*Player of the decade*

[JarnoV]

CAREFUL!! You're now calling people who don't share the same viewpoint as you, as "ignorant" (your exact word) or as "stupid" (implied in the overall context in how you worded the sentence).

If you read his sentence carefully, you'll notice that he said that the opinion is ignorant. Which to me seems like a fair assessment if someone votes for their favorite player regardless of other considerations. Calling an opinion ignorant is not even an insult, not to the opinion nor to the person having it. Ignorant opinion is just uninformed.

Take a dictionary definition for 'ignorant': 3. Unaware or uninformed. (For an example.)

Like Marvel said, everyone is entitled to their opinion. But the said opinion can still be ignorant, uninformed.

 

[sfleinen]

Calling an opinion uninformed is the same as calling person who made it uninformed

If you read his sentence carefully, you'll notice that he said that the opinion is ignorant. Which to me seems like a fair assessment if someone votes for their favorite player regardless of other considerations. Calling an opinion ignorant is not even an insult, not to the opinion nor to the person having it. Ignorant opinion is just uninformed.

Take a dictionary definition for 'ignorant': 3. Unaware or uninformed. (For an example.)

Like Marvel said, everyone is entitled to their opinion. But the said opinion can still be ignorant, uninformed.

JarnoV:

First, thank you for your reply.

Second, your defense of Marcus sentence is a technical one -- a coy evasion. So you (or Marcus) are DISCONNECTING a person's opinion from the person who has it, and calling only that opinion ignorant? That's like you saying something to me that I disagree with, me subsequently removing the hat off your head, placing it on the table in front of me, and then talking to the hat, telling it how ignorant/uninformed it is. Marcus did call a couple posters on here -- most notably Jay Helfert -- uninformed, so your technicality defense (of disconnecting the opinion from the person who made it) is a wash.

Now, before this thread now takes a left turn and starts to go into a back-and-forth diatribe of "how somebody said something," know that my point was made. Marcus' efforts to weld his choice Mika as the "only correct choice and if you don't pick Mika, you are uninformed" is having the wrong effect -- he's starting to p*ss people off. Let's not get into a silly diatribe of "he said, she said, and you don't understand," ok?

Respectfully,
-Sean

 

[JarnoV]

Now, before this thread now takes a left turn and starts to go into a back-and-forth diatribe of "how somebody said something," know that my point was made. Marcus' efforts to weld his choice Mika as the "only correct choice and if you don't pick Mika, you are uninformed" is having the wrong effect -- he's starting to p*ss people off. Let's not get into a silly diatribe of "he said, she said, and you don't understand," ok?

OK, agreed.

Let me put it this way:

According to the merits, Efren, Ralf and Mika (in no particular order ;-)) are the three most viable candidates for POD title. There may be few others, but that's about it. Now, clearly there is no wide agreement which of these three players should be the POD. Therefore people argue over their respective merits.

But to vote a player that obviously doesn't qualify for the title (say, Corey Deuel or, say, Oliver Ortmann) is uninformed, however entitled one is to do so. (And one is entitled!)

Agreed also?

(Maybe this isn't exactly what Marvel thinks about the whole issue, but that was the point I was trying to make.)

respect-too-fully, y'rs jarno

 

[sfleinen]

OK, agreed.

Let me put it this way:

According to the merits, Efren, Ralf and Mika (in no particular order ;-)) are the three most viable candidates for POD title. There may be few others, but that's about it. Now, clearly there is no wide agreement which of these three players should be the POD. Therefore people argue over their respective merits.

But to vote a player that obviously doesn't qualify for the title (say, Corey Deuel or, say, Oliver Ortmann) is uninformed, however entitled one is to do so. (And one is entitled!)

Agreed also?

(Maybe this isn't exactly what Marvel thinks about the whole issue, but that was the point I was trying to make.)

respect-too-fully, y'rs jarno

Jarno:

Ok, now we're getting somewhere, and I thank you for your understanding of both sides of the fence. Your explanation -- of the opinions that e.g. a vote for Corey for POTD when Efren/Mika/Ralf are clearly the top candidates according to "facts" -- is uninformed, explains Marcus' stance well. Thank you!

