steveharn said:
Bonding is a good idea,,,,,BUT can anyone imagine KT actually finding a company to 'bond' him ? LOLOL
Player's Org and prize money payouts
- Thread starter Da Poet
- Start date
Bonding is a good idea,,,,,BUT can anyone imagine KT actually finding a company to 'bond' him ? LOLOL
NYC cue dude said:
According to my banker (who I will be happy to pm his contact information) he said that it is indeed possible to add the money to the escrow in small amounts up to the moment that the prize money is to be distributed. If a promoter wishes to keep entry open right up until tournament time, perhaps all that is needed is for the promoter to post the difference from what has been collected say a week ahead of the tournament.
Posting a large amount of money two months in advance would indeed be a hurdle, however, the escrow can be interest bearing. Perhaps this interest can somewhat offset the cost of borrowing if a line of credit is available to the promoter. However, I don't see it being critical to escrow the prize money that far in advance anyway. There could be a balance here. Maybe it could be as simple as having the money escrowed a couple days before anyone needs to get on a plane to attend. At a minimum, it should be enough time so if something goes wrong with the prize money, it will give folks enough time to decide if the event is worth attending before running up expenses of their own.
Mark Griffin said:
If a new promoter wants to hold a tournament, how would the document in step three, as you have outlined, guarantee the prize money? I take it that this document (or contract) would require that the prize money would still have to be posted in full at some point before the tournament?
Thanks!
I want to thank everyone for their posts on this thread.
I raised the matter on prize money process not so much out of concern for existing and/or well respected promoters like Mr. Halfert, but more so for new promoters. In other businesses, people do business with complete strangers involving far larger sums of money not so much because they have confidence in the people, but because they have confidence in a process.
It seems right now, without a well understood or accepted process, the phrase "Guaranteed prize money" is meaningless in the professional pool world.
As best I can determine right now, it doesn't look like setting up an escrow at least a couple weeks in advance should be that difficult. And we also know that entry fees can be added to the escrow as they are received. At a minimum, the promoter could keep full control of the escrow by assigning themselves as the releasing agent and any participants would at least be able to contact the institution and confirm that the money is available, which is better than nothing.
Bonding may be an option, but my experience with bonds is that they need to be guarranteed to a single party and who that party would be and how the different checks should be distributed to the players may still be a problem unless someone has an idea here.
As far as added money goes, this is discretionary money anyway so maybe just guarranteeing a base amount would be suitable for everyone.
Anyways, if anyone has anything more to add, great! Otherwise, best of luck to everyone and thanks to those that have contributed to the discussion.
I want to thank everyone for their posts on this thread.
I raised the matter on prize money process not so much out of concern for existing and/or well respected promoters like Mr. Halfert, but more so for new promoters. In other businesses, people do business with complete strangers involving far larger sums of money not so much because they have confidence in the people, but because they have confidence in a process.
It seems right now, without a well understood or accepted process, the phrase "Guaranteed prize money" is meaningless in the professional pool world.
As best I can determine right now, it doesn't look like setting up an escrow at least a couple weeks in advance should be that difficult. And we also know that entry fees can be added to the escrow as they are received. At a minimum, the promoter could keep full control of the escrow by assigning themselves as the releasing agent and any participants would at least be able to contact the institution and confirm that the money is available, which is better than nothing.
Bonding may be an option, but my experience with bonds is that they need to be guarranteed to a single party and who that party would be and how the different checks should be distributed to the players may still be a problem unless someone has an idea here.
As far as added money goes, this is discretionary money anyway so maybe just guarranteeing a base amount would be suitable for everyone.
Anyways, if anyone has anything more to add, great! Otherwise, best of luck to everyone and thanks to those that have contributed to the discussion.
Continue discussion at the Derby
I also appreciate the dialogue this post encouraged. I will be at the Derby City Classic in Louisville Jan 5-13. If anyone wnats to discuss options and ideas, I encourage you to contact me.
You can always ask for me at the control desk or call 812-987-1461 (cell).
I know there is a better way that will allow and encourage new promoters to enter the arena.
Mark Griffin
I also appreciate the dialogue this post encouraged. I will be at the Derby City Classic in Louisville Jan 5-13. If anyone wnats to discuss options and ideas, I encourage you to contact me.
You can always ask for me at the control desk or call 812-987-1461 (cell).
I know there is a better way that will allow and encourage new promoters to enter the arena.
