Poll--how many think we should have this?

classiccues said:
In purple Jim are things that have NOTHING to do with this conversation. Things you bought up against Mark in a feeble attempt to cloud the issues and take swings at someone who is not here. Since this is between US, leave all the crap out of it. You want to debate my list, OK. But to do so, post yours. Fair is fair. Otherwise, shut the hell up.

Joe
Click to expand...
Joe what you miss is we aren't having any conversation, you keep saying I'm bringing things up that have nothing to do with "OUR" problem. How many times must I tell you "WE" don't have any problem. Go away. Stop stalking. I gave an opinion about why you put 2 names on your list of the TOP 3 cuemakers, my points were all very clear and you lied and again clouded the issue with your rebuttal. I asked how many cues YOU bought that weren't from those on your list you put down 1 guy who was on the list (white) that doesn't count. You added 2 cues that were not yours and you added another cue that was Marks, yet you failed to give the number of the other two. You are a liar plane and simple, I think people would have more respect for you if you came up with a better lie and said " I think these guys are doing good work and that's why I sell them" instead of all the BS about how you believe they deserve to be in the top 3. Stop with the BS if you want to remain in the spot light you can keep on your stalking, I'm going to ignore it. If you want to talk about cowards then let's bring up how you have me blocked from IM and have not e-mailed me once and refuse to take this out of the public spotlight, you don't have a problem with me you just want attention. You think it's funny that I debated your opinion yet you want to continually trash mine guess what Joe it doesn't go both ways, no matter how much you want to twist this thread I will continue to say that the only reason those guys are on your list is because you actively sell their cues and they are the only 2 people who make cues for YOU. I gave plenty of facts and you ignored them, this is my opinion Sorry if you don't like it, but it's mine and can't be wrong. You also keep claiming I am a wanna be, what the hell does that mean? I wanna be what? Are you drunk?

Jim

PS If you believe “WE” have a problem E-mail me and work it out, if you just want the attention keep doing what you are doing.
 
ScottR said:
I wish they would just name names and tell the stories /
Click to expand...
That'd be no fun.

It all boils down to these essentials:

Would it be any fun if there was a separate bickering forum? Answer: No. Without bickering and heated flame wars, nobody would appreciate the level-headed posts.

And for the JimBo and Joe debates, these are the only things in this current discussion that anyone who has read this thread should ponder:

1) Does anyone get anything out of what either of the two write?

2) Is it really possible that of all the cuemakers Joe is in touch with, that he truly believes that two cuemakers in his home state are in the top 3?

3) Is blatant design theft okay?

4) Does JimBo know anything other than heavily treading around issues.

Fred
 
OK. This is all I have to say in reference to Joe, Jimbo, and Cornerstone.

Joe - Everyone out there can say what they want about Joe's choices. I know an open level player who has played with every kind of cue you can imagine from Mottey to Southwest, Bushka, to Szamboti and he chooses to play with a cue by our very own Mike Webb. Remember everyone, taste is subjective. If Joe puts Paul and Skip in his top 3 maybe its because they make cues that appeal to him more than any other maker and cues that play better to him than all others. Why is that so hard to believe? I have three playing cues: a Mottey, a Judd, and one of my all time favs, an Omen (Pete Ohman; a cuemaker that doesn't make it on to most people's lists but should!)

Jimbo - Nothing bad to say. Just curious. Why the purple font?

Cornerstone - No complaints about the site or anything like that. But please, maybe spell and grammar check your posts before submitting them. Its hard to even understand what your saying sometimes.
 
Fred Agnir said:
That'd be no fun.

It all boils down to these essentials:

Would it be any fun if there was a separate bickering forum? Answer: No. Without bickering and heated flame wars, nobody would appreciate the level-headed posts.

And for the JimBo and Joe debates, these are the only things in this current discussion that anyone who has read this thread should ponder:

1) Does anyone get anything out of what either of the two write?

2) Is it really possible that of all the cuemakers Joe is in touch with, that he truly believes that two cuemakers in his home state are in the top 3?

3) Is blatant design theft okay?

4) Does JimBo know anything other than heavily treading around issues.

Fred
Click to expand...


