Does anyone know the demographics related to how many active players we have in the sport these days?
Pool Demographics and active players?
- Thread starter Bob Romano
- Start date
Bob Romano said:
Eydie, I don't know the demographics, but I have done some extensive research relating to the advancement of the sport in general. As of late, I did read that the GAME of pool is played by more Americans than any other game. However, I believe the majority of those "active players" are league members, social shooters, bar bangers, and the like.
When I look at the professional player rosters of the '80s, and '90s, in my opinion there were MORE high-caliber players at the top, i.e., Mike Sigel, Allen Hopkins, Nick Varner, Earl Strickland, Kim Davenport, Jim Rempe, Buddy Hall, than today. There were not as many leagues then as there are today. The leagues have helped to advance the sport, but those in the professional arena are constantly struggling, to include players, promoters, TD's, sponsors, vendors, and the like.
Professional pool venues experience difficulty in making a profit because of the low attendance. Americans bitch and moan about the lack of TV coverage and exposure; yet, they scream bloody murder if they have to pay $25 for admittance to see live play. When I go to see the Orioles at Camden Yards in Baltimore, I ain't getting out of there without dropping 100 bucks, and that depends on the tickets I buy. I did see Cal Ripken, Jr., up front and close break Lou Gehrig's record, $1,500 per ticket. In the last 4 years I have attended professional tournaments, I have YET to see a vendor who was happy with sales at an event.
Then there is the infighting among various entities, professional pool organizations, print media, leagues, rule-making organizations, which sure doesn't help things. When everybody is chewing on the same bone, there is bound to be some competitive atrocities, i.e., changing rules willy nilly to accommodate a select few, vendors refusing to provide service because the league ain't in their inner circle, restricting venues to "member" players (the recent 43-player attendance at the first leg of the $300,000-added Hilton NAOT), just to name a few things. Although the UPA, the men's professional pool organization, is continually attempting to make strides, I think they shoot themselves in the foot on occasion.
Professional pool is a rich man's high, as far as I'm concerned. I was unable to attend every single event available last year and still incurred expenses over $40,000, from January 2004 to December 2004, to get my horse in the pit, and this only includes the continental United States. The entry fees alone were close $10,000, and the remainder is lodging, food, and travel expenses. I cannot imagine what the other pros incur in expenses traveling the globe. If a pool player is not sponsored, does not have a full-time job, it does create a hardship to be all that you can be.
The LEAGUE is where it's at currently (IMO), the average-Joe player, for lack of a better term. They are more in numbers. The American professional pool player numbers are diminishing, much like the dinosaur. Yet, I would venture to guess that the majority of LEAGUE players have full-time employment, hindering their capabilities to attend as many events as there are available throughout the year. Some folks I know save up all year to go to Las Vegas for the playoffs, and that is the extent of their pool travels. They are family folk with responsibilities, which comes first and foremost, and pool is their hobby.
The regional tours like Joss, Planet Pool 9-Ball Tour, Hampton Ridge, Pechauer, Fury, Viking, to name a few that come to mind, provide opportunities to players of ALL CALIBER. Since they occur on weekends, this allows the employed pool players to attend, the biggest bang for the buck I think.
The ring game trend which has become very popular is enjoyed by quite a few folks, but I've gotta tell you, an unsponsored player posting up a $3,000-plus entry fee is a financial hardship for most of the players I know. To attend the DCC, January 14th through 22nd, as an example, for the whole duration creates a very large expense from the get-go. Unless the prospective ring game player is sponsored or independently wealthy, they don't have a few extra dimes available. This is why the ring games at the recent U.S. Open and Big Apple never got off the ground.
Yet, the general pool-playing public enjoys the ring game phenomenon. When a Redskins player loses a game, he walks off the football field with a salary. When an unsponsored pool player gets knocked out of a ring game, he may have just shot his wad and leaves with empty pockets, but still incurs the associated expenses of attending the event.
The Skins Billiards Championship, which will be shown on ESPN today at 4:00 p.m., EST, had a $5,000 entry fee. Five of the 16 players sponsored themselves, and there was $50,000 added, making a total prize purse of $130,000 for the players to shoot at, which was quite attractive.
