Please Fix POOL LEAGUE RULES ... Here Are Some Suggestions

dr_dave

dr_dave

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FYI, I just posted a new video that looks at issues with pool league rules, discusses some of the rule differences among league systems, and recommends a few rule changes that put league play more in line with the official rules of pool. Check it out:


Content:
0:00 - Intro
0:37 - 45˚ Rule
4:18 - CB Fouls Only
8:11 - Open Table
9:32 - Marking the 8
10:51 - Wrap Up

As always, I look forward to your feedback, comments, questions, complaints, and requests.

Enjoy!
 
Now only if we could get rid of the APA 9ball handicapping format. It's simply the worst.

Great video and I totally agree, all leagues should use the same basic rule set.
 
Haven't watched the video but I'm sure I agree at least 99%. My two big ones: 1) just play WPA rules (they are the one thing the WPA gets right); 2) get rid of the travesty that is "cue ball fouls only". No other sport makes an official rule of a one time courtesy to a drunk in a bar who doesn't know what they are doing. It's laughable beyond belief.
 
Swighey said:
Haven't watched the video but I'm sure I agree at least 99%. My two big ones: 1) just play WPA rules (they are the one thing the WPA gets right); 2) get rid of the travesty that is "cue ball fouls only". No other sport makes an official rule of a one time courtesy to a drunk in a bar who doesn't know what they are doing. It's laughable beyond belief.
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Now watched it and don't disagree with any of it.
 
dquarasr said:
Agree except mark pocket. Define “obvious”. That’s the challenge and source of arguments.
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Most people know “obvious“ when they see it. If not, just call the pocket, as with any other shot that is not “obvious.”

But to answer your question, “obvious“ means a cut shot straight to the pocket. if there is a combo, kiss, carom, bank, jump, or masse, the shot should be called, as is done under the WPA “official rules of pool.”
 
Swighey said:
Haven't watched the video but I'm sure I agree at least 99%. My two big ones: 1) just play WPA rules (they are the one thing the WPA gets right); 2) get rid of the travesty that is "cue ball fouls only". No other sport makes an official rule of a one time courtesy to a drunk in a bar who doesn't know what they are doing. It's laughable beyond belief.
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What about beginning and recreational players? Should we be making them play under professional rules? This game is hard enough to learn...no sense in making it harder for beginners. Its difficult enough to get people interested in picking up this game.

I dont see the problem with a little variety. I've played APA, VALLEY, BCA, and some Texas Express tournaments.... some of them at the same time (same session). I have no problem adapting to each rule set.
 
dr_dave said:
FYI, I just posted a new video that looks at issues with pool league rules, discusses some of the rule differences among league systems, and recommends a few rule changes that put league play more in line with the official rules of pool. Check it out:


Content:
0:00 - Intro
0:37 - 45˚ Rule
4:18 - CB Fouls Only
8:11 - Open Table
9:32 - Marking the 8
10:51 - Wrap Up

As always, I look forward to your feedback, comments, questions, complaints, and requests.

Enjoy!
Click to expand...
Good video dr. Dave. I agree with most of what you said. But I do have to make one correction. It concerns marking the pocket. In apa, it is not a loss if the marker is at the pocket you are shooting at from a previous attempt...

Marking the pocket
a. A coaster or some other reasonable marker must be placed next to
the shooter’s intended pocket.
b. Marking the pocket with chalk is not recommended.
c. Both players may use the same marker.
d. Only one marker should remain on the table at a time.
e. If the marker is already at the intended pocket from a previous
attempt or game, it is not necessary to touch it, pick it up or
reposition it.
 
buckshotshoey said:
What about beginning and recreational players? Should we be making them play under professional rules? This game is hard enough to learn...no sense in making it harder for beginners. Its difficult enough to get people interested in picking up this game.
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Yes I think it is beneficial if players of all levels to play by the rules. They get better quicker and they develop more respect for the game.
 
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buckshotshoey said:
Good video dr. Dave. I agree with most of what you said. But I do have to make one correction. It concerns marking the pocket. In apa, it is not a loss if the marker is at the pocket you are shooting at from a previous attempt...
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I didn’t claim this. Watch and listen to the video again. All that is required is that the pocket for the 8 be marked. It doesn't matter when you mark it. Whenever I am forced to play under “mark the pocket” rules, I get in the habit of marking the pocket for the 8 after the break, and I try to recheck after every shot just to be safe.
 
dr_dave said:
I didn’t claim this. Watch and listen to the video again. All that is required is that the pocket for the 8 be marked. It doesn't matter when you mark it. Whenever I am forced to play under “mark the pocket” rules, I get in the habit of marking the pocket for the 8 after the break, and I try to recheck after every shot just to be safe.
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You are right... I am wrong...I'm really now feelin like a giant ding dong!

But agree with the patching of pockets. We actually had a team try to call a loss of game because the patch wasn't touching the corner casting. It was in between the pocket casting in the first diamond. Yes, there are some real douchebags out there.
 