1. Yes...pretty simple...Jim doesn't like or repsect Joe and Joe doesn't like or respect Jim. Each other also thinks the other is crazy.

2. Yes, that is very possible knowing Joe as well as I do. I agree that if you look at the work alone, Skip Weston does much higher quality work than many, many of the big name cuemakers. It's the same reason I listed Bill McDaniel in my top 3 current cuemakers. Aside from a few others, no one can touch his level of workmanship. Trust me....it's not because cueaddict Matt has a lot of McDaniels for sale. But that would be Jimbo's logic. :)

3. In my opinion, cue design "theft" is only problematic when the end result is misrepresented and/or sold as something it is not (usually not of any doing with the actual cuemaker). People....seriously, how many different inlay variations can you do with MOP/ivory dots and diamonds can you come up with without someone on this thread saying oh my god, that's a Bushka or Boti style cue and "cue design is thievery". Get real people!!!

There's an old saying something to the effect of "we've gotten where we are by standing on the shoulders of giants". If I have Andy Gilbert build me a Szamboti style cue, I'm not going to say it's a Szamboti or attempt to sell it as one. It's clearly an Andy Gilbert cue....but credit for the design will be given to the Szamboti style/tradition. That's obviously not how Andy builds all of his cues. I'm sure that there may be some folks new to cues that may not be able to tell the difference between a Gilbert and a Szamboti (or better yet a refinished Mottey and a Szamboti)....but in reality they are what they are. I don't feel that cuemakers are crooks regarding cue design....only some low life dealers or dealer-wannabes. No names will be mentioned (but some are known).

That's how I feel about this matter. I'm sure that a lot of people may choose to agree or disagree, but hey, we live in America (not some kind of warped Utopia) and personal tastes obviously differ.

4. Doubtful.....but Fred, you should know the answer to this since you know him so well.

Just my $0.02 worth on the subject of this thread.

Sean
 
Fred Agnir said:
That'd be no fun.

It all boils down to these essentials:

Would it be any fun if there was a separate bickering forum? Answer: No. Without bickering and heated flame wars, nobody would appreciate the level-headed posts.

And for the JimBo and Joe debates, these are the only things in this current discussion that anyone who has read this thread should ponder:

1) Does anyone get anything out of what either of the two write?

2) Is it really possible that of all the cuemakers Joe is in touch with, that he truly believes that two cuemakers in his home state are in the top 3?

3) Is blatant design theft okay?

4) Does JimBo know anything other than heavily treading around issues.

Fred
Click to expand...

i think jimbo is a menace to society!
he should be executed by firing squad! :)
 
classiccues said:
Tom,
No it doesn't mean lots of love..

Hey its fun to read, but even more fun to type :D

As far as Jimbo and I.. its real.. me and cornerstone.. its more of a nuisance.

Joe
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply Joe, you still didn't say what LOL means?

I do know that we should try to get Spell Check on this forum.

By the way, I do love your Web-Site!!!

Tom-Michigan
 
Fred Agnir said:
That'd be no fun.

It all boils down to these essentials:

Would it be any fun if there was a separate bickering forum? Answer: No. Without bickering and heated flame wars, nobody would appreciate the level-headed posts.

And for the JimBo and Joe debates, these are the only things in this current discussion that anyone who has read this thread should ponder:

1) Does anyone get anything out of what either of the two write?

2) Is it really possible that of all the cuemakers Joe is in touch with, that he truly believes that two cuemakers in his home state are in the top 3?

3) Is blatant design theft okay?

4) Does JimBo know anything other than heavily treading around issues.

Fred
Click to expand...

Fred quiet down we all know you're just JimBo's puppet.

Jim
 
Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Iconcuecom,

Thank you so much.

That LOL thing was driving me crazy. :confused:

Tom :D
 
cueaddicts said:
1. Yes...pretty simple...Jim doesn't like or repsect Joe and Joe doesn't like or respect Jim. Each other also thinks the other is crazy.

Sean I thought you knew me better then that, I do like Joe, and I don't think he's crazy at all, and that's the truth.

