Please evaluate my stance/stroke!

mattman

mattman

Registered User
Silver Member
Here is a short video (7 minutes) of me shooting some draw shots. Any constructive critisms out there (otherthan lose some weight....lol). FYI, from the head end of the table the cue ball is 3 diamonds away and object balls are 5 diamonds. This excercise if from the PAT Level 1 booklet. The goal is to pocket the ball and draw the cueball back to the head rail. I notice I have a little jab, but is that ordinary?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvHe9uNLJ0k


Thank,
Matt
 
mattman said:
Here is a short video (7 minutes) of me shooting some draw shots. Any constructive critisms out there (otherthan lose some weight....lol). FYI, from the head end of the table the cue ball is 3 diamonds away and object balls are 5 diamonds. This excercise if from the PAT Level 1 booklet. The goal is to pocket the ball and draw the cueball back to the head rail. I notice I have a little jab, but is that ordinary?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvHe9uNLJ0k


Thank,
Matt
Click to expand...
I think a lot of the BCA Instructor will tell you that you're not hitting your finish. The little jab is not "ordinary" if you're wondering if everyone does that.

On another note, you have the reverse chicken wing thing going. Me too. I do because my shoulder. I've always locked my shoulder in like it was double jointed. I see you locking your shoulder just like I do. This can be bad, but might also be unavoidable depending on your body. If I try to keep my shoulder in line, it starts to ache rather quickly.

Fred
 
It's kinda hard to tell, but I didn't see much follow through at all. Drive your tip into the cloth all the way through your contact to the cue ball and freeze. Do this exageratedly the first couple times to make it stick. It should come naturally later. Loosen your grip hand a little (looks like your using your whole fist and squeezing a little too tightly), and make sure that when you stroke, that your hand is closer to your hip than behind it. This will help you with control and accuracy.
 
Since you asked:

Your stance looks a little off balance. Your back foot is behind you. Try moving your back foot to your right about a foot or so. A good guideline is to keep your back foot in line with the shot.

You hold your cue a little far back. If you were to address the cue ball, and not stroke the cue back and forth, you would see that your arm is beyond vertical. I'm not sure if I'm explaining this right but, if you watch #most# of the pros from the side, their forearm will be vertical, if not slightly forward of vertical, when they address the cue ball. Yours, if you're looking from the side, is to the left of being vertical.

Your elbow is flared out a little. If you were to take a video of yourself from directly behind the shot, your arm would look look something like this character: /
Ideally, you want it to look like this character: |

And last is the thing that the others have mentioned. You poke at the ball. The stroke is one fluid motion forward. You stroke forward to hit the cue ball, but then jerk your stroke backward. Watch some of these videos that others have been posting of some of the pros. Notice their tip. It never moves backward. It goes forward and stops after the follow through. Your stroke is punchy. Try thinking "smooth" and it might help to follow through without jerking back.
 
If I'm seeing your back foot correctly, it appears that your body is out of alignment wih the line of the shot. Ideally (and I don't claim that this works for everybody or every body type), your back foot, shooting hand, wrist, elbow, shoulder, and your bridge should all be on the same vertical plane as your aiming line. For most people, that alignment allows their stroke to go straight backwards and forwards without effort or adjustment. That's something you can work on.

Aside from that, as Cornerman noted, your stroke lacks relaxaton and follow through. Your shooting arm, wrist, and grip must be relaxed all the way through the stroke, and your actual stroke consists of throwing the cue straight through the cue ball, with a follow through that finishes at least 4-6 inches beyond the cue ball. By no means should you snap the stick back or in any way impede its momentum leading to a natural finish. Check out Ralf Souquet or Buddy Hall for examples of a textbook stroke, but with almost every single one of the pros, regardless of what their warm up strokes look like, on the final stroke they deliver the cue straight through the cue ball and finish their stroke well in front of it. Lastly, slow down your final backswing--that will lend focus, power and accuracy to your final stroke.

Don't worry! A good stroke is not built in a day! Keep working on staying smooth and following through, and seek the services of a good instructor if you can. This will save you a lot of time and trial and error.

Good luck, and remember to try without trying!
VIProfessor
 
You should watch a baseball game and wait for one of the premier hitters to take an at-bat.

