Pool ball cut-induced throw and cling/skid/kick experiment

[dr_dave]

Check out the following new online video:

NV D.16 - Pool ball cut-induced throw and cling/skid/kick experiment

It documents the results of an experiment performed to characterize the effects of different surface treatments on the amount pool balls throw. It also looks at what causes cling (AKA skid or kick). The surface treatments tested include static electricity, chalk marks, dish-washing liquid, Aramith ball cleaner, Acetone, rubbing alcohol, Silicone Spray, and sand paper.

I look forward to your comments and questions,
Dave

 

[nobcitypool]

Great information. Thanks Dr. Dave!

 

[dr_dave]

Check out the following new online video:

NV D.16 - Pool ball cut-induced throw and cling/skid/kick experiment

It documents the results of an experiment performed to characterize the effects of different surface treatments on the amount pool balls throw. It also looks at what causes cling (AKA skid or kick). The surface treatments tested include static electricity, chalk marks, dish-washing liquid, Aramith ball cleaner, Acetone, rubbing alcohol, Silicone Spray, and sand paper.

I look forward to your comments and questions,
Dave

FYI, I just got the following question on YouTube:

Would these same effects apply for simple cut-induced throw, or is there something different going on when you have frozen combinations set up? Frozen combinations don't come up all that often, but if simple cut shots can vary by several degrees depending on conditions, that affects every game.

Here's my answer, for those on AZB who might be interested:

The frozen combo responds very similarly to a stun shot of the same speed. There would only be a slight difference in the non-frozen case. For more info, see the frozen-ball throw resource page.

Catch you later,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Great information. Thanks Dr. Dave!

Thank you ... and you're welcome.

Regards,
Dave

 

[book collector]

Thanks for your time and expertise.
I had figured out long ago about the dishwashing liquids effect, and I knew about the spit on the ball from the old gaff shots we all learned.
I had always thought the chalk caused more throw than your experiment and I was really surprised at what the wax did.
I knew it made a difference but was not aware it was that much!
Thanks again for all your effort to bring billiards science into the 20th century.

 

[Dopc]

Good work Doc....

Extremely interesting tests. Thank you for taking the time to investigate the various effects from containments (or the lack there of) on the ball surface.

I'm glad you test the Aramith cleaner against the Turtle Wax. There has been a long going debate as to whether the Aramith cleaner was pretty much just a Carnuba wax product alone. There is no doubt in my mind it has Carnuba wax in the ingredients as I can certainly smell it (simply smelling an open bottle or a well used ball polisher, one can smell the Carnuba. That is assuming one uses the Aramith cleaner only). The cleaner will also dry and harden like a wax product would prior to removal, just like when you wax a car.

I suspect the Aramith cleaner also has some micro abrasive compound combined into the Aramith mixture. I say this by how fine scratches will disappear after only a few runs through a ball polisher. While the friction alone from the polisher will help in removing material from the ball, it won't do it alone in only minutes without some form of a cutting compound. At least thats what my pea sized brain can come up with.

It would be very interesting to see the lab test results on the Aramith cleaner for ingredients and percentages. At the end of the day all we are really doing is cleaning and polishing a Phenolic material. So common sense would lead one to think all that's needed is the combination of a cleaning agent, an abrasive to remove stubborn containments and minor surface abrasion and a little wax to make'em shine.

As always, Keep up the good work Dr. Dave.

Dopc.

 

[Tennesseejoe]

Very good...thanks

 

[Cracktherack]

Dave.....excellent info. Now I know how to doctor the balls for my next one-pocket game and have a good 4 ball advantage.

 

[dr_dave]

Thanks for your time and expertise.
I had figured out long ago about the dishwashing liquids effect, and I knew about the spit on the ball from the old gaff shots we all learned.
I had always thought the chalk caused more throw than your experiment and I was really surprised at what the wax did.
I knew it made a difference but was not aware it was that much!

I was also a little surprised by both the dish-washing-liquid and Turtle-Wax results.

Concerning the chalk, did you see the 45-degree-cut results in the last part of the video. The chalk increased the amount of throw by a factor of 3 (i.e., 300% increase!).

Thanks again for all your effort to bring billiards science into the 20th century.

You're welcome ... and thank you.

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Extremely interesting tests. Thank you for taking the time to investigate the various effects from containments (or the lack there of) on the ball surface.

I'm glad you test the Aramith cleaner against the Turtle Wax. There has been a long going debate as to whether the Aramith cleaner was pretty much just a Carnuba wax product alone. There is no doubt in my mind it has Carnuba wax in the ingredients as I can certainly smell it (simply smelling an open bottle or a well used ball polisher, one can smell the Carnuba. That is assuming one uses the Aramith cleaner only). The cleaner will also dry and harden like a wax product would prior to removal, just like when you wax a car.

