Pool halls that discourage play

[pete lafond]

If you were where I live you'd be out of business in 3 months.

If you were in other areas you'd be right on.

Better listen to your businessman side rather than your pool player side.

Where do you live Teacherman and what pool hall do you play in? How about a game? I'm a B maybe a C player. I'll play heads-up 9 ball. Show me your 'A' game. I'd love to get beat by such a terrific 'A', maybe 'A+' player, or maybe 'Super plus A'. We can even post results right here. If you beat me badly, I'll keep my mouth shut from now on and recommend that everyone quadruple shim pockets and even promote that they do the lousiest job. I'll then just say that I need to be a better B player and one day I might finally pocket one ball. What do you think?

 

[Jedi V Man]

If the "B" players ever want to step up in the "A" player status they NEED to be playing on a more challenging table. They need to be shooting on a table with tight pockets to learn to aim Center Cut instead of knowing they have a huge margin of error to allow for.

If you are going to "Practice", that means to try to improve your game. Big ass bucket pockets do not help make you a better shot.

Practicing would be trying to improve your accuracy, stroke, stance and nerves. All which require trying your hardest to get better at what you're curently doing, and also learning to NOT do a few things you're already doing now.

Why own a $1000.00 or more cue if you don't want to be a better player?

That's like them Hackers on the golf course that can't shoot a lick, but have a $800.00 Biggest Big Bertha Driver. They are trying to "Buy" a game or look like they have some game....

They would be better off spending that money on the range and course "PRacticing" and taking lessons...

I love all the kids around here with high dollar cues that could make more than a 5 ball run and are always beggin for some weight

 

[pete lafond]

If the "B" players ever want to step up in the "A" player status they NEED to be playing on a more challenging table. They need to be shooting on a table with tight pockets to learn to aim Center Cut instead of knowing they have a huge margin of error to allow for.

If you are going to "Practice", that means to try to improve your game. Big ass bucket pockets do not help make you a better shot.

Practicing would be trying to improve your accuracy, stroke, stance and nerves. All which require trying your hardest to get better at what you're curently doing, and also learning to NOT do a few things you're already doing now.

Why own a $1000.00 or more cue if you don't want to be a better player?

That's like them Hackers on the golf course that can't shoot a lick, but have a $800.00 Biggest Big Bertha Driver. They are trying to "Buy" a game or look like they have some game....

They would be better off spending that money on the range and course "PRacticing" and taking lessons...

I love all the kids around here with high dollar cues that could make more than a 5 ball run and are always beggin for some weight

Who says every B or C player wants to be an A player? I do it for fun. I play with many B and C players and have a good time. I don't play in tournaments; I just play for fun and socialize. Get a life. So every 'A' player has a pipe dream as a wanna-be pro. This is not a fair statement either.

 

[Teacherman]

Where do you live Teacherman and what pool hall do you play in? How about a game? I'm a B maybe a C player. I'll play heads-up 9 ball. Show me your 'A' game. I'd love to get beat by such a terrific 'A', maybe 'A+' player, or maybe 'Super plus A'. We can even post results right here. If you beat me badly, I'll keep my mouth shut from now on and recommend that everyone quadruple shim pockets and even promote that they do the lousiest job. I'll then just say that I need to be a better B player and one day I might finally pocket one ball. What do you think?

Why is my playing ability important in this conversation?

This is about a pool room and whether it hurts business because it's tables are shimmed.

I guess you're saying I won that argument and are now moving to an area you could.......might.......win at.