The topic you bring up, Eydie, is worthy of a dissertation paper. It is unbelievable that there are so many Americans who do play pool, and yet, pool as a sport is at the very bottom of the heap.
When you throw all of the ingredients in the pot, it boils down to POOL in America is a HOBBY, a leisurely pastime for the mass majority. For it to ever elevate to a SPORT status in the USA remains to be seen. Not one mention in any sports media, print or broadcast, about the Team USA winning the Mosconi Cup is very revealing. You and I'd rather be watching a pool game on ESPN than a bunch of idiots stuffing their beaks with hot dogs.
Off my soap box for now, and, of course, JMHO, FWIW!
JAM
Last edited:
JAM,
Every point you make is a home run. I think you are in a unique position to speak about the 'road' or path the aspiring professional pocket billiard player is forced to take to play/compete at the game. The time and hard work involved in reaching the 'top of the heap' in the pocket pool world is at the very least equivalent to golf but no parallel can be drawn between the rewards to be drawn for that same investment. The logical question to be asked next is,"why is that the case"?
Bob Romano asked the question "Does anyone know the demographic..." Here's an anecdotal story. This past summer we ran a youth program at the golf course for kids ages 8>12. Now if the truth could be know this is just a baby setting service, 95% percent of these kids had never hit a golf ball in their life. When I had them (the little ^%$#@!^! ) gathered together for the first time I asked them "Who is the best golfer in the world"?..........you guessed it. They all yelled and screamed TIGER WOODS!!!!!!!!! Then they all started to do their Happy Gilmore impressions on my putting green....GEEZEEEEEES....my Tuesday mornings for the next six weeks where just nightmares, but I won't go into that. The point I'm trying to make is, I would bet that I could ask that same question, pool related, the first night of any local pool league. The response would be a hushed silence just as if they had been struck dumb. What does that say about demographics? Well, Bob, I appreciate what you try to do for the game but I think the sad truth is the demographics of pool SUCKS.
There now I've had my little rant....and I thank you, JAM, for bring it to mind........
Every point you make is a home run. I think you are in a unique position to speak about the 'road' or path the aspiring professional pocket billiard player is forced to take to play/compete at the game. The time and hard work involved in reaching the 'top of the heap' in the pocket pool world is at the very least equivalent to golf but no parallel can be drawn between the rewards to be drawn for that same investment. The logical question to be asked next is,"why is that the case"?
Bob Romano asked the question "Does anyone know the demographic..." Here's an anecdotal story. This past summer we ran a youth program at the golf course for kids ages 8>12. Now if the truth could be know this is just a baby setting service, 95% percent of these kids had never hit a golf ball in their life. When I had them (the little ^%$#@!^! ) gathered together for the first time I asked them "Who is the best golfer in the world"?..........you guessed it. They all yelled and screamed TIGER WOODS!!!!!!!!! Then they all started to do their Happy Gilmore impressions on my putting green....GEEZEEEEEES....my Tuesday mornings for the next six weeks where just nightmares, but I won't go into that. The point I'm trying to make is, I would bet that I could ask that same question, pool related, the first night of any local pool league. The response would be a hushed silence just as if they had been struck dumb. What does that say about demographics? Well, Bob, I appreciate what you try to do for the game but I think the sad truth is the demographics of pool SUCKS.
There now I've had my little rant....and I thank you, JAM, for bring it to mind........
JAM said:
hey jam, when did it surpass bowling? i knew pool was in a close second to bowling as the most popular and played recreational game, but hadn't read that it had surpassed bowling yet. if it did thats great for the game, maybe by the time some of the aspiring players get near the top, there will be enough money in tournament play to support their efforts.
thanks
cheesemouse said:
In pool, there is no name-brand recognition; thus, therein likes the biggest problem.
In the year 2005, there is no Willie Mosconi, Steve Mitzerak, or Minnesota Fats. Until pool gets a personality on the tube, it will continue to remain in the doldrums!
How many of you have seen pool-related advertisements on TV? Why aren't companies using REAL POOL PLAYERS instead of actors? That speaks volumes (IMO)!