2. Yes, that is very possible knowing Joe as well as I do. I agree that if you look at the work alone, Skip Weston does much higher quality work than many, many of the big name cuemakers. It's the same reason I listed Bill McDaniel in my top 3 current cuemakers. Aside from a few others, no one can touch his level of workmanship. Trust me....it's not because cueaddict Matt has a lot of McDaniels for sale. But that would be Jimbo's logic. :)

It has a lot to do with it, but of course I would never expect you to admit it.

3. In my opinion, cue design "theft" is only problematic when the end result is misrepresented and/or sold as something it is not (usually not of any doing with the actual cuemaker).

Your opinion would mean more to me if you were the one designing the cues or if you checked with people who do design cues, and not the guys who make a living out of stealing them.

People....seriously, how many different inlay variations can you do with MOP/ivory dots and diamonds can you come up with without someone on this thread saying oh my god, that's a Bushka or Boti style cue and "cue design is thievery". Get real people!!!

Get real?? Are you serious? With today’s CNC technology the combos and the types of inlays are limitless. Not to mention we are and have always been talking about stealing a design, not a style. I never bitched when someone made a 4 point cue with dots and diamonds, but when they put the dots and diamonds in the same exact place and size and used the same exact veneer pattern I have a problem, but again I have always been talking about other more complex works and even one of a kinds which many don't have a problem with. But the most important thing I can say on this issue is who really cares what you or I or anyone thinks? What matters is what the people who are being ripped off think, we mean nothing in the whole equation. Call up Ernie and ask what he thought when Paul stole his design, then and only then do I really care what you think about the issue. It's like a bunch of guys sitting around talking about abortion rights. I think you get my point.

There's an old saying something to the effect of "we've gotten where we are by standing on the shoulders of giants".

The old saying doesn't mention stealing from the giants.

If I have Andy Gilbert build me a Szamboti style cue, I'm not going to say it's a Szamboti or attempt to sell it as one.

Has nothing to do with trying to trick people or sell it as something different it's all about stealing something.

It's clearly an Andy Gilbert cue....but credit for the design will be given to the Szamboti style/tradition.

No it's clearly a stolen design, is Andy Gilbert not talented enough to come up with his own design or do you just not have any appreciation for his work? You don't go to Ford to buy a Corvette do you?? Again what you feel is ok means nothing to me, call up a cue maker (who makes his own designs) and ask his opinion, don't give me some crap about you giving it the ok.

That's obviously not how Andy builds all of his cues. I'm sure that there may be some folks new to cues that may not be able to tell the difference between a Gilbert and a Szamboti (or better yet a refinished Mottey and a Szamboti)....but in reality they are what they are. I don't feel that cuemakers are crooks regarding cue design....only some low life dealers or dealer-wannabes. No names will be mentioned (but some are known).

Again it's not your design and it's not you they are stealing from, you or I have no right to say what is right and what is wrong, why should we even think we should have a say? If you want a Mottey cue buy a mottey if you want a Southwest buy a southwest, don't have Coker or Ohmen build you a Southwest and then try to justify it. Why not call Laurie up and ask if it's ok with her for you to have someone else steal her design?? She might just say yes, I don't know, but it's her you are stealing from and she is alive and kicking so why not ask for permission if there is no problem with it??

That's how I feel about this matter. I'm sure that a lot of people may choose to agree or disagree, but hey, we live in America (not some kind of warped Utopia) and personal tastes obviously differ.

Tastes have little to do with stealing and the law, and again just because it's never been tested doesn't mean it's ok.

4. Doubtful.....but Fred, you should know the answer to this since you know him so well.

Just my $0.02 worth on the subject of this thread.

Sean
Click to expand...

Thanks for the change Sean.

Jim
 
Fred Agnir said:
That'd be no fun.

It all boils down to these essentials:

Would it be any fun if there was a separate bickering forum? Answer: No. Without bickering and heated flame wars, nobody would appreciate the level-headed posts.

And for the JimBo and Joe debates, these are the only things in this current discussion that anyone who has read this thread should ponder:

1) Does anyone get anything out of what either of the two write?

2) Is it really possible that of all the cuemakers Joe is in touch with, that he truly believes that two cuemakers in his home state are in the top 3?

3) Is blatant design theft okay?

4) Does JimBo know anything other than heavily treading around issues.

Fred
Click to expand...


Tap! Tap! Tap!
 