 

[Jack Flanagan]

You who carry cues into the room must realize that the best customers are the ones that don't.
That may sound like a slap. But, you need to face the facts.
By best customers, I mean the ones that spend the most money.
After all, this isn't a social club.......it's a business.

we are of like-mind,,,the people who had my pool room previously were in business for only 3-1/2 months...they constantly tried to bring some local, "big talent" to show the little people how a money player is so good,,,these 'big timers' took up table time, usually for free and drove the paying customers away with their arrogance.

we inherited crappy house cues with slip-on tips that few people would play with,,, soon as I could afford a lathe, I replaced tenons, ferrules and put good tips on the sticks....now, only about 10% of the players have their own sticks & most of them only show up for tournaments...but, the new and 'repaired' house cues get a work-out every day by loyal customers who know my sticks are straight and have good tips,,,one of the 'tournament-only' players arrived without his personal cue and had to use a house cue & won the tourney,,,(it ain't the stick, it's the person pushing it)....no moral to this story but we'll soon be in business 2 years !

 

[pete lafond]

Why is my playing ability important in this conversation?

This is about a pool room and whether it hurts business because it's tables are shimmed.

I guess you're saying I won that argument and are now moving to an area you could.......might.......win at.

No, you talk down B players, so you must be an 'A' or better unless you enjoy self affliction or misrepresent yourself through forum content. How about the info? City? Pool hall? I want to give you a chance to be right.

 

[pete lafond]

we are of like-mind,,,the people who had my pool room previously were in business for only 3-1/2 months...they constantly tried to bring some local, "big talent" to show the little people how a money player is so good,,,these 'big timers' took up table time, usually for free and drove the paying customers away with their arrogance.

we inherited crappy house cues with slip-on tips that few people would play with,,, soon as I could afford a lathe, I replaced tenons, ferrules and put good tips on the sticks....now, only about 10% of the players have their own sticks & most of them only show up for tournaments...but, the new and 'repaired' house cues get a work-out every day by loyal customers who know my sticks are straight and have good tips,,,one of the 'tournament-only' players arrived without his personal cue and had to use a house cue & won the tourney,,,(it ain't the stick, it's the person pushing it)....no moral to this story but we'll soon be in business 2 years !

Great job Jack. Sounds like the place needed some cleaning up. Whether or not people own their own cues doesn't matter. I've never meet anyone who owns a nice cue expects to play better because of the price of the cue. It has to do with the consistancy of playing with the same equipment. After all a $400 Schon plays no different than a $1700 Schon. A good stick on the other hand is a good thing. Again, Great job. As a Pool hall patron it is aways nice to know customers are welcome.

 

[cuejoey]

If you were where I live you'd be out of business in 3 months.

If you were in other areas you'd be right on.

Better listen to your businessman side rather than your pool player side.

Teacherman a person/business man should listen to both sides...the players have to realize alot of hall owners do not have deep pockets and cannot get the best of things everyone wants..But the owners must realize to listen to their customers ..just because someone has played pool for 30 plus years does not mean he can be an owner and please everyone with his ideas.........you said the B's whine at you..i would call that a customer suggesting things myself..maybe somethings are not right at your place .the next time your mechanic comes in for a recloth have him shim a table or two for your B's the way they would like......keep an open mind ........have a nice day and keep smilin Teacherman.

 

[sixpack]

Me?......Upset?.......Just honest.

You who carry cues into the room must realize that the best customers are the ones that don't.

That may sound like a slap. But, you need to face the facts.

By best customers, I mean the ones that spend the most money.

After all, this isn't a social club.......it's a business.

Teacherman,

You started on this thread being in favor of triple-shimmed pockets and that only B players complained about it. Then you said that A players don't bring you money and so you don't care about them...
So...the only group left is the recreational players...So...the reason you triple-shim the pockets is for the recreational players? But wait, you also said that they don't care if the tables are shimmed or not...so why mess with it at all? I assume it's not free to have this done.

Cheers,
Regas

 

[cardiac kid]

Hi teacherman,

You have an interesting idea about who actually keeps a pool room open. May I expand on it. During the winter, young people who frequent our room play a couple of hours or so when there. They buy soda, snacks and play the "jukebox". All needed income for the room. During the summer, those young folks disappear to other interests. Us regulars then carry the load. Who do you cater to? All of us. As I've posted before, our room has about thirty tables. Of those, only six are shimmed. Those six are enclosed in a quieter, secluded area. Normally, occasional players are not allowed to play in the "VIP" room. When the main room is full, everyone is allowed in. Never heard the young folks complain about anything except "can't you turn the music up".

