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Please offer your opinions on cue design theft
- Thread starter manwon
- Start date
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Well it would be nice if this thread returned to the original subject.
"Please offer your opinions on cue design theft "
But then I do not think the parties in the decussion will change their minds.
"Please offer your opinions on cue design theft "
But then I do not think the parties in the decussion will change their minds.
Cut the crap with the racist and bigoted bullsh*t you spew. It's not bigoted or racist to do the following; say buy USA, point out China's manufacturing shortcomings (which are many), to point out Chinese human right violations, to say that they eat what many people consider household pets. NONE of these points are racist or bigoted. They happen to be the truth and its a truth that no matter how much make up you apply YOU'RE still the ugly girl at the dance.
No one says you're racist for pointing out the pricey manufacturing in the USA, and that people in the USA are lazy, or any of that stuff. It's facts on both sides, and they are not racist or bigoted.
JV
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JV I think you do not like China, or products from China. But get over yourself when you talk about human right violations, as China in not the only Country who some people feel have committed human right violations.
The list is long, and the USA is also accused of human right violations, ever time some State decide to carry out the death sentence. The anti capitol punishment crowd cries & moans about human right violations, and how capitol punishment is so mean.
Some people in the USA think it is a terrible thing we are doing stopping, and deporting those who enter the USA ILLEGALLY, the we being the US Government & Law Enforcement.
So before you be too hard on China try Googleing Human Right Violations you will get about 4.2Million LINKS:smile:, and you will see a list of countries to long to list that someone, some group, or some other country is say another Country is committing Human Right Violations.
National Geographic ran a series about TOUGH PRISONS. Black Dolphin Prison in Russia could be accused by some of Human Right Violations, but what I see is a tough no BS approach to punishing those who are Russia's worst of the worst.
You know, the irony here is that you support someone that is well known for human rights issues.. Sheriff Joe, funny you only come to China (JB's) defense when the issue arises against them.
Dude, the other irony is I cannot even call you brainwashed because you're missing an integral part of that word.
JV
I'm not trying to defend China, because China does commit a lot of human rights violations. (as does the US at times, ie. somewhere near Cuba). I'm not from China. I just work here. What I do for living does not in any way or form take away US jobs.
But would it make it ok for the Chinese to "take" "American jobs" if there are no human rights violations? Just wondering. Because it sounds like what people are implying.
Also, I have 3 dogs. I don't eat dogs or cats or any common pet animals. But I bet there are a lot of Muslims in this world who think I'm a monster for eating pork. I mean. Pork?
But would it make it ok for the Chinese to "take" "American jobs" if there are no human rights violations? Just wondering. Because it sounds like what people are implying.
Also, I have 3 dogs. I don't eat dogs or cats or any common pet animals. But I bet there are a lot of Muslims in this world who think I'm a monster for eating pork. I mean. Pork?
Well everyone has there own views. IMHO and I am sure poolplayer would agree, the issue is not only the human rights situation, but a plethora of issues from low pay, to benefits but more importantly global issues such as pollution etc. Now the US has gone through this in our industrial revolution and we are still paying for it, in cities and rivers and toxic superfund sites.
I am sure a lot of American wish our government funded our manufacturing sectors to eliminate competition worldwide.
The Muslims and pork are a religous rite. Are you telling me their is a culinary canine and feline religion in China?
Indians don't eat beef, but they still make roast beef sandwiches here at our convienence stores. But again, I don't have a cow playing with a tennis ball in my living room either.JV
I was going to offer my opinion with regards to cue design thread, but now I'm a bit confused...it seems this has turned into a USA vs. China thread...
If this gets back on track, I'd love to have some input...
Jason
p.s. I think there's TONS of "buy-American" threads in the NPR section...
If this gets back on track, I'd love to have some input...
Jason
p.s. I think there's TONS of "buy-American" threads in the NPR section...
Please give me the support other refuse to, and add something to the original thread, whether you agree with me or not your comments are more than welcome.
Thanks for your consideration.
So you are saying that it is a fact that American labor is priced too high and that American people are lazy?
I don't remember saying that nor do I remember it being a "fact" that I have read anywhere.
However I will be happy to quote your opinion stating that these are facts.
You and playa are just upset that people in China and other countries are knocking off the American Dream. Someone said on here once that it's a war between Capitalism and Communism and Capitalism is winning. This is what your victory looks like.
And by the way, next time you want to throw down the hypocrite label on someone you ought to not employ illegal immigrants in your construction business.
As for the racism, yeah when you assign negative attributes to an entire race then it's racism. Beside that what do you have against eating dogs? It's not like 'China" is sending Wushu Monks dressed in knockoff ninja suits to kidnap your pink toy poodle to serve in China's version of Buffalo Wild Wings, called American Poodle Toes. Ever eat veal? Out in Colorado you can drive by veal farms where the baby cows are kept chained to a dog house so that they can't do anything but stay confined to one very small area, how barbaric.... but all Chinese do not eat dogs which you would know if you spent any time getting your information from some other source than google news.