However, like I said, calling someone's opinion uninformed (actually the word used was ignorant, which has several different meanings, not all of them very nice in American English) is the same as calling the person who has that opinion that very same word. Although I'm a natural born U.S. citizen, I speak/write (or dabble) in a couple different languages -- Russian, Spanish, and a little bit of Italian. I don't think American English is that different from other languages in that it's frowned upon when somebody attempts to exploit grammar technicalities, to sidestep confrontations with the person who spoke/wrote the thing the other person is disagreeing with. Would that be correct? Is that a fair synopsis?

Respect-[too x 2]-fully,
-Sean

 

[KoolKat9Lives]

You guys are adorable.

Muah!

 

[Marvel]

you haven't even acknowledged all of the stats and tourney finishes that Roy put on here that aren't even in the AZ lists. He has provided about 80 tourneys over the decade that Ralf has finished in the top 4 in that is not included in the AZ lists. With those tourneys Ralf would be ahead of Mika in money over the decade and far ahead in average tourney finish.

Not to mention the amount of 1st place finishes he's had. The only argument you make is for Mika having 4 majors and Ralf 1 out of the 2 majors that you state, IN YOUR OPINION, are the biggest.

If you include all of the other major tourneys that are considered big by others' standards with just as good of fields (if not better than) the US Open, then Ralf dominates. I'm talking about tourneys like the DCC 9-ball and the like.

I just answered that to Roy, and I must add, that neither is Mika's or Efren's all wins/accomplishments listed there (sure more than Ralfs, but those not listed are small wins anyway)

One of the funny things is, that you're not even including Efren in your statements.

Now you say that I'm only basing my opinions on those two biggest Majors - which indeed are the hardest to win and the most prestigious. But, you are lacking the later facts which I have brought into this discussion.


Corvette, here is some more facts, can you answer these please:


First I want to say, that you cannot count all tournaments as Majors, if they have top pros. Even if you would, Ralf wouldn't change his chances dramatically, he might win the cathegory "most medium size tournaments wins", or something like that (which he didn't, which I later find out, he lost to both of the gentlemen, again, which I'm proving in this post.). We cannot count them all, but we can see all of them in the Money List, which is of course included in the over all speculation.

If you take Major Title wins, (WPA World Championships and US.Open 9-B, notice that I added 8-Ball & 14.1. WC in that list):

1. Mika 4 times, 2. Ralf 2 times, 3. Efren 1 time.

(if you take the less respected 8-WC away, which Mika haven't even played, Ralf and Efren lose one points each)



If you take the "100K+ Pots", 100 000$ or more, it's all Efren.

Efren 3 times, Mika & Ralf 0 times.


If you take the "40K+ Pots", 40 000$ or more wins, it's

1. Mika 5 times , 2. Efren 4 times, 3. Ralf 1 time


If you take the "40K+ High Finishes", which paid you 40K or more, win or high finish, it's:

1. Mika 7 times, 2. Efren 5 times, 3. Ralf 3 times.


Now, I'm going to even make some extra investigation (lol), and check DCC wins and those tournament wins which has paid them 10K-40K. Also I'll check high finishes from range 10K-40K, so we can find if Ralf manages to beat even either of them in that level (and don't worry, in Europe there hasn't been these kind of tournaments, Ralf is not missing anything):

(LOL, side note; the more I investigate, the more funnier this comes.) Check this:

DCC Wins + Wins in the range 10K-39,999K (I underline, that 40K + wins are not included, where Mika and Efren beat Ralf already):

1. Efren 30 times, 2. Mika 12 times, 3. Ralf 10 times. (lol)

Wins + High finishes added 10K-39,999K:

1. Efren 34 times, 2. Mika 20 times, 3. Ralf 17 times.


(Note, I added this years WCOP, which gave Efren a win and Ralf a High Finish, I also added Mika's Norwegian 9-Ball Challenge -06, which paid him 10K I did not count Mosconi Cups, but even if I did, they wouldn't change the result anyhow. Efren's margin would just come from large to bit less large. )


So, Corvette, you said that "If you take DCC and other similar tournaments, then Ralf dominates". Well, I just proved you, (and my self at the same time) that no he doesn't. Efren dominates, by wide margin, and Ralf again, places third after Mika.