JAM
vapoolplayer said:Hey, JAM, when did it surpass bowling? I knew pool was in a close second to bowling as the most popular and played recreational game, but hadn't read that it had surpassed bowling yet. If it did, that's great for the game. Maybe by the time some of the aspiring players get near the top, there will be enough money in tournament play to support their efforts.
I've got a quote somewhere in my collection of pool papers which came from a non-pool-related research think-tank that revealed that the game of pool is the most popular game played in the United States. I'll try to find it and post the origin later because......NOW it's Post Time. ESPN, here I come!
JAM
JAM said:I've got a quote somewhere in my collection of pool papers which came from a non-pool-related research think-tank that revealed that the game of pool is the most popular game played in the United States. I'll try to find it and post the origin later because......NOW it's Post Time. ESPN, here I come!
JAM
i believe keith will be on t.v. today with the skins. i could be wrong. hopefully this will jump start some color in pool. that would do it alright, more keith on t.v. give this game some color.
JAM said:
JAM...I agree with you. However, the majority of male pros do not possess the emotional maturity or vocabulary to be able to be utilized by a national advertising agency (let alone be "allowed" by the sponsoring company). Let's face it, public perception of 'pro' pool players is sadly lacking (I know, as I spend 9 months a year traveling the country, trying to dispel this poor image)...and worse, most of them do nothing to dismiss this preconception. The women have the best chance, as advertising spokespersons. At least they can say three words without one of them being the "F" word. As someone one attends many professional events, and "knows" many of the players, you know exactly what I'm talking about!
Scott Lee
So here is why I asked the question to begin with:
I am in the process of trying to gather up major sponsorships for the Florida Disney Project coming up this August. As I have stated many times before, the billiard industry is tapped out, the billiard related business in this industry just can't give anymore. Which leaves me in a predicament where I have to go outside the industry to find funds for this event.
If I have some support, this event can be really good for the industry and the sport. I really feel to make this sport better, we must start with the kids.
So, I have to sell the sport and event to an outsider who wants answers to questions such as this. As JAM said very truthfully, this is really how the sport lies, and it shouldn't be that way.
What I have learned is this from part of a PR The BCA put out some time back:
Billiards is one of the most popular sports activities in the U.S., with over 40.7 million Americans counted among players in 2003. Of those surveyed, over nine million were considered "frequent" by having played twice a month or more in the preceding year.
Some of the report's findings include:
The number of billiard players increased by 3% over 2002
68% of frequent players are male
43% of all participants are 18-34 years of age
31% of all participants have household incomes of $75,000+
46% of all participants reside in a large metro area (2 million+ pop.)
So, with this finding, why can't we pull the sport together and pull in the BIG fish?
I am in the process of trying to gather up major sponsorships for the Florida Disney Project coming up this August. As I have stated many times before, the billiard industry is tapped out, the billiard related business in this industry just can't give anymore. Which leaves me in a predicament where I have to go outside the industry to find funds for this event.
If I have some support, this event can be really good for the industry and the sport. I really feel to make this sport better, we must start with the kids.
So, I have to sell the sport and event to an outsider who wants answers to questions such as this. As JAM said very truthfully, this is really how the sport lies, and it shouldn't be that way.
What I have learned is this from part of a PR The BCA put out some time back:
Billiards is one of the most popular sports activities in the U.S., with over 40.7 million Americans counted among players in 2003. Of those surveyed, over nine million were considered "frequent" by having played twice a month or more in the preceding year.
Some of the report's findings include:
The number of billiard players increased by 3% over 2002
68% of frequent players are male
43% of all participants are 18-34 years of age
31% of all participants have household incomes of $75,000+
46% of all participants reside in a large metro area (2 million+ pop.)
So, with this finding, why can't we pull the sport together and pull in the BIG fish?