The thing is Joe that you and playa both spout nonsense that indicates that you feel that America and Americans are SUPERIOR to China and the Chinese. If true then THAT by itself is racist. America as a nation IS SUPERIOR in some things and INFERIOR in others.
But America is not better just because it's America. America, like China, and like every country on the Earth, is a work in progress. It is a collection of people who all HAPPEN to live under one flag and one political system. They don't get to vote out the whole political system each year so they have to live WITH the system that their ancestors put in place with violent means. All of these people are individuals who are each trying to make their way in the world the best way they can. Most are good honest people who don't seek to harm anyone else in any way while they pursue their version of happiness and security. Some are predators who exploit the weakness and ignorance of others. And some are evil and malicious bent on destroying everything that they can.
So what? That is simply called life. The fact that you are an American is simply an accident of fate. That doesn't make you better than any other human being on the planet. Being an American doesn't even make you better than the Chinese dog about to be killed for dinner. It just makes you luckier.
So you can squander that luck by spending your time putting down whole other races or you can use it to be a force for positive change. That's on you, you were lucky enough to be born into circumstances that give you the opportunity to make that choice easier. Many people around the world live in harsh that conditions you can't even begin to imagine and they still manage to choose to be positive influences on their communities.
What's your excuse?
Sheriff Joe makes criminals know they are not a CLUB FED, when he put them in his slammer be it the 4th. Street Jail, Towers Jails, or Joe's Tent City.
I do not defend China because of JBCases, I defend China because we need the commodities they make in China that we use daily, or need daily.
The reason China got our Jobs is because of U.S. Labor Law, US Labor Union Contracts who want janitors making $25.00/hr like at GM, Member of the Legislative branch of the US Government, and US President who sign Trade Agreement with China, and other Countries who got some AMERICAN JOBS thank to people like Jack Welch of GE who was the FIRST TO OUT SOURCE JOB TO FOREIGN COUNTRIES.
JV is you want to return to the good old days, like it was in the USA. Get a PASSPORT and move to Cuba, a Country that has stood still in time, and you could drive a 1950's Vintage American Car, and live the life of a free person, with opportunities in good old CUBA. Open a Pool Room, and Sell Cues & Cases made in the USA.
Craig, I love you buddy, really. But you know that this shit is going to go down once "China" is involved. I didn't start it but I will be damned to hell if I let the bigots and the racists get away with coming in and making sniping comments that have no merit whatsoever.
The topic at hand has been discussed to death and you know it. There will never be agreement on the cue design theft topic.
For me it's really simple. Taking a cue design that someone else did verbatim is design theft. Whether legal or not it's theft of a specific arrangement. If you copy something then it's a copy, no bones about it. You STOLE the design.
Now, is that THEFT morally wrong? Some people say yes, no grey area, a thief is a thief and theft is wrong. Other people say that art is an expression and how can an expression be owned? If Mike Massey invents a trick shot then no one calls out all the other trick shot artists for thievery when they perform it. (well, I know that SOME trick shot artists get catty about "their" shots)
The point is that we DO have laws that govern copied goods. We can "feel bad" all we want to about it when things get copied but the fact is that it's going to happen anyway and the only person really affected is the person who was copied. And that person should express their feelings whether outrage, legal action, or even benevolence as some designers are not bothered by it.
It's funny that we even use the term "knockoff artists". We say that such people have no talent, no creativity, no morals, no character, and yet we still call them artists.
We are fundamentally divided in our minds as to what we truly believe is ok and not ok when it comes to copying. We encourage our children to copy our good examples but then when they get older we tell them copying is wrong. We say be good like Jimmy but don't be good like Jimmy Choo.
We make comparisons between successful people like saying so-and-so is the Steve Jobs of his industry and applaud him if he blatantly copies Steve's way of doing business. But if he copies Steve's products then he is the scum of the Earth.
Right now, this very moment, there is a pair of Vincintore cases for sale in the WFS section. Those are knockoff, ripoffs of the instroke Cowboy design.
Not you, not anyone except for me, on AZB in the entire time I have been here has EVER denigrated a seller of those knockoffs. Not once has a seller been called out for "ripping off" Instroke. Why not?
How about all the Whitten knockoffs being sold? No one, not once has anyone but me said a word about it.
But if someone puts up a case that looks just a little bit like a Jack Justis case then the pitchforks and ropes come out IF the case maker is unknown or disliked. If the case maker is liked then he gets a free pass on making Justis-like designs.
And THIS is the fundamental problem with this subject. People are simply BIASED. Almost everyone on this forum is a hypocrite in some way or another when it comes to design "theft" because everyone has things that they let pass while demonizing others for the copying the products they are passionate about.
So really, the way I see it is that when someone presents a cue design or a case design then the presenter ought to mention the influence or someone else ought to and that's that. With no malice, no burning at the stake. If it's a cue maker that decides he is going to make his way in the world by adopting the styles of others then so be it. His customers will be those who are into buying low-rent versions of the real thing. Sometimes though a cue maker can decide to work in the style of someone else and the result is a better cue than the real thing. So it can go either way.