Then there are still Cathegories Money List, and Consistency, which I have proved earlier, and that goes clearly the Efren, Mika as second.
If you add all the missing European and other tournaments, Ralf might just catch Mika, (might also not), but won't be half way near Efren.


Corvette, Roy and others. It's no more matter of opinion. There are all the facts needed on the table. Ralf doesn't win any of the cathegories, he's second once, and last at the rest.
If you still want to count the 0$-9,999$ wins and "high finishes", then go ahead. If you'll do that, you'll just make my earlier joke about Tiger not finishing in the Top 10 as the "Golfer of the Decade" true, with your view point.

I have proven all my statements right, but yes, the more I looked at it, the more it started to like Efren.
If the Official Major Titles weigh most, then Mika indeed is the POTD. If we look mor throughoutly, it's clearly Efren.
Ralf is anyway the distinguished third

 

[sfleinen]

Two words: "good grief."

<sigh>

 

[JarnoV]

I don't think American English is that different from other languages in that it's frowned upon when somebody attempts to exploit grammar technicalities, to sidestep confrontations with the person who spoke/wrote the thing the other person is disagreeing with. Would that be correct? Is that a fair synopsis?

Yeah, it's quite fair.

(But I still wish to live in a world, where I could say that some opinion is ignorant without anyone intepreting it as an insult of their intelligence or knowledge in general.)

 

[sfleinen]

Yeah, it's quite fair.

(But I still wish to live in a world, where I could say that some opinion is ignorant without anyone intepreting it as an insult of their intelligence or knowledge in general.)

That's Utopian thinking, Jarno. (Or perhaps "Hear no evil, see no evil.") We both know human nature is what it is, and "reality" is that train connected to that pretty light you're admiring, heading in a collision path towards you.

 

[corvette1340]

I just answered that to Roy, and I must add, that neither is Mika's or Efren's all wins/accomplishments listed there (sure more than Ralfs, but those not listed are small wins anyway)

One of the funny things is, that you're not even including Efren in your statements.

Now you say that I'm only basing my opinions on those two biggest Majors - which indeed are the hardest to win and the most prestigious. But, you are lacking the later facts which I have brought into this discussion.


Corvette, here is some more facts, can you answer these please:


First I want to say, that you cannot count all tournaments as Majors, if they have top pros. Even if you would, Ralf wouldn't change his chances dramatically, he might win the cathegory "most medium size tournaments wins", or something like that (which he didn't, which I later find out, he lost to both of the gentlemen, again, which I'm proving in this post.). We cannot count them all, but we can see all of them in the Money List, which is of course included in the over all speculation.

If you take Major Title wins, (WPA World Championships and US.Open 9-B, notice that I added 8-Ball & 14.1. WC in that list):

Mika 4p, Ralf 2p, Efren 1p.

(if you take the less respected 8-WC away, which Mika haven't even played, Ralf and Efren lose one points each)



If you take the "100K+ Pots", 100 000$ or more, it's all Efren.

Efren 3p, Mika&Ralf 0p.


If you take the "40K+ Pots", 40 000$ or more wins, it's

1.Mika 5p, 2. Efren 4p, 3. Ralf 1p


If you take the "40K+ High Finishes", which paid you 40K or more, win or high finish, it's:

1. Mika 7p, 2.Efren 5p, 3.Ralf 3p.


Now, I'm going to even make some extra investigation (lol), and check DCC wins and those tournament wins which has paid them 10K-40K. Also I'll check high finishes from range 10K-40K, so we can find if Ralf manages to beat even either of them in that level (and don't worry, in Europe there hasn't been these kind of tournaments, Ralf is not missing anything):

(LOL, side note; the more I investigate, the more funnier this comes.) Check this:

DCC Wins + Wins in the range 10K-39,999K (I underline, that 40K + wins are not included, where Mika and Efren beat Ralf already):