Why are the rules, specifically written to keep drunken yahoos drinking at the bar, while simultaneously discouraging any skill improvement, not good? Gee, why could that possibly be?

I'm not from the US, but I see the same thing here. People playing in bars are largely unfamiliar with the official rules of pool and rather play by "bar rules" that they learned from random friends and relatives. Around here it's mostly "last pocket" 8 ball, no call shot, cue ball in hand in the kitchen only and no spotting object balls etc...So when leagues introduce rules, they have to keep this in mind. If you start with tournament rules and all fouls etc, it's too foreign to them and they might not want to play. Also they must keep in mind that the people likely will be drunk and argumentative, which is why they probably need that pocket marker. "I didn't hear you call that" or "it wasn't obvious to ME" etc..Not to mention calling false touch fouls on everyone and everything, which explains cue ball fouls only. The jacked up cue on frozen balls also seem to be near culturally universal, except in the UK and colonies where you have to shoot away from the frozen ball. It stems from a lack of understanding, but educating drunken fools with no interest in learning is a tall order for anyone, even a professor.

The leagues do seem to create interest in real pool in a small minority of people playing, so they are not all bad. But this crusade to change all leagues is doomed to fail.
 
dr_dave said:
Most people know “obvious“ when they see it. If not, just call the pocket, as with any other shot that is not “obvious.”

But to answer your question, “obvious“ means a cut shot straight to the pocket. if there is a combo, kiss, carom, bank, jump, or masse, the shot should be called, as is done under the WPA “official rules of pool.”
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Most people like you and me, but what's obvious to us isn't necessarily obvious to the shooter or their opponent. Seriously, a 2 can look at a straight-in shot and not know where to shoot it. And a cut could go straight to the corner or straight to the side, so even that's not obvious to some players.

I looked at WPA rules online (declared "official", although less than half the pool players ANYWHERE use them or have even heard of them) and the rule about the 8-Ball says nothing about banks or kicks or any of that other stuff, it just says if it's not obvious. Written by people who "know how to write rules". That word, the word "barely", and the word "assumed" are sprinkled everywhere in that rule set. When used by a small audience of good players, that might be ok, but words like that cause wildly different interpretations when you widen your audience. References to referees are everywhere, but the part I looked at said nothing about what to do when there is no referee present, as in most league environments.

To be clear, the rule about marking the pocket is my least favorite rule. I have to enforce it when called upon, but now it's worded so that it's not an automatic loss. I always give the opponent a hard time if they knew where the 8 was going, and only an a-hole will take a game that way now in my league. I think the rule could be reworded further to make it more palatable to everyone. It's under "How to Lose", and should be rewritten to be something like "If you don't clearly indicate the intended pocket for the 8-Ball (preferably with a physical marker) and your opponent disputes which was the intended pocket." That would cover both "obvious" and cases where you waved at the table but didn't clearly indicate the pocket. The a-holes would still lie but at least they'd have to lie.
 
Swighey said:
It actually makes it easier for them.
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Easier when they actually play. The difficulty comes when you try to convince them to play in the first place. Tournament rules are hard to sell to people in bars and they are not easy to enforce, either, due to the problems I outlined. It can be done, but the leagues want volume in players. As many as possible as easily as possible. I don't want to demonize the leagues AT ALL. They have their place and they do bring in new players. But to understand the rules, they use we must understand what they want, and to whom they cater.

Trying to enforce WPA rules in every league is a Herculean task, that likely will take decades to accomplish. Dr. Daves initiative to point out the most ridiculous rules may help quite a bit, but from there to full on adoption of WPA rules is quite a long way to go.
 
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dr_dave said:
I get in the habit of marking the pocket for the 8 after the break, and I try to recheck after every shot just to be safe.
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I endeavor to get to the point where I can mark the 8 after the break. I always have a plan, but it rarely works out how I intend it, considering I'm an APA SL5, and racks usually take 4-6 innings where the balls get moved around, or my pattern isn't supported by the shape I actually get during runs.

I'm working on it, though. :)
 
If we're talking about illogical rules, how about the "call shot" rules for 8 ball and 10 ball in WPA? To me that is equally as ridiculous as the rules previously discussed. Why should I instruct my opponent as to what shot I'm playing? It makes no sense, a legal shot should be legal without the intentions being made clear in advance. It's a remnant of bar rules, with argumentative drunks arguing about luck. It needlessly complicates the game, breeds conflict for a questionable objective to "eliminate luck" which doesn't come into play much in the pro game, and when it does is usually exciting to the audience rather than the opposite.

Call shot belongs in straight pool and banks, and nowhere else. That is because not having it would ruin the mechanics of those games, and that is the only reason such a rule should ever be implemented. It doesnt' belong in 9ball, 10 ball, straight rotation or 8 ball and certainly not one pocket, though I've never heard anyone advocate for that, fortunately.
 
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