All of them (and I mean ALL) have this routine they go through and many of your problems are going to be corrected if you come up with a routine. No matter what the routine is, you have to get into an execution-mode. You have to say, NOW is the time to perform. Instead, you're just setting-up the shot, taking a step back, getting down and hitting the ball low. You're shooting pool but you're not shooting THE shot. You're not saying, "I am gong to do this RIGHT NOW"

You're not doing repetitions. You're doing single executions over and over. There's a difference.
 
i only watched the first minute or two.......what i noticed is you really dont have an address in your preshot routine, you just go down into your stance and shoot. Your elbow looks is perpendicular to the cue when the tip is almost touching the cueball, which is good, but you are trying to stop your stroke rather than following thru. Try shooting and letting your grip hand end up touching the side of ur chest near ur armpit, and leave it there for a count of 3........when you jerk back your cue its also making your rise up just a little bit.
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
You should watch a baseball game and wait for one of the premier hitters to take an at-bat.

All of them (and I mean ALL) have this routine they go through and many of your problems are going to be corrected if you come up with a routine. No matter what the routine is, you have to get into an execution-mode. You have to say, NOW is the time to perform. Instead, you're just setting-up the shot, taking a step back, getting down and hitting the ball low. You're shooting pool but you're not shooting THE shot. You're not saying, "I am gong to do this RIGHT NOW"

You're not doing repetitions. You're doing single executions over and over. There's a difference.
Click to expand...

I have to agree with this post... I noticed that you do not have a pre-shot routine... If you get one, coupled with the small changes the other posters suggest, your game is going to greatly improve.

My pre-shot routine is one that I learned from the Jimmy Reid videos. His website is http://www.freepoollessons.com/

There are many pre-shot routines that you can use, but basically, you need to set up the shot, then stand back from the table for a moment and just look at the shot, let your mind calm down, visualize the pocketing of the shot, then address the cueball (aim without stroking), take a set number of strokes (about 3) and then shoot the shot.
 
From what I see there are a few mistakes that I can name right off the bat. First off is that you tuck your wrist in a bit which can cause you to twist your wrist on your follow through and apply unwanted spin and English. Secondly, your backswing is way too long. If you watch all the top pros; on their backswing they barely extend their arm more than 95 degrees. In other words you are using your tricep muscle to control your stroke as opposed to using your bicep. It makes a difference believe it or not. Another thing is your follow through. You poke a lot at the ball. There is nothing wrong with that entirely; but when you do, you still need to get a full range of motion from your arm to almost completly bend forward. Just a few things to note. Hope it helps.
 
Your bridge distance seems to be a little bit long. You might want to get your bridge hand a couple of inches closer to the cue ball. At the same time, you will need to move your grip hand more forward on the cue. When the tip of the cue is within 1/4 inch of the cue ball, your grip hand should be directly below your elbow.
As others have mentioned, you do have your grip hand well inside. With the view from behind, it should be directly below your elbow.
Get a routine and use it on every shot. two or three warm up strokes, pause, then bring the cue back in a slow smooth motion. pause at the end of the back stroke, then bring the cue forward. Look for a spot just a few inches beyond the cue ball on the table, and try to have your tip come to rest on that spot. Hold it there for a couple of seconds and you will eliminate that habit of jumping up out of your shot. Ideally, you want your grip hand to come up into the side of your chest.
I know that sounds like a lot......but you did ask.
Steve
 
You've already received some good advise. You do need to work on your basics. I'll just add watch some pro's or video of good players, some right here on this forum. Compare their motion to yours. You always jerk the cue back after contact with the cue ball. Good players Let the cue go through. No need to jerk it back unless the o/b is very close. As a matter of fact let the cue go through, keep it there and let the c/b come back till it almost hits the tip then lift up. You really need to stay down with the shot longer.

Among other things I suspect one part of this is you grasp the cue tight on your forward swing. That alone will cause a punchy stroke. Relax, hold the cue light it will help smooth out your stroke. For as hard as your hitting those balls you could draw the ball twice as far.

What you should do is get some instruction. Even if for just a couple of hours. It will answer a lot of questions far better than reading it on this forum.

I'll add you have potential, you just need someone to help get you smoothed out.

Rod
 
I think you need an instructor to work with in person, because although many of us are seeing the same things in your stroke, it's going to be very hard for you to change your bad habits to good ones based on written descriptions.

Anyway, here goes nothing:

Your right shoulder is a big problem. If the arm is going to be in line with the shot, the shoulder has to be directly above the cue. Your shoulder is outside the cue, i.e. the cue is below your chest/neck. You can rotate your right shoulder backward and leftward to get it over the cue by moving your right hip, which will change the angle of your torso in relation to the shot. If you move your left foot left a little, and pull your hips away from the shot so that your torso is a little more sideways (not facing the shot so directly), that will pull your right shoulder back and left, and using your video camera, you should be able to find out when you've pulled it far enough that it's straight over the cue. You should be able to bend your neck to keep your head in the same position it was before, even as your torso moves out of the way.