From the tone and tenor of some of the posts here, I guess it is not within the rights of a player/person to express displeasure with a room, atmosphere, tables or other people. To me, this is a place to NON-violently express displeasure or God forbid, pleasure with the game we all seem to love.

 

[Teacherman]

No, you talk down B players, so you must be an 'A' or better unless you enjoy self affliction or misrepresent yourself through forum content. How about the info? City? Pool hall? I want to give you a chance to be right.

Point out where I talked down a B players game. I've said the same things about A players as I've said about B players.

Their ability or willingness to spend is what I don't like. I'm in business. I want paying customers.

If I wanted to argue who played the best I'd go to the empty rooms supported by poker machines. Plenty of open tables. Usually some good players hanging around. In fact, I frequented those places a while back.

I've graduated from pool groupie to businessman........although I still enjoy watching a good match between good players.

 

[Teacherman]

Teacherman,

You started on this thread being in favor of triple-shimmed pockets and that only B players complained about it. Then you said that A players don't bring you money and so you don't care about them...
So...the only group left is the recreational players...So...the reason you triple-shim the pockets is for the recreational players? But wait, you also said that they don't care if the tables are shimmed or not...so why mess with it at all? I assume it's not free to have this done.

Cheers,
Regas

You've almost figured out the point sixpack. Have another beer.

The point is, people are complaining about shimmed pockets and how they cost a room owner business. It is simply not supported with fact.

For every B player (complainer) they probably pick up an A player. That's a wash. What's left is the general public. They miss 7 out of 10 times they shoot (or more). They couldn't tell you if the pockets are shimmed or not.
If they miss 7 out of 10 shots on unshimmed tables and 8 out of 10 shots on a shimmed table, do you really think they know the difference?

Point is they miss so much they can't tell the difference.

Beyond that, those people go to their pool room for reasons other than the equipment they play on.....atmosphere, friends, employees, prices, music...to name a few.

I own two rooms. Don't believe I have a shimmed pocket in either room, although I have had them. If I had a serious A player (or more) who could justify me shimming the pockets by their frequency I'd do it.

But, get the point and stay on point please. Shimmed pockets do not cost a room owner business.

The other part of the question, poor table maintenance, or a poor recover job might. But if done properly.......no way.

 

[Teacherman]

... Who do you cater to?...

No one.

I do my best to keep the equipment nice, clean, level, recovered etc. I do my best to keep the beer cold, the food good, and the bathrooms clean.

Whoever likes that kind of place is welcome. I could care less if you bring a stick with you or use one of mine.

And your assumption about pool players supporting a room in the summer more so than the general public isn't true. Both the general public and the pool players enjoy the summer weather and activities. It's all darkness related. When it's finally dark they come in. Difference between summer and winter is not who plays and who doesn't. It's the difference of darkness. Gets dark at 5:00p in the winter (allows for 8 hours of business..or so). Summer it gets dark at 9:00p (allows for 4 hours of business..or so).

 

[Jack Flanagan]

hey, I do things to my tables that people might take issue with, also,,,I only have bar boxes, but I use 4 different kinds of cloth and three different kinds of rails,,,,I have a bar box that the faint-hearted won't attempt to play on,,,it has championship tour edition cloth and brunswick super-speed cushions,,,little more than a moderate stroke will rebound 5-1/2 times, end-to-end,,,my buddies like the table because it's so quick, & they put the $ out to play,,'slammers & bangers', stay away.....

