Pivoting and CTE

[lfigueroa]

Lou:

Actually, he did (color you with happy colors, that is). You were colored happy with blue and red. There was an extraneous "/color" tag thrown in there, but hey, Neil was making SURE you were colored in a happy way!

-Sean

Somehow I missed that

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Then that would be for each player to figure out on their own wouldn't it? Of course nothing is one size fits all...

...I totally agree - if it's messing you up then don't do it...

Any technique that people use is at the end of the day a judgement call. The player has to feel right about it before they pull the trigger and if they stick with something that is not allowing them to be successful then it's their own fault.

OK, so basically we're in agreement: it might not work for everyone, or even possibly (probably) the vast majority of players.

CTE could actually hurt your game.

Lou Figueroa
glad we finally cleared
THAT
up

 

[lfigueroa]

How does pivoting affect the stroke?

Because it changes your alignment, and all your stroke components and their relationship to each other.

Imagine a Terminator type armature, and then just move any one component -- say the forearm of the grip arm -- and then try and get the armature into shooting position. If you moved the forearm up, or down, or sideways, all the other components now have to move to accommodate that change. Maybe the wrist has to rotate a bit, the legs must change their footwork, the head ends up a little lower or higher or to one side. There would be more, but that's just for starters.

You end up in a final shooting position but it's when you put the whole Rube Goldberg contraption into motion that you're going to see different results.

I would argue that that is why, every blue moon, we all fall into dead stroke. You've got all the pieces set up just so. But, day-to-day, we being less that perfect, change something -- maybe just one tiny thing -- and that in turn changes everything else and dead stroke goes poof.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I agree. Some players, like Hopkins for example, just "envision the ball going into the pocket" and when they pull the trigger.... it does. Some players were born with a visual perception that others just don't have. Doing anything other than instinct would hamper the magic that's going on.

That said, there are FAR more people (me included) that weren't born with the gift of "see ball, make ball" with exceptional percentages. Pivot systems like CTE and 90/90 will help WAY more people than hurt.

CTE is an exact geometric system. My philosophy is "why feel-aim" when you can exact-aim 100% of the time (with practice).

You're totally correct in saying there's WAY more to pool than aiming. There is. Aiming is only 33% of the equation. The others are stroke and speed. I don't think it's fair to say "what good is CTE when you make every ball and get out of position and not run out?" The fact of the matter is that statement holds true for every style of aiming, not just CTE.

When you ran a handful of 80's this week, you prob never had a hard enough shot to care about aiming. For me, the fact that I no longer sweat aiming only means I can focus on my stroke and speed --- I think that's why I'm getting better by the minute.

So it would appear that you are saying that if you have certain visualization skills, CTE could hamper you... no?

How we can know that there are "far more" people without those skills, or who could not achieve them with a little effort and experience, or who might ultimately benefit from this path more than CTE? How do you know that CTE will benefit "way more" people than be hurt by it?

And believe me, you can't run 80 balls without facing down some very difficult shots and position plays. 14.1 players try and minimize all that, but no one is perfect. And then you have to come with it.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Are you referring to feel and memory as your way of lining to the shot.
Wouldn't that be a system maybe.When someone say's i dont use a system makes me think what are you doing guesstamating the ball in.
Your saying you dont use a system to aim sounds like you dont aim.
Which is false .There is a aiming process going on for you to make the ball,so there is your aiming system.
If not how do you pocket balls without aiming?

Yes, a big part is feel and memory. And yes that would be systematic. But I would not call it an aiming system, because I don't know exactly how it works. I look at the shot and know it's going to go. Not much different than throwing a fast ball right into the catcher's mitt from 90 feet away.

And I play on a table that is a real beeatch -- you can't guestamate a ball in

Lou Figueroa
used to argue this
all the time
with drivermaker

 

[lfigueroa]

My technique document is now 22 pages long. The math document is 31 pages long (1 diagram per page with a short description of what someone is looking at in case they failed geometry in high school). The extended math document (which answers Dr. Dave's 3-shot question) is 51 pages long.

Pah-leese tell me there's going to be an Executive Summary

Lou Figueroa
thought CTE
was supposed to be
a *simple* system

 

[Tramp Steamer]

I'm just curious here, but does a pirouette count instead of a pivot. I've always had a hard time pivoting but I do a damn fine pirouette.