So, once you right shoulder is above the cue, your right elbow needs to be directly above the cue. This is easy, just move your elbow back and forth, perhaps using a mirror or your camera to find out when it's in line. If your shoulder and elbow are in line with the cue, your upper arm is in line with the cue, and your lower arm will be hanging straight down from your elbow to the cue, perpendicular to the floor. This is the alignment you need to allow a perfect pendulum stroke.

Once aligned, you should have a VERY straight and effortless cueing motion by moving nothing but your elbow, using your elbow joint as a simple hinge. Depending on how your elbow joint is hinged, you may need to turn your lower arm to make the hinge line up for a straight motion. You can do this by turning your hand back and forth (facing the back of your knuckles toward the shot, or pulling them back in to line up with the cue) while stroking freely, and noting what amount of hand turn gives you a straight pendulum.

Once you've got your arm aligned and your elbow hinging straight, a pefrect stroke is just a bicep-contraction away. Pull the cue back, and release it forward, pulling your arm forward smoothly with your bicep but avoiding ANY other muscle tension. If you can translate what I've written here correctly into an actual stroke, you'll be astonished how effortless it is to stroke powerfully and accurately through the ball.

So that's the mechanics as well as I can describe them. You also have some bad habits that aren't really mechanics flaws, per se. You stroke very suddenly (jerky), but once you have a smooth pendulum and have eliminated extra muscle tension, that should go away. You lift up as soon as you've stroked through the ball, and you'd get much more consistent results if you froze at the end of your follow-through to get feedback, where you can see your ending position, which will tell you if you stroked straight, and you can concentrate on watching the CB contact the OB and where both balls go afterward. If you consider this feedback to be part of the stroke, your subconscious will learn much more from each shot you hit, and you'll improve faster. Also, I noticed you seem to lift your elbow on your final stroke. Don't do that. You'll frustrate yourself silly trying to get consistent results if your elbow keeps changing position at the last second like that.

Hope this was helpful. If I were you, I'd read what I just wrote, watch your video again with that in mind, and then get an instructor to help you learn to actually get yourself into the perfect alignment/stroke position I tried to describe.

-Andrew
 
Remember...

You asked, and I am 'OLD SCHOOL'.

1) You holding the cue with full fist with your grip wrist NOT in a straight line. You are also holding the cue too far back with your grip hand. Your grip arm is NOT perpendicular to the floor.
2) Because of the above things, you are locking your left arm when you bridge for unconscioiusly steady your stroke through the shot. The left arm should be slightly bent. Moving your grip hand about 2" up on the wrap is a partial correction for that.
3) Your stance is like a tripod trying to rely on 2 of the pivot points instead of three. You are too straight with the cue Your body should be at a 45 degree angle to your cue, not 20 degrees. Standing too straight can cause all types of unconscious correction techniques for control of the stroke, but will limit your overall playing in totality. Draw an Isoceles triangle, now draw a triangle with one of the corners having a 20 degree angle instead of a 45 degree angle...... see what I mean by your stance?

Your form should not be judged by the shots you consistently make, but rather by the type of shots you consistently MISS.

AND AGAIN, I am Old School.
 
Thanks for all the great advise. I plan on taking lessons from RandyG sometime this year, but not sure when. As far as the "chicken wing" goes that Cornerman mentioned, I try to straighten it up (keeping my wrist inline with my elbow), but like him, my shoulder instantly starts to ache. As far as jabbing the cue ball, I think I only do that when applying draw. Actually, during the drill I started to correct this, but I could not include the video of that because of the youtube limits. Thanks for all the great advice. I will print it all out and review it as I am working at the table.

Thanks again,
Matt
 
Take a step or two back in between shots. Aim while standing, move slowing into your aim-line. Take 3 or 4 practice strokes.. pause. Stroke.. don't poke. Follow through and stay down until the ball falls in the hole and/or the cue ball stops rolling.

That's what all 4 pros that have given me lessons have said. ALL of them.
 
JimS said:
Take a step or two back in between shots. Aim while standing, move slowing into your aim-line. Take 3 or 4 practice strokes.. pause. Stroke.. don't poke. Follow through and stay down until the ball falls in the hole and/or the cue ball stops rolling.

That's what all 4 pros that have given me lessons have said. ALL of them.
Click to expand...

Now THAT is good advice! Let's repeat it:

* Aim standing up, always, always, always, stand back and visualize the path of the cue ball.

