Playing By Feel vs. By Calculation?

[Pidge]

Unless a beginner just wants to be a banger for life, they have no business trying to make banks at all with anything EXCEPT feel and shouldn't be practicing banks yet.

They should be concentrating on perfecting a consistent, straight stroke and go from there.

Jaden

Most beginners don't want a straight stroke. Have you ever met a beginner and they've been like, you know what, I want to really develop a sweet stroke. No, most are kids and love smashing balls around in league. Get them hooked on banks and all that fun stuff, and then the stroke will follow if they enjoy it enough.

 

[perspicaz]

For me, the correct answer is both. Besides, feel is just subconscious calculation improved by experience. Practice is unavoidable even if you could calculate perfectly (with a computer for example), since execution precision greatly affects results.

 

[Zphix]

I think you're asking the wrong question. The real question should be why you had to play that many bank shots unless you were playing one pocket? I think the right question you need to be asking is how to control your cb better so you're not left with Bank shots as your best alternative?

I think you're assuming that I learned to bank from having to in matches... I learned to bank because I practiced them repeatedly because they're fun and that's it.

In a game, I hardly ever have to bank and when I do it's usually the result of my opponent playing a safety, or missing a ball and getting a great leave where a bank is my only option... I rarely have to play banks of my own accord - and usually don't unless my opponent leaves me nothing but a bank shot.

Also - another observation I've made. Lower SL players get lucky leaves because they just hit balls around and when they miss the ball lands wherever. However, I've also observed that some higher SL players attempt to go for a safety but miss it and leave you with a better position than a lower SL just knocking balls around.

In essence - playing someone who misses safeties is better than playing someone who misses shots? Maybe?

 

[KRJ]

I think you're assuming that I learned to bank from having to in matches... I learned to bank because I practiced them repeatedly because they're fun and that's it.

In a game, I hardly ever have to bank and when I do it's usually the result of my opponent playing a safety, or missing a ball and getting a great leave where a bank is my only option... I rarely have to play banks of my own accord - and usually don't unless my opponent leaves me nothing but a bank shot.

Also - another observation I've made. Lower SL players get lucky leaves because they just hit balls around and when they miss the ball lands wherever. However, I've also observed that some higher SL players attempt to go for a safety but miss it and leave you with a better position than a lower SL just knocking balls around.

In essence - playing someone who misses safeties is better than playing someone who misses shots? Maybe?

I'll take the guy who misses shots all day and twice on Sunday. Why? I can miss my safety, and let him see the ob, no worries, he will probably shank the shot anyways... another reason you don't need "great" safeties against bad players... just keep the cue ball on the rail, or a good distance from the ob, most folks don't need BIH to beat weak players... it's nice, but not necessary

 

[vrrdriver]

Also - another observation I've made. Lower SL players get lucky leaves because they just hit balls around and when they miss the ball lands wherever. However, I've also observed that some higher SL players attempt to go for a safety but miss it and leave you with a better position than a lower SL just knocking balls around.

In essence - playing someone who misses safeties is better than playing someone who misses shots? Maybe?

In my experience, this is usually due to the high level player going for too much. they only were thinking about the reward of getting BIH, and not the risk of selling out if the shot isn't executed correctly. That said, I'd rather rely upon my skill in execution, rather than lady luck to continually smile upon me.

I feel that a poorly executed safety carries about the same weight as a poorly executed shot; and therefore give as much attention to safety play as executing a run-out. While some other players of similar skill level think of safeties in terms of a bail-out; i.e. I screwed up this run, i'll play safe now and try to salvage a win,

 

[nobcitypool]

I think you're assuming that I learned to bank from having to in matches... I learned to bank because I practiced them repeatedly because they're fun and that's it.

In a game, I hardly ever have to bank and when I do it's usually the result of my opponent playing a safety, or missing a ball and getting a great leave where a bank is my only option...

I didn't assume anything at all. Your original post said you played 20 in your match.

 

[fastone371]

I think you're assuming that I learned to bank from having to in matches... I learned to bank because I practiced them repeatedly because they're fun and that's it.

In a game, I hardly ever have to bank and when I do it's usually the result of my opponent playing a safety, or missing a ball and getting a great leave where a bank is my only option... I rarely have to play banks of my own accord - and usually don't unless my opponent leaves me nothing but a bank shot.