 

[lfigueroa]

Help me out Lou, you don't use aiming systems, you just spend all day in aiming system threads. And a pivot has you confused.

Believe me, you will not find me much in CTE threads and in this case I'm just trying to address one of the physical components of "the system."

And if you can't figure out by now that I have a very clear opinion about the pivot, I can't help you ;-)

Lou Figueroa
obviously not the one
who is confused

 

[lfigueroa]

I'm just curious here, but does a pirouette count instead of a pivot. I've always had a hard time pivoting but I do a damn fine pirouette.

Only if it's a la seconde

Lou Figueroa

 

[8pack]

Yes, a big part is feel and memory. And yes that would be systematic. But I would not call it an aiming system, because I don't know exactly how it works. I look at the shot and know it's going to go. Not much different than throwing a fast ball right into the catcher's mitt from 90 feet away.

And I play on a table that is a real beeatch -- you can't guestamate a ball in

Lou Figueroa
used to argue this
all the time
with drivermaker

First you say you dont you use any aiming system and now dont no excaxtly how it work's.Common......
What it sounds like is your ball to ball aiming.....

 

[lfigueroa]

First you say you dont you use any aiming system and now dont no excaxtly how it work's.Common......
What it sounds like is your ball to ball aiming.....

Do you know why it is that you can throw a baseball with accuracy? Or how about a Frisbee? Basketball? Soccer ball? Football?

Soooo, feel free to call it whatever you like, if it helps you out ;-)

Lou Figueroa

 

[8pack]

..............deleted

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Pah-leese tell me there's going to be an Executive Summary

Lou Figueroa
thought CTE
was supposed to be
a *simple* system

CTE is SIMMMMMMMPLE. Offset and pivot. If someone can't understand that...back to kindergarten. The reason why the technique doc is long, is because I cover EVERYTHING in SUPER detail (overkill, imo). The reason why I chose to be so verbose is that when Hal's gone, that doc is probably the most accurate written record of the system.

Executive Summary.... very good idea. I know you were joking, but I'll do it. Thanks, Lou. I can simplify within one page with accurate info.

Dave

 

[8pack]

..............deleted

 

[JB Cases]

OK, so basically we're in agreement: it might not work for everyone, or even possibly (probably) the vast majority of players.

CTE could actually hurt your game.

Lou Figueroa
glad we finally cleared
THAT
up

No we are not in agreement on these points. I said it's up to each INDIVIDUAL to assess what works for them. Sorry Lou, you can spin the Pentagon's message but not mine.

CTE could be the greatest thing to ever happen to pool. It COULD make 98% of players who try it world beaters. CTE could be the missing link between staying mediocre and becoming a deadly accurate shotmaker.

However until someone tries it they can't know if CTE does this for them. If they never try it then they will never know what it could have done for them.

Or any other aiming method or technique to play the game for that matter.

 

[JB Cases]

Because it changes your alignment, and all your stroke components and their relationship to each other.

Imagine a Terminator type armature, and then just move any one component -- say the forearm of the grip arm -- and then try and get the armature into shooting position. If you moved the forearm up, or down, or sideways, all the other components now have to move to accommodate that change. Maybe the wrist has to rotate a bit, the legs must change their footwork, the head ends up a little lower or higher or to one side. There would be more, but that's just for starters.

You end up in a final shooting position but it's when you put the whole Rube Goldberg contraption into motion that you're going to see different results.

I would argue that that is why, every blue moon, we all fall into dead stroke. You've got all the pieces set up just so. But, day-to-day, we being less that perfect, change something -- maybe just one tiny thing -- and that in turn changes everything else and dead stroke goes poof.

Lou Figueroa

Sorry I still don't understand the analogy?

If you do the chicken dance BEFORE you get down on the shot and then ONCE YOU ARE DOWN you are ROCK SOLID and dead on the the aiming line what does it matter whether you did 3 backflips prior to that point?

In fact I know a player who specializes in the theatrics BEFORE he gets down to shoot.

