poker vs. pool

[jason]

game1 ** *P***Pronunciation Key**(gm)
n.
1 An activity providing entertainment or amusement; a pastime: party games; word games.
2 a A competitive activity or sport in which players contend with each other according to a set of rules: the game of basketball; the game of gin rummy.
b A single instance of such an activity: We lost the first game.
c games An organized athletic program or contest: track-and-field games; took part in the winter games.
d A period of competition or challenge: It was too late in the game to change the schedule of the project.

sport ** *P***Pronunciation Key**(spôrt, sprt)
n.
1 a Physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively.
b A particular form of this activity.
2 An activity involving physical exertion and skill that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often undertaken competitively

____________________________________________________

A sport can be a game, but a game is not necessiarly a sport.

You can play a baseball game, basketball game or a game of football. All are sports. Each requires athletic ability to play competitively.

Poker is a game. It doesn't require any athletic ability to play competitively.

Pool is a game of hand eye coordination but not an athletic sport. It is somewhere inbetween, but closer to a game then a sport in my opinion.

Some will try to argue symantics by saying Pool requires a "physical" ability and poker requires the ability to push in chips or click a mouse button, but we all no it is not what the definition means.

_______________________________________________

Will Poker take over Pool? ...No way! But it will and has influenced our game. Some positive and some negative. Other factors are having a big influence on the game as well are: gas prices, price of pool, plane tickets, video games, the internet, marriage etc. etc. etc.

 

[BillyKoda]

Well there's another debate we could have on the subject George! Is sex a sport? What is a regulation table? How do you place your wager and handicap it? What constitutes a set? And I won't even go in to what might be a foul.

Too many questions to ponder.

BK

 

[Eric.]

When they started televising it on ESPN.

I think I saw a Spelling Bee on ESPN, once.


Eric >Scrabble tourney too

 

[wannaplaySOME?]

espn....

I think I saw a Spelling Bee on ESPN, once.


Eric >Scrabble tourney too

I definitely saw championship dominoes at the bar the other day on one of their flat panal tv's... who puts championship dominoes on at the bar????

 

[catscradle]

Poker isn't a sport.

To add a little fuel to the fire, Texas Hold'em isn't poker. IMHO.

 

[wannaplaySOME?]

lol!

To add a little fuel to the fire, Texas Hold'em isn't poker. IMHO.

AT TIMES... it is like a crap shoot!

 

[wannaplaySOME?]

prohibit online gambling?

Poker and pool are beginning to overlap. A couple of times now, players have brought their laptops to the monthly nineball tournament at the poolroom and play during the tournament. They miss a shot and run to the computer to see what's going on. You have to call their matches 2 or 3 times before they'll leave the poker game to play their match. There are always a handful of players anxious to play the poker game,while the player plays his match. One well known one-pocket player will be playing 4-5 games of poker simultaneously AND winning his nineball matches AND the tournament. I don't forbid computer poker during the pool tournament, because there is so much down time between matches (sometimes). This particular player had a four hour wait between winning the hot seat and playing in the finals (though this was an unusual circumstance)....
This may all change with new law prohibiting online gambling and then many of the poker players will find their way back to pool... imo
Doug

Do you think this will actually happen or do you think the government will find a way to dip its finger in it and find a way to make money as well with all the sites?

 

[Southpaw]

well, while that is up for debate... and certain people in this forum seem to absolutely HATE whenever i strike up any form of "debate"... I can't take a stance either way except to be the devil's advocate so here I go...

"activities that are competitive, have formal rules, require physical effort and skills, and are organised within institutional structures
www.health.qld.gov.au/npag/glossary.asp"

1. please note that this profession website spelled ORGANIZED wrong.. that was the first thing I saw...

Now let's disect this definition
"activities that are competitive"
poker does this - you are competing for money, pride, whatever

"have formal rules"
poker has this -- but are not universal, but they are working on that

"require physical effort"
this is where it becomes debatable, however poker does require the same stamina that pool does to an extent... to sit a 36 hour session at 20/40 holdem requires some stamina--also playing a tournament that started at 10pm and finishing it off at 6am and still having work the next day also requires stamina--
It also requires physical effort to actually fold the cards and throw in chips in an optimal way whereas they do not roll off the table or hit people

"requires skills"
Poker requires a great deal of skills including having the knowledge of starting hands and reading your opponent

"organiSed within institutional structures"
whether the taj mahal or the bellagio are to be considered institutional structures is also up for debate, but I can garauntee that they would debate that they are...

thanks! enjoy work!