JAM said:
well thought out.
for a long time, there has been a misleading stat that must be better defined.
the growth of pool in the "general public"(the growth sport everyone seems to point to) must be kept seperate from the fan interest/pro sport situation that pool finds itself in.
people who play leagues, people who buy the 6' table for their family den have zero interest in watching pro pool live or on tv. they couldn't name any players except "that asian woman in black and that blonde". for them, pool league is for social interaction,,,,a gathering of friends. that is why every bar has a pool table and dart board. that is why pool and dart supplies are sold in the same store. and that is why 95% of all the cues sold on ebay are budweiser cues.
the billiard powers that be find comfort in noting the numbers in the "growth of pool", but maybe they should stop fooling themselves. THAT only really helps brunswick. at present, pool cannot be addressed in in a "big sport" frame of mind. it is a minor game, and thus gets no coverage. televised hotdog eating gets airplay because it is an oddity, a curiousity, and a time filler,,,,and joe public would rather waste an hour watching people stuff their face, than watch two players walk around a nine foot table.
Last edited:
Scott Lee said:
Scott, I am saddened to read your perception that "the majority of male pros do not possess the emotional maturity or vocabulary to be able to be utilized by a national advertising agency."
I know quite a few male pro players, even college-educated competitors, who possess the maturity and represent themselves just fine, i.e., Nick Varner, Johnny Archer, Tony Robles, to name a few that come to mind. I vehemently disagree with this stereotype.
Scott Lee said:
The women have an existing professional pool organization continuing to promote the sport. The ranking system is out in plain view for all to see, and from what I can gather, there is no favoritism. It may not be a perfect fit for all, but I believe if a lady pro wants to excel, she can follow the WPBA tour and take her best shot and be treated equitably.
As far as the "F" word, I think the male pro players have enough common sense to refrain from cursing when they are competing in front of a camera.
My point, Scott, is that when you see a commercial on TV about golf, you don't see actors, you see real golf pros. In pool-related ads, it would be nice to see REAL POOL PROS as opposed to actors. If and when pool can create name-brand recognition, this may happen, but the cream of the crop in pocket billiards -- MEN AND WOMEN -- are unknown to the majority of the American TV viewing audience.
JAM
Pool visability on TV
Having read all the prior comments, one is missing. TV ads (and an occasional TV series) often use a pool table (with or without players) as a center piece in a scene or ad, often in bar locations or private home game rooms. Someone in the advertizing biz. KNOWS something that makes them use the pool table as a center piece doing these TV scenes. Why don't the professional pool player organizations pick up on those that DO care enough to use pool in their ads and solicit them for either sponsorship or some kind of involvement?
WLN
Having read all the prior comments, one is missing. TV ads (and an occasional TV series) often use a pool table (with or without players) as a center piece in a scene or ad, often in bar locations or private home game rooms. Someone in the advertizing biz. KNOWS something that makes them use the pool table as a center piece doing these TV scenes. Why don't the professional pool player organizations pick up on those that DO care enough to use pool in their ads and solicit them for either sponsorship or some kind of involvement?
WLN
JAM said:
JAM...I hope you don't mind if I jump in here...I just wanted to throw in my $0.03 here...First I agree with you 100%, however the problem that remains is the type of commercials that are available. Sure, in golf Titlist and Taylor Made all have commercials, but IMHO the widespread coverage on the non sports networks comes from advertisers/sponsors outside of the general specific sport arena; for example Nike...I see (or saw) Tiger Woods on Nike commercials and other type commercials not directly related to golf on a daily basis on network TV. The only pool related commercial I have seen on network TV is from a local Brunswick dealer...nothing from major pool sponsors...and nothing from million dollar sponsors such as Nike. First off, what would such a sponsor get form pool? How could Nike sell shoes from supporting pool? Pool players don't use specific shoes. I am just using Nike as one example because they are a large sporting sponsor, but the list goes on and on. IMHO, the pool sponsors that are out there need to advertise on network TV, not just ESPN. I guess my point is that all sports advertise to there audience...when golf is on, regardless of if it is ESPN or network TV, you see an influx of golf commercials...when pool is on ESPN you see actual pool related commercials...to get household name recognition you need to see these types of commercials during Law & Order and other prime time programming...regardless if the advertiser is Viking, the APA, or hopefully a BIGGER sponsor such as Nike. Without that exposure it doesn't matter if they have an elephant doing the commercials because as long as pool commercials are only shown during pool programming it will not make that big of a difference. The people tuning in to that programming already know the names and faces of the players..as they are fans.