When he steps to the table he plants his foot on the aiming line. If he wants to make the shot he puts his foot dead on the right line, if he wants to miss it he puts his foot down slightly off. Then he stands there and "agonizes", and whines, and pump strokes, and gets up and gets down, and back up, turns around, makes a joke, waves his cue, etc, etc.....he has a whole repertoire. When he finally get down on the shot though he is ROCK SOLID and DEAD ON LINE.

He taught me this technique as part of his hustling 101 lessons.

So I respectfully disagree Lou. I don't subscribe to the idea that every little thing you do PRIOR to getting in the shooting position affects the stroke - WITH THE EXCEPTION of doing things which make you contorted and unable to stroke properly and using CTE certainly and unequivocally does not do this to the player.

Your use of terms like "Rube Goldberg contraption" to unfairly characterize CTE is misleading. The actual process is simple and fast.

It's literally 1,2,3 and you're down on the shot in the shooting position on the proper aiming line.

Some people "get it" right away and others need personal attention. Same thing with Ghost Ball and any other concept in pool.

 

[shanis42]

CTE Document

I would love to get a look at your CTE Document Spidey. I have always been interested in the CTE posts, I have been lurking on CTE posts for years just soaking up information as it comes by. I only use CTE on shots with a little more cut than I can look at dead on. Everything else is plop and pull the trigger.

Is there a timetable for the documents publication, or is its publication going to be controlled by factors outside of your control?

 

[lfigueroa]

CTE is SIMMMMMMMPLE. Offset and pivot. If someone can't understand that...back to kindergarten. The reason why the technique doc is long, is because I cover EVERYTHING in SUPER detail (overkill, imo). The reason why I chose to be so verbose is that when Hal's gone, that doc is probably the most accurate written record of the system.

Executive Summary.... very good idea. I know you were joking, but I'll do it. Thanks, Lou. I can simplify within one page with accurate info.

Dave

Not joking. I think a quick and dirty summary would be useful.

Lou Figueroa
looking forward
to it

 

[lfigueroa]

No we are not in agreement on these points. I said it's up to each INDIVIDUAL to assess what works for them. Sorry Lou, you can spin the Pentagon's message but not mine.

CTE could be the greatest thing to ever happen to pool. It COULD make 98% of players who try it world beaters. CTE could be the missing link between staying mediocre and becoming a deadly accurate shotmaker.

However until someone tries it they can't know if CTE does this for them. If they never try it then they will never know what it could have done for them.

Or any other aiming method or technique to play the game for that matter.

I didn't spin anything, John. I used your very own words

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Sorry I still don't understand the analogy?

If you do the chicken dance BEFORE you get down on the shot and then ONCE YOU ARE DOWN you are ROCK SOLID and dead on the the aiming line what does it matter whether you did 3 backflips prior to that point?

In fact I know a player who specializes in the theatrics BEFORE he gets down to shoot.

When he steps to the table he plants his foot on the aiming line. If he wants to make the shot he puts his foot dead on the right line, if he wants to miss it he puts his foot down slightly off. Then he stands there and "agonizes", and whines, and pump strokes, and gets up and gets down, and back up, turns around, makes a joke, waves his cue, etc, etc.....he has a whole repertoire. When he finally get down on the shot though he is ROCK SOLID and DEAD ON LINE.

He taught me this technique as part of his hustling 101 lessons.

So I respectfully disagree Lou. I don't subscribe to the idea that every little thing you do PRIOR to getting in the shooting position affects the stroke - WITH THE EXCEPTION of doing things which make you contorted and unable to stroke properly and using CTE certainly and unequivocally does not do this to the player.

Your use of terms like "Rube Goldberg contraption" to unfairly characterize CTE is misleading. The actual process is simple and fast.

It's literally 1,2,3 and you're down on the shot in the shooting position on the proper aiming line.

Some people "get it" right away and others need personal attention. Same thing with Ghost Ball and any other concept in pool.

I was trying to use the Rube Goldberg analogy to describe *any* pool player getting into shooting position and hoping that all the limbs and joints -- from the feet up to their two little peepers -- all somehow perfectly align themselves, each time they drape themselves all over a pool table and try and be accurate in pocketing balls and maneuvering the cue ball with a piece of wood with a leather tip.

When you think about it, it's pretty amazing any of us make a ball

Lou Figueroa