* Step forward into your stance in a nice slow smooth motion.

* Take a few practice strokes, too many will just give you more time to mess up what you already have done right. - don't adjust anything, otherwise stand up and start over.

* Pause! This is very important after glancing down at the cue ball for a second while practice stroking. The pause gives your eyes the time to find that contact point again and really focus.

* Stroke through the cue ball.

There has been lots of good advice to align yourself, please take it into consideration, but remember that once it's comfortable, THIS is what you'll focus on doing, not getting into the stance...it becomes automatic and less important later..
 
as long as were talking stance i thought id ask. i always hear your back arm should be at 90 degrees or your hand should be right under your elbow. these are 2 diff. things. which is right???
 
Snapshot9 said:
You asked, and I am 'OLD SCHOOL'.

1) You holding the cue with full fist with your grip wrist NOT in a straight line. You are also holding the cue too far back with your grip hand. Your grip arm is NOT perpendicular to the floor.
2) Because of the above things, you are locking your left arm when you bridge for unconscioiusly steady your stroke through the shot. The left arm should be slightly bent. Moving your grip hand about 2" up on the wrap is a partial correction for that.
3) Your stance is like a tripod trying to rely on 2 of the pivot points instead of three. You are too straight with the cue Your body should be at a 45 degree angle to your cue, not 20 degrees. Standing too straight can cause all types of unconscious correction techniques for control of the stroke, but will limit your overall playing in totality. Draw an Isoceles triangle, now draw a triangle with one of the corners having a 20 degree angle instead of a 45 degree angle...... see what I mean by your stance?

Your form should not be judged by the shots you consistently make, but rather by the type of shots you consistently MISS.

AND AGAIN, I am Old School.
Click to expand...


Listen to Scott. He's right and this is coming from an OLDER Schooler. The only thing I would add is, apply your chalk. Don't grind it. One of the truest lines MN Fats ever iterated was, "A champion pool player applies chalk like a beautiful woman applies make up." What he was saying is watch the chalk go on your tip as you apply it. The chalk goes on the tip, not the ferrule. All pro players know this, except Earl, LOL.
 
APA9 said:
Since you asked:

Your stance looks a little off balance. Your back foot is behind you. Try moving your back foot to your right about a foot or so. A good guideline is to keep your back foot in line with the shot.

You hold your cue a little far back. If you were to address the cue ball, and not stroke the cue back and forth, you would see that your arm is beyond vertical. I'm not sure if I'm explaining this right but, if you watch #most# of the pros from the side, their forearm will be vertical, if not slightly forward of vertical, when they address the cue ball. Yours, if you're looking from the side, is to the left of being vertical.

Your elbow is flared out a little. If you were to take a video of yourself from directly behind the shot, your arm would look look something like this character: /
Ideally, you want it to look like this character: |

And last is the thing that the others have mentioned. You poke at the ball. The stroke is one fluid motion forward. You stroke forward to hit the cue ball, but then jerk your stroke backward. Watch some of these videos that others have been posting of some of the pros. Notice their tip. It never moves backward. It goes forward and stops after the follow through. Your stroke is punchy. Try thinking "smooth" and it might help to follow through without jerking back.
Click to expand...
Lots of good advice given but the think smooth is simple and effective.
Whenever I have a difficult say long draw shot I remind myself how difficult the shot is and give myself the best chance of executing it by chalking up and thinking smooth stroke and smooth follow thru it seems to work. Try it!
Philw
 
mindtriplx said:
as long as were talking stance i thought id ask. i always hear your back arm should be at 90 degrees or your hand should be right under your elbow. these are 2 diff. things. which is right???
Click to expand...

If I were to offer either of these as advice, I'd probably say 90° just because I think it's an easy visual. However, I'm not sure how this differs from your hand being directly under your elbow. If your forearm hung straight down at 90°, wouldn't your hand be right under your elbow? Your hand is at the end of your forearm so, if your forearm is hanging straight down from your elbow, then your hand, being at the end of your forearm, would have to be beneath your elbow, right? Sure, you could argue that the elbow joint is, technically, directly above your pinky-finger knuckle if your arm were at an exact 90° angle but, for one, that knuckle is still part of your hand and, secondly, which is the main point I'm trying to make here, it doesn't have to be exact down to the millimeter. Either advice is a guideline; something to give you a mental image while you're down on the ball since, after all, you can't see if your arm is 90° or if your hand is directly under your elbow while you're down on the ball anyway. It's just an image to keep in your head to help achieve your goal, if that's what it is that you're working on.
 
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