Mark Griffin
Jack Flanagan said:Bonding is a good idea,,,,,BUT can anyone imagine KT actually finding a company to 'bond' him ? LOLOL
LOL.... From what I have read in various sources on the net, maybe the term "bail BONDsman" would better suffice when discussing KT.. LOL.
Back on the topic of this thread, this is a very interesting discussion with many valid points and arguments. I only play in local tournaments and not on the level discussed here. But, it should not be a concern to players at any tournament level whether or not they will be paid when the time comes.
Keep up the good work on this topic!
Craig
NYC cue dude
Banned
Da Poet said:
Adding money at any time up until the event takes place isn't my concern, never was.
My real concern is guaranteeing the money, and showing that it is ALL accounted for, far enough in advance for the players to committ to the event and make travel plans. Having the ENTIRE guaranteed amount, far enough in advance for the the amount to be truly guaranteedis the obstacle I envision difficult to achieve.
What if the promotor does set up an escrow account, and is 5 or 10 k short a week before the event. The money in escrow is certainly guaranteed, but what assurances can be made that any shortfalls can bemade up. And how can the players spend money on travelling expenses knowing their is a deficit.
Kinda brings us back to square one if the original intnet was, as i pointed out, setting up a system where the money is escrowed, in full, in advance of the event. I know promoters count on the entry fees to meet their quotas. Can we really expect them to post their own substantial amounts of money in advance?
rg
On a low brow humor intended note.
guaranteedis- sounds like a word some pop icon or celebrity might makeup.
[I know its an actual word]
I've been watching bad television programming.
Midnight madness is finally over.
Imagine someone does decide to replicate the IPT qualifier mold but with money that actually exists. Now I don't know whats more a slap on the wrist a business going belly up or someone applying someone else's business components and watching it become a success.
We all saw people willing to put the money up.
I was at the DCC and saw those eager little faces.
guaranteedis- sounds like a word some pop icon or celebrity might makeup.
[I know its an actual word]
I've been watching bad television programming.
Midnight madness is finally over.
Imagine someone does decide to replicate the IPT qualifier mold but with money that actually exists. Now I don't know whats more a slap on the wrist a business going belly up or someone applying someone else's business components and watching it become a success.
We all saw people willing to put the money up.
I was at the DCC and saw those eager little faces.
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NYC cue dude said:
Ain't never gonna happen, that's for sure! And who can blame them?
After all, we're living in an era when pool events in the United States are broadcast well after the fact.
It's like there is a financial burden in pool, no matter how large or small, that consistently shifts from entity to entity beforehand, whether it be the promoter, the player, or the industry sponsor representative.
One can only hope that nobody gets stuck behind the 8-ball. Oh, the irony of it all!
JAM
I agree
with JAM, ain't gonna happen. Too many people in the industry and sport operate on a shoestring budget and monies. Corporate sponsorship would have to exist by a non-Pool related company first, preferably by one on the Fortune 500 list. And part of the problem to begin with is the sport's image in the minds of Corporate America. And what about the companies gettting, at least, a partial return for their sponsorship? Most companies participate in charities or sponsorship because of the tax breaks they get.
Another problem is promoters of the sport DO NOT have to have any requirements to become a promoter, many just go out there and try to do it, learning as they go along, so there are few assures to begin with that the promoter is a competent honest person that has a business sense about them. We all have heard the horror stories about league operators and promoters that have failed in their business duties and responsibilities.
Another reason is dictated by the Economy and the rising cost of living. Many opportunities that could be out there for the sport are now a financial burdenk, making it even harder to participate in out of area tournaments, let alone promote. With the rise of computers and the internet, more and more people are finding their entertainment at home, rather than go out to find it.
It's rather like finding out that you can not win with the 7 ball, or even the 6, if you should be so lucky to get it. Our sport, which I still love, works against itself as much as it works for itself.
with JAM, ain't gonna happen. Too many people in the industry and sport operate on a shoestring budget and monies. Corporate sponsorship would have to exist by a non-Pool related company first, preferably by one on the Fortune 500 list. And part of the problem to begin with is the sport's image in the minds of Corporate America. And what about the companies gettting, at least, a partial return for their sponsorship? Most companies participate in charities or sponsorship because of the tax breaks they get.
Another problem is promoters of the sport DO NOT have to have any requirements to become a promoter, many just go out there and try to do it, learning as they go along, so there are few assures to begin with that the promoter is a competent honest person that has a business sense about them. We all have heard the horror stories about league operators and promoters that have failed in their business duties and responsibilities.