landshark77 said:
BINGO!!! thats the 64 million dollar question. when someone comes up with a PROFITABLE answer to that question you will see outside sponsors bring some money to this sport. sure the attitude of a FEW players can hurt any kind of sport, but all sports have a few people who have outbursts from time to time. sometimes that helps in a way. some people watch sports just to see what kind of fight will start on the ice, who will put who into the wall on the track, if the dugout gets cleared after someone rushes the mound. everyone is screaming, we need more money, we need outside sponsorship.........well the outside sponsors are screaming whats in it for us. i'll use nike for example since it was used above, they could make a shoe for pool playing i'm sure (i know i'd buy a pair, after standing for 6 hours in practice a nice playing shoe would come in handy) but lets be real here, would enough people buy them to make it worth the effort? there are two types of people who play pool, those who will spend as little as possible and those who will buy whatever they feel will help them regardless of the price. the first of the two being the majority by far.
in my opinion one of the biggest differences in the popularity of other sports compared to the popularity of pool is this:
when you were young (i.e. early teens, high school) most of you played some kind of sport. whether it be baseball, basketball, football, tennis, track, wrestling, hell there are even chess teams in schools. but MOST people don't even play pool until they are old enough to get into a pool establishment. everyone grew up with the common sports and have an understanding of them. pool (as it is supposed to be played) is in the realm of the unknown to most people. i don't know if its even possible but we need to start putting pool into the same spotlight as other games. this is a game that can be enjoyed by everyone young and old, male and female. i know that there are youth leagues out there and programs for kids playing pool, but compared to the youth leagues of other sports it is minute at best. go ask a 13 yr old who their favorite baseball, football, or basketball player is. then go ask them who their favorite pool player is.
the point being is that people react more to games that they know and understand. this understanding started as early as some of their math skills did.
sponsors such as nike use things such as sports to market products using things that people react to.
they say "michael jordan uses such and such, so can you"
now imagine how many people would scratch their head when they said " johnny archer uses such and such, so can you."
the future of any sport starts with the knowledge and public spotlight of the game.
moral of the rant: if you want to bring this game to new levels, do your part to help promote it.
my county has a community center where they do things such as give cardio lessons, karate lessons, weight lifting, etc, etc. i am planning on asking them if they could incorporate pool in this as well. have a few days a week that offer lessons for people of different skill levels say for an hour or so, and have a day or two a week where youths would have lessons. i am willing to volunteer my time for the youth and the begginner and intermediate players. this could lead to a youth league, and possibly in the future if this became popular in surrounding counties could lead to school teams. i know it sounds far fetched but all sports started somewhere. if people all over start something like this, i predict that you would see a widespread of pool being played and understood by many many many more people. then you would see outside sponsors start using pool as they do other sports.
well i'm sure i left some things out that i meant to write, but all in all my point is there.
thanks for reading
JAM said:
JAM...The three people you mention would indeed provide the good wholesome image necessary (even if only ONE of them is college educated). The point you make is well taken. However, we have to look at the big picture, and it is not a handfull of players. There are literally 100's of top players across the country, and at least 100 who are very well known among the pool set. I still say that many of these represent the sport in a poor light through their comments and behavior. Do the VERY few who happen to make it in front of a tv camera have enough sense to act appropriately? I would certainly hope so...but we know even Earl has his moments, even on international tv. Whether you like it or not, the stereotype is there, now, as it has been for decades. It is perceived this way by not just the uneducated public, but also by corporate America. I did not invent this misconception, and I do my best to try to educate the pool-playing public that this perception does not represent the sport at large (even though that may or may not be the case).
You're correct that the women have done an admirable job of bonding together to create a cohesive unit, capable of doing great things and going places. Unfortunately the men continue to behave (collectively) just like they have for 50 yrs. They are all chiefs, and there's no indians. The common thread that I have heard over and over, is "what's in it for ME? I don't care about those other guys...what're you gonna do for me TODAY, not 5 yrs from now." This is the truth...I don't like it any more than you do, but it is the truth nonetheless...and until the players, as a group, wake up, nothing will change.
Personally, I find it sad and ridiculous that you can be among the best in the world, and not be able to make a decent legitimate living. Know who the #93 ranked player on the PGA is? Me neither, but he's a millionaire. How many of the top ranked pool players even GROSSED $100K last year, let alone netted anything close to that, after expenses & taxes? You can count them on one hand (men and women together). That is a disgrace!