I suspect the Aramith cleaner also has some micro abrasive compound combined into the Aramith mixture. I say this by how fine scratches will disappear after only a few runs through a ball polisher. While the friction alone from the polisher will help in removing material from the ball, it won't do it alone within minutes without some form of a cutting compound. At least thats what my pea sized brain can come up with.

It would be very interesting to see the lab test results on the Aramith cleaner for ingredients and percentages. At the end of the day all we are really doing is cleaning and polishing a Phenolic material. So common sense would lead one to think all that's needed is the combination of a cleaning agent, an abrasive to remove stubborn containments and minor surface abrasion and a little wax to make'em shine.

I don't know anything about the Aramith ingredients, but I anecdotally agree with your explanation. The Aramith cleaner is definitely leaving something behind on the phenolic surfaces to reduce friction and throw a reasonable amount (unlike the hard-shell Turtle wax which reduces it too much, IMO).

As always, Keep up the good work Dr. Dave.

I aim to squerve. :grin-square:

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

Dave.....excellent info. Now I know how to doctor the balls for my next one-pocket game and have a good 4 ball advantage.

If you really want to be devious, just doctor some of the balls that you can easily remember later. For example, use Turtle wax on the solids and alcohol on the stripes, and don't tell your opponent. That way, only you will know when and how much to compensate your aim on different types of shots.

And for the people out there who have trouble with draw shots, try the Turtle Wax and Silicone Spray combination. It can make even a hack look like Corey Deuel.

Have fun,
Dave

 

[Shaft]

Excellent as usual Dave.

(With 4-11 degrees of CIT, I am amazed I am making any shots at all.)

 

[mamics]

And for the people out there who have trouble with draw shots, try the Turtle Wax and Silicone Spray combination. It can make even a hack look like Corey Deuel.

How does "less cut induced throw" (via wax & silicone) help one achieve more draw ?
Is it solely because the cue ball will skid / slide better over the cloth on a long draw shot ? (ie. wax & silicone on the object ball isn't a factor for achieving more draw ?)

Please elaborate...
Turtle Wax on the object ball or cue ball or both ?
Silicone Spray on the object ball or cue ball or both ?

Will the cuetip 'grip' the cueball just as much (impart just as much backspin) if the cueball is super slick / shiny due to the wax/silicone spray ?

What about wax or silicone being transferred / deposited on to the cloth over time ? (if you use these things regularly) Anything to worry about there ???

Is it just me or would playing pool with virtually *no throw* (due to un-intended side on cueball or cut induced) via silicone sprayed balls be AWESOME !!?? [less variables / factors for C / D players like me to miss a pot]

Very interesting video's in any case - thanx.
Cheers.

 

[jtaylor996]

Couple of comments on this:

1. How is it you don't have a cueing robot by now?

2. Related to #1, are you verifying shot speeds with the video to remove outliers?

3. Where's a good place to get silicone spray?

4. Why do we need chalk, again? I'm thoroughly convinced the sport would be improved if a substitute tip with appropriate friction was produced that required no chalk at all.

It seems chalk is the root of all evil when it comes to throw.

 

[JMuck]

Well thought out and executed again.Pictures are worth a thousand words.

 

[lfigueroa]

Check out the following new online video:

NV D.16 - Pool ball cut-induced throw and cling/skid/kick experiment

It documents the results of an experiment performed to characterize the effects of different surface treatments on the amount pool balls throw. It also looks at what causes cling (AKA skid or kick). The surface treatments tested include static electricity, chalk marks, dish-washing liquid, Aramith ball cleaner, Acetone, rubbing alcohol, Silicone Spray, and sand paper.

I look forward to your comments and questions,
Dave

Interesting stuff.

So, it makes me wonder about a couple of things or three: if the Aramith polish is leaving behind a residue on the balls, what would be a better product to use? Perhaps something like Novus plastic cleaner? And, if you use Aramith or another wax-type product, are you inpregnating your tip with wax over the course of play? Lastly, while the frozen shots are interesting I would love to see an experiment where the setup is just a normal cut shot with follow. (I know, i know, ain't nobody ever happy

Lou Figueroa

 

[askalf]

Dr. Dave, very interesting experiment!

I compared your experimental data http://i.pixs.ru/storage/2/9/2/davejpg_8520739_12290292.jpg with my measurements http://dbkcues.ru/articles-2/ball-motion-properties-in-stun-and-follow-shots/?lang=en

Results correlates very well http://i7.pixs.ru/storage/3/7/9/coefficien_5543822_12290379.jpg

Sorry my english

 

[Dopc]

Interesting stuff.