JimBo said:
I asked how many cues YOU bought that weren't from those on your list you put down 1 guy who was on the list (white) that doesn't count. You added 2 cues that were not yours and you added another cue that was Marks, yet you failed to give the number of the other two. You are a liar plane and simple, I think people would have more respect for you if you came up with a better lie and said " I think these guys are doing good work and that's why I sell them" instead of all the BS about how you believe they deserve to be in the top 3. .
Click to expand...

No, this is what you asked...
Of course you can make me look real dumb, just give a list of guys who YOU ( you not Mark) have ordered more then 1 or 2 cues in the last 5 years.

No where does it say to put people who weren't on my list. See your a liar, that was easy. It only took one easy paragraph to show what a retard you are. So who's the liar? Damn just in one post you forgot what you said. But lets go back to that... you said last 5 years.. I didn't add Marks cue, assuming you are talking about Tucker. From Tucker, I ordered big pimpin, I took an early Hoppe cue AND a plain cue I DONATED to the tri-state tour, AND I have two on order. So again your a FREAK. If I am partners on a cue its still a cue I BOUGHT. BTW Einstein, how many Fanelli's have I bought for RESALE? You want to know, a big fat ZERO. Well one, if you count the cue he made for me that someone HAD to have. I only sold it, because I can get another. Fanelli has to much going on right now and doesn't have time for dealer orders and I totally respect that. But since you asked and I feel like being a wise a$$, why should I order cues when the last two I ordered and waited YEARS for, never came. So thats why I stick to my friends, because I find you cannot trust anyone else. :D

Jimbo:Stop with the BS if you want to remain in the spot light you can keep on your stalking, I'm going to ignore it. If you want to talk about cowards then let's bring up how you have me blocked from IM and have not e-mailed me once and refuse to take this out of the public spotlight, you don't have a problem with me you just want attention.

So blocking e-mails, IM's and the like is NOT having a problem with you. It should be called stalker blocking. I don't want YOUR attention, LOL all though I know you want me to.

Jimbo: You think it's funny that I debated your opinion yet you want to continually trash mine guess what Joe it doesn't go both ways, no matter how much you want to twist this thread I will continue to say that the only reason those guys are on your list is because you actively sell their cues and they are the only 2 people who make cues for YOU. I gave plenty of facts and you ignored them, this is my opinion Sorry if you don't like it, but it's mine and can't be wrong. You also keep claiming I am a wanna be, what the hell does that mean? I wanna be what? Are you drunk?

Am I drunk, you should turn the breathalizer around. I don't trash your opinion, in fact you were to big a coward to POST your opinion. As far as your cue design soapbox, I told you what I thought and what I was going to do. You can say what you want about my list but it doesn't prove ANYTHING. You didn't give me a single fact, but I will give you one. Skips inlay work is BETTER than the top 5 on that list for similarly styled cues. Thats a fact.
But since you have broached the subject Skip made my list for the following reasons, he has been making cues since 92. He has never sought the spotlight, never tried to use any organization to his advantage, never looked for publicity, periodically anyways. He is entirely SELF taught, he didn't have the assistance a few of the top people in the poll had. He didn't have an appenticeship of any kind, he didn't latch on to a dying cuemaker, sure if his name was Skip Balabushka we probably wouldn't be having this conversation, but he didn't have any of that. (not that there is anything wrong with the above, I am just making a simple comparison) But the fact is, his cues now are perfect and I would still put them up against anything similar from anyone.
You get it now? The fact is he still is not "out there", but that doesn't change anything.

Joe (---doesn't care if you agree
 
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reply

Jim,

I was just kidding on #1.....I know you guys are ok. Just some major philosophical differences that's all.

And to address your question as to what Ernie would think about Paul doing his rendition of the feather points cue, if he were a brutally honest person, he might say "damn....that's some fine work in that cue" and be somewhat flattered that it was attempted (unless he's an uptight dude with a copyright on the design). When you look at the two cues side-by-side, it's pretty obvious to me that one was done by Ernie and one by Paul. Especially after you try a test hit or two with each. That's what I mean about maybe some less trained eyes possibly thinking otherwise. It might not make sense to you, but it's how I feel and my opinion is my opinion.