Well by these guide lines a spelling bee could also be a sport. The physical part would be getting up out of the chair and walking to the microphone to spell the word. There is no physical ability needed in poker. Stamina, I do agree with. You can go to any casino and play video poker.

Southpaw

 

[wannaplaySOME?]

hm...

Well by these guide lines a spelling bee could also be a sport. The physical part would be getting up out of the chair and walking to the microphone to spell the word. There is no physical ability needed in poker. Stamina, I do agree with. You can go to any casino and play video poker.

Southpaw

you are correct, i cannot argue one way or the other, because while we may argue that poker is not a sport, many debate that pool is not one either, and you know we have all fought for that cause.... i was merely playing devil's advocate..

 

[Southpaw]

you are correct, i cannot argue one way or the other, because while we may argue that poker is not a sport, many debate that pool is not one either, and you know we have all fought for that cause.... i was merely playing devil's advocate..

I know. After re-reading my post it kinda sounded like I was blasting you and I wasnt trying to. Sorry if it came off that way. I just really do think pool is a sport

Southpaw

 

[JoeyInCali]

I might have to switch to poker soon.
Arthritis in the hands are getting bad.
Then again, those players I know who are now Moneymaker wannabes are all good players. They are all making money. I hope they do b/c they are back living with their parents and I bet their parents ask for rent.
Joey~Knows poker players equal pathological liars ~

 

[SUPERSTAR]

Got to go where the money is.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=21625

 

[wannaplaySOME?]

I just had to repost your response to that post...

Got to go where the money is.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=21625

YES i think poker is killing pool action. But not the live games, i think that INTERNET poker is what's doing the job.

I just got done what had to be the PUREST most unadulterated carnage that i have ever been witness to, aside from standing on the floor at the New York Stock Exchange.

Otherwise known as the daily $2 NO LIMIT HOLD EM unlimited RE-BUYS, and 1 ADD ON SPEED TOURNAMENT (blinds increase every 3 minutes) at Party Poker.
TOTAL INSANITY, but i had a smile on my face the whole time.

I go into the local pool room, and i might get some action. But it's usually a bunch of hot air that gets exchanged, and ends up being a waste of time.

But i sat down today, and although i got tortured pretty hard these 2 hands to bust out, my $2 purchase with no rebuys, gave me a shot to win

1st $4297.48
2nd $2189.22
3rd $1636.80
4th $1227.60
5th $1023
etc
etc
etc
141st-180th $16.36

and that was with

Entries/1584
Re-Buys/8321
Add-Ons/292

Now if i want a pool game, i have to go camp out, and sit there for hours and wait, which usually ends up being a big waste of time.

So why would i subject myself to that, if for the same amount of money i might spend on table time, i can be in action ALL DAY!
And like most other gamblers, i would think that for pool players that do gamble, the action IS the juice! It doesn't matter WHAT they might gamble on.

I'm not saying that people should quit pool, and look towards poker to make a living, cause that's just as tough of a grind
BUT..... i can totally understand someone not wanting to venture out to the pool hall, when they can be couch potatoed with a laptop, tv on, and drink in hand.
You can NEVER get odds on the money like the tournament i just played in, in a pool hall.
Maybe on a lottery ticket, but not on the pool table, and certainly not EVERY DAY!

I can totally understand why pool might be fading, if poker happens to be the culprit

You don't have to go anywhere to play, which makes it that much easier to just stay at home.
__________________
SUPERSTAR


MY FAVORITE PART WAS WHEN YOU SAID "Now if i want a pool game, i have to go camp out, and sit there for hours and wait, which usually ends up being a big waste of time." ITS THE HORRIBLE TRUTH AND ITS THE REALITY OF WHAT THIS HAS BECOME.

 

[JPB]

To add a little fuel to the fire, Texas Hold'em isn't poker. IMHO.

I strongly disagree with this, even though I prefer other games. Or at least would if I got to play them. Holdem has taken over which is unfortunate in some ways, but one reason it has taken over is because it is a good game. Very complicated yet seemingly simple.