So, it makes me wonder about a couple of things or three: if the Aramith polish is leaving behind a residue on the balls, what would be a better product to use? Perhaps something like Novus plastic cleaner? And, if you use Aramith or another wax-type product, are you inpregnating your tip with wax over the course of play? Lastly, while the frozen shots are interesting I would love to see an experiment where the setup is just a normal cut shot with follow. (I know, i know, ain't nobody ever happy

Lou Figueroa

Lou, great question about the cue tips. Lets not forget the cloth though. I've always wonder why a worsted cloth as it ages gets that sheen/shiny look to it. Or say the ball trails around the rack area and along the cushions where the ball compresses the cloth upon impact (that ball channel/rut that gets shiny). At first I thought it was just a result of the balls wearing & compressing the cloth only, now I wonder if it's not just the combination of the latter in addition to being impregnated with ball polish residue and other foreign contaminants (skin oils, food grease, chalk and talc etc etc). We all know and understand that almost anything applied to a pool ball will certainly be transfered to the cloth quickly.

I have never used Novus, so I have zero knowledge of what its ingredients are or the effects of its use are. Assuming Novus contains no silicone or "slick/slippery" like residue, it may be possible it's simply cleaning too much as the test results show here with rubbing alcohol or acetone alone, thus increasing ball throw substantially. I use the Aramith cleaner on my set almost daily and I can certainly tell the balls throw ever so slightly more over and after the first hour of use when fresh out of the polisher.

This kind of research is very interesting to me as well and any wisdom about the game and equipment can only be a positive. The bigger problem here is in knowing about it is only one part, the other part is predicting when these affects will alter the outcome of the shot at hand. As players we all have to learn to adjust and adapt to varying conditions and one can usually get an overall feel for the given equipment pretty quickly. Unfortunately as humans we just don't see or notice everything, you know the old saying "hindsight is 20/20", especially after a makable ball is missed. So how would one even begin to compensate for a fast RPM spinning cue ball hitting the object ball, and the corresponding contact point just happens to be where the cue tip left a nasty glob of chalk that could result in up to a +/-200% more or less throw than anticipated? (lol, the thought makes my brain hurt)

Dopc. Always wondering how that last shot was missed!

 

[dr_dave]

Excellent as usual Dave.

Thanks.

(With 4-11 degrees of CIT, I am amazed I am making any shots at all.)

Remeber, the frozen combination is simulating a perfect stun shot, where throw is large (especially with slower speeds). With many shots, CIT can be ignored (especially if the pockets are not very "tight"), especially with faster-speed draw or follow shots, where throw is much smaller. And when outside english is used, throw can be reduced further (or totally eliminated if the "gearing amount of OE is used).

Regards,
Dave

 

[dr_dave]

How does "less cut induced throw" (via wax & silicone) help one achieve more draw? Is it solely because the cue ball will skid / slide better over the cloth on a long draw shot ?

The wax and Silicone reduce friction not only between the CB and OB, but also between the CB and the table cloth. Therefore, with a draw shot, less bottom-spin wears off on the way to the OB. Therefore, more backspin is available to draw the CB back. The rolling resistance of the CB will also typically be reduced with a slicker ball, so it will tend to travel farther (for a given shot speed) after the draw takes.

(ie. wax & silicone on the object ball isn't a factor for achieving more draw ?)

Actually, when the CB hits the OB with spin, some spin transfers to the OB and is lost from the CB, but this is a small effect. The main effect making draw easier is the reduction in CB drag (but strictly speaking, a slick OB will also help a very small amount).

Will the cuetip 'grip' the cueball just as much (impart just as much backspin) if the cueball is super slick / shiny due to the wax/silicone spray ?

I have not tested this thoroughly; but in my experience, a well-chalked tip still grabs the CB well, even when it is slick and shiny.

What about wax or silicone being transferred / deposited on to the cloth over time ? (if you use these things regularly) Anything to worry about there ???

I certainly wouldn't recommend Silicone Spray in normal play. It is messy stuff and will get on everything (including your hands). Also, with almost no friction between the balls, any shot relying on throw or spin transfer would no longer be possible. Here are examples:

throw shot examples
spin transfer shot examples.

Howerver, if you want to execute some amazing draw and masse shots for an exhibition or proposition, Silicone Spray is amazing stuff.

Here's a good proposition example where "saliva throw cancellation" is critical:

NV B.91 - Frozen-throw-down-rail proposition shot, from VEPS V

Is it just me or would playing pool with virtually *no throw* (due to un-intended side on cueball or cut induced) via silicone sprayed balls be AWESOME !!?? [less variables / factors for C / D players like me to miss a pot]

If there were absolutely no throw, throw and spin transfer shots would no longer be possible, but normal shot-making would be so much easier (although, with unintentional sidespin, there would still be squirt and swerve).

Good questions,
Dave