1. Efren 30p, 2. Mika 12p, 3. Ralf 10p. (lol)

Wins + High finishes added 10K-39,999K:

1. Efren 34p, 2. Mika 20p, 3. Ralf 17p.


(Note, I added this years WCOP, which gave Efren a win and Ralf a High Finish, I also added Mika's Norwegian 9-Ball Challenge -06, which paid him 10K I did not count Mosconi Cups, but even if I did, they wouldn't change the result anyhow. Efren's margin would just come from large to bit less large. )


So, Corvette, you said that "If you take DCC and other similar tournaments, then Ralf dominates". Well, I just proved you, (and my self at the same time) that no he doesn't. Efren dominates, by wide margin, and Ralf again, places third after Mika.


Then there are still Cathegories Money List, and Consistency, which I have proved earlier, and that goes clearly the Efren, Mika as second.
If you add all the missing European and other tournaments, Ralf might just catch Mika, (might also not), but won't be half way near Efren.


Corvette, Roy and others. It's no more matter of opinion. There are all the facts needed on the table. Ralf doesn't win any of the cathegories, he's second once, and last at the rest.
If you still want to count the 0$-9,999$ wins and "high finishes", then go ahead. If you'll do that, you'll just make my earlier joke about Tiger not finishing in the Top 10 as the "Golfer of the Decade" true, with your view point.

I have proven all my statements right, but yes, the more I looked at it, the more it started to like Efren.
If the Official Major Titles weigh most, then Mika indeed is the POTD. If we look mor throughoutly, it's clearly Efren.
Ralf is anyway the distinguished third

instead of assigning your own weighted formula points just list exactly how many of each finish they each had, then add all of the wins and finishes for $5K or higher that each of them had. I've already done this and it isn't even close. Ralf almost doubles both of them.

 

[Marvel]

JarnoV:

First, thank you for your reply.

Second, your defense of Marcus sentence is a technical one -- a coy evasion. So you (or Marcus) are DISCONNECTING a person's opinion from the person who has it, and calling only that opinion ignorant? That's like you saying something to me that I disagree with, me subsequently removing the hat off your head, placing it on the table in front of me, and then talking to the hat, telling it how ignorant/uninformed it is. Marcus did call a couple posters on here -- most notably Jay Helfert -- uninformed, so your technicality defense (of disconnecting the opinion from the person who made it) is a wash.

Now, before this thread now takes a left turn and starts to go into a back-and-forth diatribe of "how somebody said something," know that my point was made. Marcus' efforts to weld his choice Mika as the "only correct choice and if you don't pick Mika, you are uninformed" is having the wrong effect -- he's starting to p*ss people off. Let's not get into a silly diatribe of "he said, she said, and you don't understand," ok?

Respectfully,
-Sean

Sean,

I'm starting to get disappointed at you. I didn't call anyone "stupid" or anything like that.
Thanks Jarno for trying to make somethings clear, but certainly, I only meant that people are not well informed (=uninformed), and they are basing their votes and the statements for their feelings what they have. The same went with Jay, if he'd look the AZ money list or read the post which stated facts, he'd not put what he did. In my previous post, I have stated clear facts, from almost all view points what you can think if you want to list who is better player than the other.

Sean, I'm starting to think that you're the emotional one. I'm having good time here, you mis-interpreted me yesterday, and you mis-interpretedd me today also.

If you would have read more carefully, you would have noticed "my moods and meanings" better, but espeacially, that I haven't even been touting for Mika since more than half of my posts, but taken all facts possible in count, and been liking more and more Efren.

What ever I said to jay or anybody, was based on "tongue in the cheeck" attitude, and the fact that I knew the facts. Not for even an opinion, like you are stating now.

You're the one who owns apology here.

 

[corvette1340]

oh, and also

Ralf 83
Mika 38

 

[sfleinen]

Marcus:

I'm not even going to entertain you by replying to this, because you aren't even understanding the spirit of my replies. I'm only going to ask you one question. How old are you?