 

[Dakota Cues]

Well, I'll try to shed a little light on this from my perspective, since I consider myself a semi-pro at poker with an interest in pool. By semi-pro, I mean one who, while I have a "Day" job, a good chunk of my income is derived from online poker play. Specifically Short Handed (6 max) No Limit Texas Holdem. By the way, my day job will end and my full time poker job will begin starting January 1, 2007.


In this rather long post I'm going to give my opinions on some of the previous replys. These are just my opinions.


1. Poker is easier to make a living at than pool: I remember reading an article on Sarah Rousey (or however that's spelled) that talked about the fact that a lot of the pool players on the road live at home since they can't even afford to pay rent anywhere and they travel a lot. At poker, you can make a living without even leaving your living room (if your computer is there, of course). To make serious money at pool, you need to travel... which means traveling and other expenses. Grant it you also need special equipment, but this leads me to another point

2. The overhead for Serious Poker is actually higher than pool: You need money to gamble in either game, but the swings at poker can be pretty ugly, especially in the shorthanded games. A 5 buyin loss is not uncommon. This is when you are playing well, but getting big hands cracked. A typical rule of thumb is that you want between 20-50 buyins for the level you are playing at. More is always better than less. At some of the bigger games, these 20-50 buyins could be $20,000-$500,000. Think those numbers are inflated? Just watch the $10,000 NL games on ubet and see what big money is. I doubt there are more than a handful of pool players that could come up with that amount in cash. Speaking of which...

3. The BIG money is in Poker, Period - The largest pool tournament payday I have ever heard of is that 8-ball, challenge Mike Sigel thing on cable for a million dollars. The world Series of poker's main event will reach almost 10 million this year. Want cash games instead of tournaments? I'm sure there have been some big money cash pool games. I doubt these have come close to a million, but Todd Brunson (Doyle's son) beat a very rich business man out of over 13 MILLION in 2 days playing High stakes (like $50K/100K) limit holdem poker. There is absolutely NO comparison when it comes to money with these two games. Poker will ALWAYS win the battle of money hands down.

4. Skill: You have to give the nod to pool on this one. Not that Poker is easy by any stretch of the imagination, but with pool you need knowledge AND coordination. Not just strategy, but the ability to actually execute physical motion in a very exact way. Also note that skill is very different from knowledge, which brings me to my next point...

5. Knowledge: Poker, no contest again. In pool, you have to play the table layout. In poker, you play a variety of opponents that are constantly changing. You are also dealing with incomplete information that is ever changing, as well as human psychology. You are thinking what your opponent has, what they think you have, and what they think you think they have. This is not needed in pool due to working with complete information.

6. Difficulty: Again, poker takes this one. Don't believe me? Here's an example to make this super clear. Say you break and run a rack in whatever pool game you play. Does it matter if your opponent was Efren Reyes, or a stuffed animal? Nope. Contrast that with poker where you are playing against a variety of opponets on every round of betting, for every hand you play. In poker, it makes a HUGE difference if you're playing Phil Ivey or just some idiot who thinks he's Phil Ivey.

7. Unique Advantage: Poker (Specifically internet poker). Online play where you don't need to leave your home AND the ability to play multiple tables at the same time, with player tracking software and notes at your fingertips.


Random thoughts:

*Poker is NOT a sport. It's a game. Just becuase something is on ESPN doesn't make it a sport. Spelling isn't a sport, and I saw that on ESPN, too.

*Poker IS a Real job. Somebody said earlier that these kids should get an education and a real job. Poker is a real job, and reason they play poker instead of going to work is that they make way more money playing poker and don't have to listen to idiots at work doing it.

*Playing either game for a living is much harder than playing for fun. A lot of people can make a few extra bucks here and there. To make enough to live on, you need to actually BE good, not just THINK you're good. We keep track of this with money, plain and simple.

*You don't need to be Great, to make a living at either game. You just need to play better than your competition. Game selection is key here. Don't think of this as golf where a 70 shooter will beat an 80 shooter almost as much as an 90 shooter. You make money by playing the 90 shooter's that think they're 80 shooters!


Again, these are just my opinions, but hopefully they give you a little more to think about.

 

[sliprock]

I don't think that poker itself is a threat to pool. It's the easy access. Used to be that the only places that you could get your gambling fix was at the racetrack, poolroom, your local bookie, or Vegas. Now everywhere you look you see a riverboat of some kind. Online gambling, Lotto's etc. The Suckers are in heaven. They used to take their money to the poolroom or local poker game where they had a shot at winning.Now they take it to a riverboat or casino where they have zero outs. Even playing poker is a trap with the way these casino's rake the games. IMO, Casino's, Lotto's and online Gambling have killed pool action..