Instead of labeling everyone with negativity we should simply categorize them accurately. A cue company that makes dead-ringer knockoffs is a design thief. Legal or not that's what they are. A cue maker who works in the SW style is not a design thief they are simply turned on by a particular look and feel.
Getting all pissed off like it's the end of the world does not help. It's not the end of the world. I know, my designs have been knocked off more than anyone else on this forum bar none. I have come to realize that on the other end are just people trying to make their way through life and they are using my designs to do it. I don't like it, I don't condone it, I wish that I could make some money off it, but I have to live with it or it will consume me to the point that I can never create another new thing.
That would be the real crime and I would do it to myself if I allowed it to happen.
I think imitation is the highest compliment one could give.
- imitation not duplication -
Rauenzahn Full Splice with Paper Veneers
From another thread. Now I have only followed the paper veneer thing loosely but wasn't that pioneered by Haley?
This is my point. Jerry is doing a cue with paper veneers and NO ONE is jumping on the thread to denounce Rauenzahn or the buyer of the cue for the paper veneers.
Where is the line?
From another thread. Now I have only followed the paper veneer thing loosely but wasn't that pioneered by Haley?
This is my point. Jerry is doing a cue with paper veneers and NO ONE is jumping on the thread to denounce Rauenzahn or the buyer of the cue for the paper veneers.
Where is the line?
Wayne-Holmes
Professional Retiree
It was pioneered by another cue maker that didn't know how to prevent glue lines between his veneers. (Just an FYI)
Well then the point is made that no one has vilified Ron Haley for "stealing" this technique from that unknown cue maker.
Wayne-Holmes
Professional Retiree
True. .
Ok.. we'll lay off the politics at the moment. There are some recent developments in cues (popular trends), lets say 10 yrs or so. The half joint, the sleeved ivory joint with stainless insert, paper veneers, these have been copied en masse. IMHO something that adds possible hit difference would be more protected than a few shapes that are cookie cutter on a CNC.
Problem I see is in definition of what is and what isn't design theft and what or whom will choose... slotted diamonds in a 4 diamond pattern, or the Szamboti barbell, is not protected, but Surgartree scallops are? Really? Thats pretty convenient. Right, Gus is dead so I guess he cannot make a call. To me there is where the arguement gets bogus in a hurray. So when a person dies the design is ok to use now?
There is no iffy wishy washy stance. If you believe in design theft, it has to be across the board. None of this well its ok in this case but not here... Usually this is when someone that believes in CDT dosn't want to make waves with his buddy on his cues.
JV
Problem I see is in definition of what is and what isn't design theft and what or whom will choose... slotted diamonds in a 4 diamond pattern, or the Szamboti barbell, is not protected, but Surgartree scallops are? Really? Thats pretty convenient. Right, Gus is dead so I guess he cannot make a call. To me there is where the arguement gets bogus in a hurray. So when a person dies the design is ok to use now?
There is no iffy wishy washy stance. If you believe in design theft, it has to be across the board. None of this well its ok in this case but not here... Usually this is when someone that believes in CDT dosn't want to make waves with his buddy on his cues.
JV
Well everyone has there own views. IMHO and I am sure poolplayer would agree, the issue is not only the human rights situation, but a plethora of issues from low pay, to benefits but more importantly global issues such as pollution etc. Now the US has gone through this in our industrial revolution and we are still paying for it, in cities and rivers and toxic superfund sites.
I am sure a lot of American wish our government funded our manufacturing sectors to eliminate competition worldwide.
The Muslims and pork are a religous rite. Are you telling me their is a culinary canine and feline religion in China?
JV
Lower pay in China is a structural issue. I'm sure you know you can't just start paying everyone an US wage.
Pollution is a funny thing. I hope the air quality in China is much better than it is. But I know that the bad air and dirty water is because they're producing goods that help to support the quality of life for people all over the world, including the US. Would your PCs, cell phones, power tools, anything still cost as little as you paid for them if they were not manufactured in China? or somewhere with conditions like China? Probably not. Also, I think there are plenty of evidence that the US as a whole does a lot more to pollute the whole planet than any other country. The US and Europe had it's turn to pollute and go through the industrial age. It doesn't seem fair to criticize others for doing the same.
Religious or not, it's a part of some other culture's/religions norm to eat certain animals. It's not right to criticize based on your own upbringing. By the way, it's not like everybody eat dogs in China, probably a small minority of people I've met. Most actually wouldn't even dream of eating dogs.
Don't hate/snipe at/belittle the Chinese people just because the country they live in. I used to do that years ago. Then I learned during a business trip here that most people I've met are just as kind and hardworking as most people I've met elsewhere. They work hard in conditions and for pay that most US citizens wouldn't accept. For what? Not so they can have the satisfaction for "taking" someone job in the US. But so they can have a chance to provide for themselves and families.