This is my last reply to this thread. On to better things -- this thread has long wasted my time.
-Sean

Sean,

I'm starting to get disappointed at you. I didn't call anyone "stupid" or anything like that.
Thanks Jarno for trying to make somethings clear, but certainly, I only meant that people are not well informed (=uninformed), and they are basing their votes and the statements for their feelings what they have. The same went with Jay, if he'd look the AZ money list or read the post which stated facts, he'd not put what he did. In my previous post, I have stated clear facts, from almost all view points what you can think if you want to list who is better player than the other.

Sean, I'm starting to think that you're the emotional one. I'm having good time here, you mis-interpreted me yesterday, and you mis-interpretedd me today also.

If you would have read more carefully, you would have noticed "my moods and meanings" better, but espeacially, that I haven't even been touting for Mika since more than half of my posts, but taken all facts possible in count, and been liking more and more Efren.

What ever I said to jay or anybody, was based on "tongue in the cheeck" attitude, and the fact that I knew the facts. Not for even an opinion, like you are stating now.

You're the one who owns apology here.

 

[Marvel]

instead of assigning your own weighted formula points just list exactly how many of each finish they each had, then add all of the wins and finishes for $5K or higher that each of them had. I've already done this and it isn't even close. Ralf almost doubles both of them.

Corvette, I counted the wins and high finishes of DCC and other which had 10K-39,999K and of course also the bigger ones.

How can you assume, that 5K tourneys then counts more than the bigger ones?
Are you seriously saying that someone who has won more small tournaments, but loses constantly and with wide margin in the mediums and big ones, should be listed higher? Efren is more than doubling Ralf, and Mika otherways winning Ralf in those.

Come on.


So be it. Tiger shoudn't reach Top 10 at the "Golfer of the Decade".

 

[Marvel]

Marcus:

I'm not even going to entertain you by replying to this, because you aren't even understanding the spirit of my replies. I'm only going to ask you one question. How old are you?

This is my last reply to this thread. On to better things -- this thread has long wasted my time.
-Sean

Old enough to base my opinions on facts, and old enough to understand, that if someone shows me I'm wrong - through facts - I'll accept that.

 

[Marvel]

oh, and also

Ralf 83
Mika 38

Yeah, and:

Archer 24

SVB 14


I'm starting to wish that you're only trying to provoke me, laughing at your computer cos you don't really care of being wrong, but just don't want to admit it so you can troll.

Once more; so your argument was that Ralf should be number 1, infront of Efren and Mika, cos he has won more of those very small tournaments, than them?

Ok.

 

[Marvel]

instead of assigning your own weighted formula points just list exactly how many of each finish they each had, then add all of the wins and finishes for $5K or higher that each of them had. I've already done this and it isn't even close. Ralf almost doubles both of them.

Corvette, now I got this right.

I'm not listing any own weighted formula points. That 'p', for example Mika 7p, meant pieces, not points.

Sorry for my bad english, but yeah, those are exact amounts of times when won, nothing to do with my own formulas or ways of thinking.

 

[Marvel]

instead of assigning your own weighted formula points just list exactly how many of each finish they each had, then add all of the wins and finishes for $5K or higher that each of them had. I've already done this and it isn't even close. Ralf almost doubles both of them.

I edited now it from my original post, wrote 7 times etc.. so hopefully you can understand it also and see clearly who has won and how many times, whose doubling who and etc..

 

[Marvel]

Two words: "good grief."

<sigh>

How old are you Mister? You're putting this kind of messages, without even reading what other one has stated.

And others should find "your spirit" from your texts.

 

[corvette1340]

Cashes for $5,000 or more over the last decadeas listed on AZB:

Efren - 53 cashes - a lot more than I thought and it looks like he dominated the early part of the decade in that 35 of these were from 2000-2004.

Ralf - 40 cashes - This also does not take into account all of the tourneys that Roy mentioned where he finished 1-4 that aren't listed on AZB.

Mika - 40 cashes - 21 of these from 2006 - 2009


Given these numbers and the performance in the decade as a whole I would still give the nod to Ralf.

If it were the early part of the decade then Efren, no question.

The latter part of the decade then Mika, no question.