I, just as you, would like to see it change and be different.
Will that happen in our lifetimes? I can only hope so...
Scott Lee
Scott Lee said:
Let me be the first to compliment you on your very well-written and articulate post, Scott. We both have a common desire and the exact same hope for a better future. I've gotta say, though, with all due respect, I'm sure glad you aren't the current ambassador for the sport.
JAM
Scott Lee said:
I looked up something which makes me feel sad... very sad !
Pool 2004 money list starts like this (AzB money list):
1. Efren Reyes $124,150.00
2. Alex Pagulayan $118,183.00
3. Allison Fisher $96,300.00
etc.
Compared to golf, pga tour money list, starts:
1 Vijay Singh $10,905,166
2 Ernie Els $5,787,225
3 Phil Mickelson $5,784,823
etc.
Vijay Singh earned some 80 times more money than Efren !
BUT ! Guess how many golf players on that money list earned more than Efren's just over $124k ?
208 players !!!!
...
207 Dan Olsen $135,731
208 Guy Boros $130,783
209 David Edwards $123,681
...
Top 77 golf players earned more than $1mil and top 141 earned more than $500k !
Source:
http://www.pgatour.com/stats/leaders/r/2004/109
Sigh...
landshark77 said:
Heck no, Landshark77. Jump on in; the water's fine!
landshark77 said:
I agree 100 percent. Nike came out with skateboarding shoes. It would seem like the little elves who design these shoes could come up with an ergonomically correct pool shoe! Nike is a big sports sponsor and hasn't shown one interest in pool to date.
BTW, I love that Olhausen Table TV commercial with Johnny Archer blowing the smoke off the end of his cue stick. What a SHAME, though, his name was not mentioned, i.e., NAME-BRAND RECOGNITION.
With the exception of the upcoming Sports Illustrated article about Danny "Kid Delicious" Basavich, the mainstream sports print media has for the most part just plain ignored pocket billiards.
There are divisions between various entities within the pool industry which create stop signs. Yet, each one would receive benefit if they could work together collectively with one common theme, to advance the "sport."
Pool may be on the brink of better things down the road. Even though I have some thoughts about some of the downsides which are very problematic for me and mine at times, I do maintain a very strong forward-looking vision. I think I can see a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel, and it sure does look good to me!
JAM
Gremlin said:
That was a very interesting post about Mr. Tu, Gremlin. Seems like the opposing factions managed overcome their differences, and Mr. Tu was instrumental in effecting that change.
The original inquiry of the thread about demographics has seemed to have stirred up a lot of varying thoughts with twists and turns, which provides for a good colloquy (IMO), to include the wonderful Mr. Tu.
Thanks for sharing the Mr. Tu story. It was magnificant.
JAM
Scott Lee said:
Sorry Gremlin, but I'm going to continue the discussion...I guess it is just the way the tread goes.
Scott I'm going to pick up on what you said above. I want to put a disclaimer here that I am NOT the most tactful person and I do stupid things all the time in front of the wrong people (or at least it seems that away, LOL) People who do not know me may form an opinion of me that is false...I am not meant to be a spokesperson for anything. With that said why should Earl be anyone but himself, regardless of how people view it? Is it because he is a recognized figure in the sport? Should the future of pool really be based upon the personal actions of the players? Pool is not the only sport that has these kinds of people. Kobe Bryant, Pete Rose, Dennis Rodman, and Mike Tyson are a few names in mainstream sports that I would say represent their respective sports in a bad light, BUT Basketball, Baseball, and Boxing are not affected. Wasn't there also some drama a few years ago with several Football Pros?
I have a hard time believing that Corporate America is not interested in pool because of the actions/ behaviors of some of the players. It has to be something more. What exactly can pool do for DuPont, Nike, Nabisco, General Mills, Mars/ M&M's, Rebook, and etc...? IMHO, Pool can have the best behaved professionals in the world but until you can convince Hershey that they will sell more Kisses by investing in Pool they are not going too. That is the missing link. Plus what sells besides sex? Drama.