Another reason is dictated by the Economy and the rising cost of living. Many opportunities that could be out there for the sport are now a financial burdenk, making it even harder to participate in out of area tournaments, let alone promote. With the rise of computers and the internet, more and more people are finding their entertainment at home, rather than go out to find it.
It's rather like finding out that you can not win with the 7 ball, or even the 6, if you should be so lucky to get it. Our sport, which I still love, works against itself as much as it works for itself.
NYC cue dude
Banned
exactly my point.
The thread first began with the idea that promoters would need to "post" up the money before the tournament began, ideally by either being bonded, or the funds being held in escrow.
In a perfect world, this would be optimal. Players would have the assurances that when making travel plans, the funds would be truly "guaranteed".
But the problem lies in that if the funds must be guaranteed in advance for the players to committ to an event, where would that money be coming from. I suggested earlier that promoters count on entry fees, which are relied on up until the very last minute sometimes, for the promoters to achieve the final amounts for payouts.
Having money escrowed in advance, won't work in my opinion. (not saying that if it did work, wouldn't be a great thing).
rg
The thread first began with the idea that promoters would need to "post" up the money before the tournament began, ideally by either being bonded, or the funds being held in escrow.
In a perfect world, this would be optimal. Players would have the assurances that when making travel plans, the funds would be truly "guaranteed".
But the problem lies in that if the funds must be guaranteed in advance for the players to committ to an event, where would that money be coming from. I suggested earlier that promoters count on entry fees, which are relied on up until the very last minute sometimes, for the promoters to achieve the final amounts for payouts.
Having money escrowed in advance, won't work in my opinion. (not saying that if it did work, wouldn't be a great thing).
rg
NYC cue dude said:
Thanks for keeping the ball rolling!
If a promoter sets up an escrow and is short 5 or 10k a week before an event, then at the very least, this information is available to everyone before the tournament starts. It would be all over the forums for sure!
If promoters are counting on entry fees to meet their quotas, and don't want to escrow the prize money, then it seems fine as long as they're up front about it. But in the current environment, if a promoter expects the best players from all over the world to attend, I don't think anyone would disagree that they shouldn't make prize money promises they may not be able to keep. But even with good intentions, accidents happen, and they will keep happening as long as things stay the way they are.
Perhaps it would serve existing established promoter's interest to set a new standard by escrowing prize money. Maybe everyone getting behind a standard method would help keep some other new wannabe big shot promoter from making promises that they can't keep and walking all over everyone and other tours again.
I still think the players have a major opportunity right now to initiate a change. I'm sure everyone would agree that in the current environment, it would be completely reasonable for any pro player to want to know how the prize money is handled before making a commitment to play. Why should they be denied a means to this information? Why should professional pool be different from any other business?
Thanks again for keeping things rolling.
Edit - NYC, I didn't see your last post until after posting this one, but I think we're still in the ball park.
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what the IPT did was successful in making the process uncomplicated. Pay money, get card, place in event, get money.
It was so simple no one questioned the process.
This was done with cross promotional items by the tour sponsor, a book about nothing.
I am not sure what the average pro pool player would be interested in purchasing, there is a supersaturated amount of billiard related items. Honing down on what the players are interested in could help in finding new market sources. Perhaps a start with a cleaner image?
I would've made a killing at the DCC if I had brought over some type of meal service like BBQ grilled food or something. But I was too busy checking out jeanette lee in her unconservative attire at the 3C table.
A world buffet bar to cater to the ethnically diverse players could help with adding to the culture of billiards.
Id price it so that people be willing to try it. And that it would be sealed for freshness so that it does not spoil easily. Itd probably have spring rolls, sushi, spinach triangles, and other types of finger foods. I could go into more detail but I think you get the idea.
It was so simple no one questioned the process.
This was done with cross promotional items by the tour sponsor, a book about nothing.
I am not sure what the average pro pool player would be interested in purchasing, there is a supersaturated amount of billiard related items. Honing down on what the players are interested in could help in finding new market sources. Perhaps a start with a cleaner image?
I would've made a killing at the DCC if I had brought over some type of meal service like BBQ grilled food or something. But I was too busy checking out jeanette lee in her unconservative attire at the 3C table.
A world buffet bar to cater to the ethnically diverse players could help with adding to the culture of billiards.
Id price it so that people be willing to try it. And that it would be sealed for freshness so that it does not spoil easily. Itd probably have spring rolls, sushi, spinach triangles, and other types of finger foods. I could go into more detail but I think you get the idea.
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