BTW, we design most all of the cues we get from Andy. We design some in Szamboti style, Bushka style, Petersen style, old Joss style, and Andy's style. They are not dead copies (i.e. veneers, inlay size, shape, location, etc.), and I would defy anyone to say they are. We also do completely new stuff with Andy. What's funny now looking back is to see how many other new cuemakers are duplicating some of the exact same styles we started having Andy do a couple of years ago. Personally, I think it's flattering....I'm not pissed because "they stole my design".

You're cool. Just make it public who your top 3 pics are. Personally I would like to know your thoughts. And why not be proud of your choices...after all it's your opinion ???

Sean
 
What time and what channel ?

This is getting like a TV Soap.

I can't wait to get home from work tomorrow so I can see what's new.

You guy's bring a smile to my tired old face. :D Sucks getting old eh?

Hey Jimbo, do you sell cue's ? If ever I win the Lotto, the big one I hope, I'll make all you guy's wealthy. Kinda like Cuegirl.............darn, now I hear she might be a guy, oh well, it well it was fun while it lasted. :(

Anyhow.................keep up the good work, I'll be checking on you guy's daily.

Tom-Michigan
 
classiccues said:
No, this is what you asked...
Of course you can make me look real dumb, just give a list of guys who YOU ( you not Mark) have ordered more then 1 or 2 cues in the last 5 years.

No where does it say to put people who weren't on my list. See your a liar, that was easy. It only took one easy paragraph to show what a retard you are. So who's the liar?

I think it's clear to see why trying to argue with you is pointless, it's implied to anyone who can read that the post is about people other then those you put on your list. The implication would be that you put those people on the list because you order from them and want to push them. I can't believe you are this dumb, but maybe it shouldn't be a shocker. And if you didn't understand the question why didn't you put down the cues you ordered from the two OTHER guys on your list?? Joe you are a moron and you let your pride get in the way a bit too much.

Damn just in one post you forgot what you said. But lets go back to that... you said last 5 years.. I didn't add Marks cue, assuming you are talking about Tucker. From Tucker, I ordered big pimpin, I took an early Hoppe cue AND a plain cue I DONATED to the tri-state tour, AND I have two on order. So again your a FREAK.

I'm glad you went on and on about something that has nothing to do with what I said, you added 2 cues that you said you were partners with, that's not you Joe, that's Mark, and if you went partners it's not Just you and you keep wanting to be separate from him so why bring him up here?? O yeah I forgot it's because in this case you feel it helps you out LOL.

If I am partners on a cue its still a cue I BOUGHT. BTW Einstein, how many Fanelli's have I bought for RESALE? You want to know, a big fat ZERO. Well one, if you count the cue he made for me that someone HAD to have. I only sold it, because I can get another. Fanelli has to much going on right now and doesn't have time for dealer orders and I totally respect that. But since you asked and I feel like being a wise a$$, why should I order cues when the last two I ordered and waited YEARS for, never came. So thats why I stick to my friends, because I find you cannot trust anyone else. :D

Jimbo:Stop with the BS if you want to remain in the spot light you can keep on your stalking, I'm going to ignore it. If you want to talk about cowards then let's bring up how you have me blocked from IM and have not e-mailed me once and refuse to take this out of the public spotlight, you don't have a problem with me you just want attention.

So blocking e-mails, IM's and the like is NOT having a problem with you. It should be called stalker blocking. I don't want YOUR attention, LOL all though I know you want me to.

Don't want anything and you're the stalker, it's easy for everyone to see who keeps trying to bait the other one into every post, most are still up Joe. There are more refrences that you make about me then the reverse, now quick run along and edit all those posts and come back and ask for proof.

Jimbo: You think it's funny that I debated your opinion yet you want to continually trash mine guess what Joe it doesn't go both ways, no matter how much you want to twist this thread I will continue to say that the only reason those guys are on your list is because you actively sell their cues and they are the only 2 people who make cues for YOU. I gave plenty of facts and you ignored them, this is my opinion Sorry if you don't like it, but it's mine and can't be wrong. You also keep claiming I am a wanna be, what the hell does that mean? I wanna be what? Are you drunk?