Also - another observation I've made. Lower SL players get lucky leaves because they just hit balls around and when they miss the ball lands wherever. However, I've also observed that some higher SL players attempt to go for a safety but miss it and leave you with a better position than a lower SL just knocking balls around.

In essence - playing someone who misses safeties is better than playing someone who misses shots? Maybe?

I am guessing a weak player leaves you safe often when they miss cause if you are the better player you probably have 1 or 2 balls left on the table while your weaker opponent has 6 or 7 balls laying on the table. How many times during a tournament or league do you see a guy play a safety on his opponent during his first inning because his opponent failed to run out, he has 1 ball or only the 8 left, pretty easy to get BIH in situations like that. I know if I am playing and my opponent runs to the 8 and misses I would rather start my run with BIH so I will most likely play safe unless I am starting from a nice spot or the 8 is almost in the jaws.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Getting to caught up in the physics and complex explanations is unnecessary

Feel and instinct are not isolated from calculation, with a sound technique they work in unison. Specific knowledge is the only real "short cut" I've found. This means someone needs to not only explain why it works, but also how you go about doing it consistently as a human being.

Getting to caught up in the physics and complex explanations is unnecessary. I seriously have my doubts that anyone actually gets better by understanding spin/squirt ratios. The physics of the Game are simple, the geometry is slightly more difficult, and the mind/body/cue relationships are the most important. These factors can effectively blended together, however it does take many years - I can give you a short cut if you like.

If you want a FREE TIP Banking DVD simply PM me your request and address and I'll be more than happy to send you one so you can understand what I'm saying better....it's tough to learn this game through written communication without demonstration, accompanied by verbal explanation and examples. 'The Game is the Teacher'

Yo guys, I noticed something after playing last night.

In my match, I must've played at least 20 bank shots across 5 matches, and I made nearly every bank (and at least half were not easy, or dead banks) and these were all made by feel.

Now, I also missed a couple banks, and these were on the 8 ball where I calculated the aim point, etc. and I missed 3 of them in a row: the lady I played kept getting incredible leaves so all I had were either banks, or kicks.

Anyway, it got me thinking: when you've done something enough times - is it better to play by feel and instinct rather than calculation because it seemed to me that I made nearly all my "by feel" banks, and missed my "by calculation" bank shots.

Let me re-iterate though! I'm only asking this question for areas where you've done something enough times... I've practiced banking enough to not have to calculate every bank every time and I can usually make them based on a quick glance. I cannot do this same thing for position or kicks, etc.

Just an observation I've made - what do you guys think?

 

[Zphix]

I didn't assume anything at all. Your original post said you played 20 in your match.

Yup, I did play about 20. Give or take a few - but they were played out of necessity not careless position on my part (though admittedly I did have to take about 3 banks because I missed position).

Other times, I play position for bank shots because it's the only way to pot a problem ball, or because I think banks are easier than thin cuts.

Sent from my X501_USA_Cricket using Tapatalk 2

 

[Pidge]

Yup, I did play about 20. Give or take a few - but they were played out of necessity not careless position on my part (though admittedly I did have to take about 3 banks because I missed position).

Other times, I play position for bank shots because it's the only way to pot a problem ball, or because I think banks are easier than thin cuts.

Sent from my X501_USA_Cricket using Tapatalk 2

What game type were you playing? If you are a strong banker then bank away. If not then brush up on position. You have got to play the percentages at times, and sometimes its easier to play a shot to nothing with a bank than taking the direct pot on.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Can't argue with reasoning like this.:withstupid:

You have got to play the percentages at times, and sometimes its easier to play a shot to nothing with a bank than taking the direct pot on.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Pidge]

Can't argue with reasoning like this.:withstupid:

[/QUOTE]
Are you a complete and utter tail end?

Have you never been faced with a tough thin cut, so thin that the CB will do nothing but go from long rail to long rail and if the OB doesn't pot then its left hanging with the CB mid table? Sometimes its better to play the bank, where you can control the CB better and get it into a place that will cover the ball you played if you miss. Its called playing the percentages CJ.

 

[Zphix]

What game type were you playing? If you are a strong banker then bank away. If not then brush up on position. You have got to play the percentages at times, and sometimes its easier to play a shot to nothing with a bank than taking the direct pot on.

