the same people that will argue what color the sky is. Lol

 

[jsp]

Well, you obviously have to hit the OB, right? You always pivot with the OB plane in mind. You pretend your cue extends to the OB plane and when you pivot, you "arc" along this plane.

Dave, still trying to figure out what "arc along the OB plane" actually means? Isn't an "arc" simply a portion of a circle when viewed from the top? Isn't the "OB plane" a line when viewed from the top? Is the illustration below close to what you're saying? If so, which arc (A, B, C, D, none of the above) do you pick? Or am I totally off?

 

[Jal]

Dave, still trying to figure out what "arc along the OB plane" actually means? Isn't an "arc" simply a portion of a circle when viewed from the top? Isn't the "OB plane" a line when viewed from the top? Is the illustration below close to what you're saying? If so, which arc (A, B, C, D, none of the above) do you pick? Or am I totally off?

Beautiful illustration, Jsp. Bumping this and hoping for an answer.

Jim