Am I drunk, you should turn the breathalizer around. I don't trash your opinion, in fact you were to big a coward to POST your opinion. As far as your cue design soapbox, I told you what I thought and what I was going to do. You can say what you want about my list but it doesn't prove ANYTHING. You didn't give me a single fact, but I will give you one. Skips inlay work is BETTER than the top 5 on that list for similarly styled cues. Thats a fact.

Or it's your opinion, but you seem to have trouble differentiating the two and always have.



But since you have broached the subject Skip made my list for the following reasons, he has been making cues since 92. He has never sought the spotlight, never tried to use any organization to his advantage, never looked for publicity, periodically anyways. He is entirely SELF taught, he didn't have the assistance a few of the top people in the poll had. He didn't have an appenticeship of any kind, he didn't latch on to a dying cuemaker, sure if his name was Skip Balabushka we probably wouldn't be having this conversation, but he didn't have any of that. (not that there is anything wrong with the above, I am just making a simple comparison) But the fact is, his cues now are perfect and I would still put them up against anything similar from anyone.
You get it now? The fact is he still is not "out there", but that doesn't change anything.

Joe (---doesn't care if you agree
Click to expand...

How is Skip's inlays better the Barry's, Joel's or Andy Gilberts?? And I can post a few pictures of Skip's work with crappy rounded inlays just from the last few years. I like Skip's point work and that's about it, I don't believe that can put you in the top 3 when there are many people out there who do all things well and many better then Skip including design work which I think we all know is one of the biggies in my mind. And guess what? That's my opinion and I don't care what you think LOL. And since you seem to want to keep twisting the argument I think I'm as big a supporter of Skip and I know I'm a bigger supporter of Paul's then you are, twist that. LOL

JIM
 
cueaddicts said:
Jim,

I was just kidding on #1.....I know you guys are ok. Just some major philosophical differences that's all.

And to address your question as to what Ernie would think about Paul doing his rendition of the feather points cue, if he were a brutally honest person, he might say "damn....that's some fine work in that cue" and be somewhat flattered that it was attempted (unless he's an uptight dude with a copyright on the design).

You still don't get it, I didn't ask you to guess what it would be, I asked you to call him and ask, I want you to know just how the person who really matters feels. I don't care how you think he should react or how I feel he should react. I am talking about the person who's hard work was stolen. But you keep going back to your point of view and your opinion, and I'll tell you again who cares what you or I think about it? Need his number???

When you look at the two cues side-by-side, it's pretty obvious to me that one was done by Ernie and one by Paul. Especially after you try a test hit or two with each.

I know the difference as well, but again we are talking about stealing his hard work, the reasons why don't matter, how the original artist feels is all that matters, and you haven't been paying attention if you think he has to copy write it.

That's what I mean about maybe some less trained eyes possibly thinking otherwise. It might not make sense to you, but it's how I feel and my opinion is my opinion.

And until you are the one getting ripped off I don't care what your opinion is, go straight to the top, why comment on something that has nothing to do with you? Call him up.



BTW, we design most all of the cues we get from Andy. We design some in Szamboti style, Bushka style, Petersen style, old Joss style, and Andy's style. They are not dead copies (i.e. veneers, inlay size, shape, location, etc.), and I would defy anyone to say they are. We also do completely new stuff with Andy. What's funny now looking back is to see how many other new cuemakers are duplicating some of the exact same styles we started having Andy do a couple of years ago. Personally, I think it's flattering....I'm not pissed because "they stole my design".

And you shouldn't be, because you didn't do anything original, you are to a lesser extent stealing, why should you get mad??

You're cool. Just make it public who your top 3 pics are. Personally I would like to know your thoughts. And why not be proud of your choices...after all it's your opinion ???

Sean
Click to expand...

I already gave the reasons why I didn't post my top 3, Joe is a stalker and would just try to attack them just as he's tried to attack others who he thinks I like, it's too bad he's such a complete moron that he can't even see that I am completely unbiased, and he knows it yet he's dumb, it's easy to prove but I don't feel a need to brag.

Jim
 
Tommyd said:
Hey Jimbo, do you sell cue's ?
Tom-Michigan
Click to expand...


No Tom I don't, but I may start and if I do I'll make sure to put whoever I'm selling on my top 3 list and then I'll deny that I did it just because I'm trying to sell them.

Jim
 
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