 

[Steve Lipsky]

6. Difficulty: Again, poker takes this one. Don't believe me? Here's an example to make this super clear. Say you break and run a rack in whatever pool game you play. Does it matter if your opponent was Efren Reyes, or a stuffed animal? Nope. Contrast that with poker where you are playing against a variety of opponets on every round of betting, for every hand you play. In poker, it makes a HUGE difference if you're playing Phil Ivey or just some idiot who thinks he's Phil Ivey.

Thanks for a very well-written post, Dakota. The issue above is the only one I disagree with.

You can break and run against Efren, but you're not going to break and run the set on him. And if you don't, unless you are a super-top player, you're going to lose the set.

But any idiot can easily bust Phil Ivey, especially late in a tournament when stack size relative to the blinds is so low. His advantage of being able to outplay postflop is nullified, as you see by the all-in fests late-tournament action becomes.

Even before late-tournament play, bad players make outrageously bad calls all the time. But that's why large tournaments like the WSOP Main Event are such mine fields. In fact, as you know, one of the main advantages any knowledgeable poker player has is the ability to make moves. But there's a lot of literature (and you see it all the time) about the danger of making moves against bad players - they don't realize what you're doing/representing. They call you down with third pair when 9 out of 10 times you'll be destroying them. So when the idiot wins that hand, was it difficult? Not at all, he just refused to fold and wound up with the better hand.

Even cash games, which are more difficult, have this phenomenon. Guys have their session bankrolls busted all the time by less skilled players. It doesn't matter that over the long run you'll see who's better - for that one day, or that month, the bad player emerged victorious. Nothing like that will happen at the top level of pool.

Anyway, just my opinion. Good luck at the tables and thanks again for a nice post.

- Steve

P.S. Are you worried about the internet gambling bill? It seems upon closer examination that, like its predecessors, it's probably going nowhere...

 

[Cameron Smith]

Thanks for a very well-written post, Dakota. The issue above is the only one I disagree with.

You can break and run against Efren, but you're not going to break and run the set on him. And if you don't, unless you are a super-top player, you're going to lose the set.

But any idiot can easily bust Phil Ivey, especially late in a tournament when stack size relative to the blinds is so low. His advantage of being able to outplay postflop is nullified, as you see by the all-in fests late-tournament action becomes.

Even before late-tournament play, bad players make outrageously bad calls all the time. But that's why large tournaments like the WSOP Main Event are such mine fields. In fact, as you know, one of the main advantages any knowledgeable poker player has is the ability to make moves. But there's a lot of literature (and you see it all the time) about the danger of making moves against bad players - they don't realize what you're doing/representing. They call you down with third pair when 9 out of 10 times you'll be destroying them. So when the idiot wins that hand, was it difficult? Not at all, he just refused to fold and wound up with the better hand.

Even cash games, which are more difficult, have this phenomenon. Guys have their session bankrolls busted all the time by less skilled players. It doesn't matter that over the long run you'll see who's better - for that one day, or that month, the bad player emerged victorious. Nothing like that will happen at the top level of pool.

Anyway, just my opinion. Good luck at the tables and thanks again for a nice post.

- Steve

P.S. Are you worried about the internet gambling bill? It seems upon closer examination that, like its predecessors, it's probably going nowhere...

I just want to add one thing to what you said.

I have heard of plenty of poker players, learning and playing the game serious for a year or two and then are able play top level poker. This is made possible because it is an entirely cerebral game.

You will never hear of a pool player competing with the top men two years after picking up a cue for the first time.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

I think that the one distinction separating the 2 games, is that you can be a total retard, and still win a poker tournament.

In pool, if your a retard, you getting knocked out of the tournament.
No question about it. I don't care WHO you are, but if you got to the finals or deep into the tournament, you've got skill.
ESPECIALLY in a pro event.

It's just not the same in poker, your basically playing 2 card poker when it winds down to the last stages of the tournament where you either catch a flop or don't, and it's all up to the gods at that point.
ANYONE can win.

 

[JoeyInCali]

How difficult is poker when a loser like Chris Moneymaker wins a bracelet?
He caught more river card in one day more than I've slopped a 9-ball in my whole life.