Please settle a couple of arguments/debates:

S

scolex

Registered
Let me preface this with the fact that I am attempting to remove all bias so you don't know which side I am on.
Hypothetical situations:

Firstly two guys debating on the importance of angle vs speed vs English when shooting a bank shot. Anyone with even a small percentage of a functional brain knows angle is most important so we are down to speed vs English.
Due to table layout you have a perfectly tight bank shot to where the angle of attack is defined and any deviation left or right of the available path will result in a foul. The shot may or may not be a dead bank and a double kiss may or may not be a concern we are only trying to determine the bigger influence shot speed or applied/transferred English.
Player A (Mr. MPH) states: speed control is the most critical factor on whether you fail or succeed to pocket the ball.
Player B (Mr. Spin) states English is the most critical factor on whether you fail or succeed to pocket the ball.

Secondly: In this equation speed and English are defined (pure roll with no over/under spin and zero side spin). For clarification the LD1/RD1 (Left Dot1/Right Dot1) etc referenced below are from the break position perspective the rack spot being between LD1 and RD1 and the break spot would be between/behind LD4 and RD4.
Player 1 states that if the cue ball is inline between the dots LD1 and RD1 and roughly 1" from the side rails and the object ball is inline between LD2 and RD2 and the same distance from the opposite side rail as the object that the resulting bank is a dead dot to dot bank.
Player 2 states that the bank is only dead when both balls are inline with their respective dots if both balls are on the rail and when you move either along the line between LD1 and RD1 or LD2 and RD2 the attack angle must be adjusted from dead to induce a reaction that results in a pocketed ball.

Who is correct:
Player A or B?
Player 1 or 2?
 
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A diagram would be nice. Lol

If I understand correctly, from the description of the shot, it doesn't sound like a dead bank. The ball will land half a diamond short of the pocket unless outside spin is used.
 
I don’t know about “more important”, but spin alone can accomplish a wider range of rebound angle options than speed alone, so I’d give the spin dude the win.

As often as not though, they’re going to be used in conjunction with each other to give the final result required…
 
BC21 said:
A diagram would be nice. Lol

If I understand correctly, from the description of the shot, it doesn't sound like a dead bank. The ball will land half a diamond short of the pocket unless outside spin is used.
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Player 1 says both are dot to dot banks, Player 2 says only the left bank is.
 

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Both shots look like double kisses to me, especially the frozen one, the one on the left.

The one on the right would require draw to avoid the double kiss, and the added speed would make it hit way shorter than it would hit anyway if there was no double kiss. Move the balls another couple of inches off the rail and it would probably be a dead bank, at least it looks like it would.
 
David in FL said:
I don’t know about “more important”, but spin alone can accomplish a wider range of rebound angle options than speed alone, so I’d give the spin dude the win.

As often as not though, they’re going to be used in conjunction with each other to give the final result required…
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I agree it is a combination of all three.
What started the whole conversation was I overheard Mr. MPH tell someone that speed is the most critical factor in a bank shot.
I said English is more critical because it has a bigger influence on how the object ball comes off the rail.
Not sure why he couldn't grasp the concept so I proceeded to make the bank he had setup 3 times in a row using pocket, medium and firm speeds while making small adjustments to angle and English.
I tried to explain that the difference in angle off the rail change is relatively small between a soft and firm shot but English can have a relatively large influence on the resulting angle.
He just kept saying that by using English you are adding another variable which narrows the margin for error. I stated that English is not an additional variable because tip to cue placement is still a variable even if you hit dead center and has to be controlled regardless of intention.
I also tried to explain that English is a necessity at times and it can increase your chance of pocketing the ball on many shots once you get a feel for it.
 
Both, but more importantly, whichever each shooter is more proficient with. You're arguing preference. It can be scientific but can you deliver the exact stroke every time to test. It would be interesting to see a test between the two, but in the end it all boils down to what you're comfortable shooting. I like the thinnest of thin table length cuts more than banking, but my buddy can bank anything and doesn't like super thin cuts. Who is right?
 
scolex said:
Player 1 says both are dot to dot banks, Player 2 says only the left bank is.
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Ok....with the updated diagram...both shots double kiss with a full hit. At least that's what it looks like to me. I say neither bank shot is possible with a full/straight-on aim. So both players are wrong. Move the ob 3 or 4 more inches from the rail and it might be a dead bank then.
 
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boogieman said:
Both, but more importantly, whichever each shooter is more proficient with. You're arguing preference. It can be scientific but can you deliver the exact stroke every time to test. It would be interesting to see a test between the two, but in the end it all boils down to what you're comfortable shooting. I like the thinnest of thin table length cuts more than banking, but my buddy can bank anything and doesn't like super thin cuts. Who is right?
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I agree that it's a preference but there are times that the bank can't be made regardless of speed and some form of English must be used to pocket the ball. To me that makes spin control more critical.
 
BC21 said:
Ok....with the updated diagram...both shots double kiss with a full hit. At least that's what it looks like to me. I say neither bank shot is possible with a full/straight-on aim.
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I agree both have a high probability for a double kiss that wasn't a factor in the conversation though.
He had setup a shot with the object ball on the rail in front of the dot nearest the side pocket and the cue a few inches from the rail straight out from the center dot . He stated that it was a straight dot to dot bank. I told him that since the CB was not on the rail that the shot was not a straight dot to dot bank.
I mapped it out in CAD and if the combined ball to rail distances are > 2" while keeping the dot relations the result will be a miss with a straight hit.
No accounting for possible double kiss or altered restitution simply the angles.
 
scolex said:
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No accounting for possible double kiss or altered restitution simply the angles.
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That may be, but the shots are double kisses as drawn. For many people, that will make them pointless to talk about. Is it possible to redraw them to illustrate your point where both can be made?

To sort of answer your question, the left shot is clearly a perfect mirror bank shot if hit full and the cue ball evaporates magically. Such banks bank short for an object ball that close to the cushion.

The right shot obviously has some adjustment that will help both the kiss and the shortness, but probably not enough. It is not on the line of any standard banking system.

As for whether any of players 1, 2, A or B is correct, see the first sentence above. I'd count them all as wrong for arguing about what spin/speed should be used or has most effect on a shot that is probably impossible.

It might help your considerations to know that if an object ball is on or very near the cushion, speed does not affect the bank angle significantly. Many players don't know this but it is very easy to demonstrate.
 
Bob Jewett said:
speed does not affect the bank angle significantly. Many players don't know this but it is very easy to demonstrate.
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That is exactly what I was trying to explain to him and I tried to demonstrate that fact by making the same bank at 3 very different speeds striking the ball to go slightly long and using English to bring the ball back to the pocket.
 
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Patrick Johnson said:
You left the critical qualifier out of Bob's statement:

"...if an object ball is on or very near the cushion, speed does not affect the bank angle significantly."

pj
chgo
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I omitted it because the shot the guys was explaining to another shooter when I interjected was froze to the rail.
To add a little background I have seen the guy give inaccurate advice to others in the past and ignored it. This time it was given to one of my team members so I felt the need to say something.
 
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The winner is the guy looking at the two dudes dreaming of banks, thinking to himself that they should just play safe instead :)

While I'm not a "bank guy", I am heavily invested in shots that require 'spin induced throw'. That has translated into minor proficiency with manlipulating simple banks with transfered CB english.

I can't say which is more vital to making a bank shot (spd vs english), but I do know without a doubt that english is more versatile in controlling the outcome.
 
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