We were playing 8 ball on 7 foot Diamonds - every break left clusters and problems everywhere and I'm not good enough to play precise enough position to run out on a 7 footer. I can't ever seem to get a clean break on a 7 footer.

Anyway, because of the clusters and problems all over every game when she missed I'd usually have to bank because no other balls were openly available.

Actually, thinking about it now. I've never had a break and run on a 7 footer, but I've had about 6 on 9 footers...

 

[Pidge]

We were playing 8 ball on 7 foot Diamonds - every break left clusters and problems everywhere and I'm not good enough to play precise enough position to run out on a 7 footer. I can't ever seem to get a clean break on a 7 footer.

Anyway, because of the clusters and problems all over every game when she missed I'd usually have to bank because no other balls were openly available.

Actually, thinking about it now. I've never had a break and run on a 7 footer, but I've had about 6 on 9 footers...

Lots of players have the same issue with 8 ball. The larger table gives more room for the balls to go, so you often have racks after the break that are clean. I've not had much opportunity to play on 7fters but I guess if you practice enough on them the break and runs will come.

 

[sfleinen]

Are you a complete and utter tail end?
[...]

Perhaps an "udder" tail end. Because he does spew milk from time to time.

-Sean

 

[Pidge]

Perhaps an "udder" tail end. Because he does spew milk from time to time.

-Sean

Lol he has to, it helps get rid of the BS taste in his mouth.

 

[CJ Wiley]

Captain Obvious strikes again........

Have I ever been faced with a tough, thin cut?

Are you a complete and utter tail end?

Have you never been faced with a tough thin cut, so thin that the CB will do nothing but go from long rail to long rail and if the OB doesn't pot then its left hanging with the CB mid table? Sometimes its better to play the bank, where you can control the CB better and get it into a place that will cover the ball you played if you miss. Its called playing the percentages CJ.[/QUOTE]

 

[Pidge]

Have I ever been faced with a tough, thin cut?

Are you a complete and utter tail end?

Have you never been faced with a tough thin cut, so thin that the CB will do nothing but go from long rail to long rail and if the OB doesn't pot then its left hanging with the CB mid table? Sometimes its better to play the bank, where you can control the CB better and get it into a place that will cover the ball you played if you miss. Its called playing the percentages CJ.

[/QUOTE]
So you call me stupid for making a point, then when I explain the point you try winding me up by thanking me for stating the obvious...cheers don't think I can win either way.

It seems the only way to please you is to either A) worship the ground you walk on, B) agree with everything you have said and back you up regardless of what crap you tell people or C) claim TOI is a valid and useful system that all top pros use on all shots.

Either way, you don't half love having your ego stroked. I don't think I've ever met a has been with such a massive ego and who thinks they're the be all end all of the pool world. I don't think pool is for you CJ, sales are more your forte. You could sell oil to the Russians and ice to the eskimos...after all, its bound to be easier than selling some of your useless DVDs eh.

Now, you get looking on google images for a picture to put in the response to this post. We all know how much you enjoy that. We wont tell anyone its to mask the fact you have absolutely nothing of any worth to add to threads ;-)

 

[KRJ]

So you call me stupid for making a point, then when I explain the point you try winding me up by thanking me for stating the obvious...cheers don't think I can win either way.

It seems the only way to please you is to either A) worship the ground you walk on, B) agree with everything you have said and back you up regardless of what crap you tell people or C) claim TOI is a valid and useful system that all top pros use on all shots. D) admit pool is the toughest sport on the planet E) Refer to golfers as the best athletes on the planet F) never critique him for name dropping in every other post G) And shake in your own boots when he mentions at least once a day he is a karate expert
[/QUOTE]

Fixed that for ya

 

[Mickey Qualls]

Each player is different...

Each player knows his strong shots and weak shots.

I can cut the hell out of a ball, I've even pulled off shots that my teammates used to look in disbelief when I would call it... And then high-five me when the ball goes in...
"Holy $h1t, Mickey, I can't believe you made that"

;-)

Another guy on my team is a strong banker. Knows enough about reverse and throw that (from the sidelines) the rest of us used to look at each other and say, "wtf is he doing ? No way that'll go."

Then Dale comes over and collects his high-fives...

You play to your strengths...