 

[Celtic]

The analogy would be to a golf course that forces you to hit every tee shot over a water hazard one hundred yards in length. Not much problem for most golfers, and any halfway decent player can carry a hundred yards of water with great consistency. The problem is that the average Sunday hacker will find the conditions frustrating. ....<snip>.... The casual pool player will feel similar frustration on a tight pool table, and may well opt to go elsewhere.

That is not quite a correct analogy. The pool player who misses shot after shot due to the tight table is not loosing a $2 ball each and every time be flubs a shot, the golfer is. The pool player who misses may get lucky on occasion with a safety or at least his opponent is missing as well, whoever wins the game gets the W and that is what matters in the end because misses are not counted. On the other hand the golfer is not just playing to win, he is also playing against his handicap and has score expectations. He may beat his friend but if he does so with 140 strokes on a par 72 course he is not going to be happy because he knows he still got owned by the course and lost $32 in balls. They are two very different situations, golf is more of a individual game then pool. Pool is all about winning while golf is alot more about your personal performance.

 

[LastTwo]

The difficulty in pool is one reason why the popularity diminishes as kids grow older.

Sure, but that difficulty has nothing to do with the size of the pockets. Most people who give up the game do it because their mechanics fail them and they don't know how to fix it. Good players can pick a side of the pocket to make a ball in, bad players miss the pockets by two diamonds.

My point is, when your mechanics are working right for you, when you're lining up correctly, and you're putting a perfect hit on the cueball, you can fire balls in just like Parica does on the Hard Times 6x12 with pockets so tight they barely fit a snooker ball. Parica fires balls in on those tables like he's playing 9 ball.

I think a big problem that so many people have when it comes to pool, is they obsess over what happens after the shot, instead of focusing on what they are doing when they execute the shot. People give advice to play on huge pockets to build 'confidence', but in reality it means squat because once those conditions change, confidence or no confidence, you're not going to have what it takes to run out on tougher equipment.

If you're going to gripe about tight pockets, why not try shifting your focus from the results that you repeatedly keep getting- which is rattling balls, and try to figure out what in your physical or mental fundamentals is causing you to do that.

I swear, people treat pool like it's crack....when the balls don't fall they start getting nutty and blaming the equipment, and ignore the fact that the problem lies within themselves.

 

[pete lafond]

No one.

The only gripe I have is how you perceive players (otherwise stated; YOUR CUSTOMERS).
Frankly speaking it doesn't take a whole lot of capital to open the average pool hall. I understand that some kids earning potential right out of college is much greater than that of a pool hall owner. Surprisingly enough it tends to draw some owners of the sort that are crude in nature and have limited businesses sense.

"Work for yourself, start a pool hall, cheap. No personality needed. " (I've been to fabulous halls and this is not meant for those. That is those that respect their patrons.) Your perception of B players thrown back at you.

Pool halls are one of those businesses that will in time be taken over by a larger national business that knows how to do it. (Hopefully not.) In business you need customers and employees. Without them you have nothing. You need to learn this Teacherman. As an owner, your job is to work and serve both groups. This means through listening and respect. Those that do not respect your business, you bar. You smile to customers, you thank them by your words and actions. And if you really believe in your business and are proud of it, you would then promote it by stating the Name of your business following every post you make in forums like this one. You would post positive and encouraging messages and hope that forum members visiting your city would walk in and say hi, maybe play too. Yes they are not your income, but this is called marketing. The more good stuff people have to say about you in these forums, the more readers in your city will talk about it to others. And people will want to patron your business by word of mouth. You don't need a fancy pool hall to have this forum members to promote you. This is a great group that wants to build pool and make it successful.

Yes this has gotten away from the shim thing to some degree. Or has it? Shim some of your tables and make some customers happy, but you better do a good job. As you stated it costs nothing more to shim, I say you'd better check the quality then or is this how you care about your customer. Maybe this whole shim thing should be replaced with your level of customer respect for all customers. Don't forget, like with every business, that business has to be run as if another business might open next door and you have to compete to be better and get most of the business. If you don't do this now then when that other business does open up it will be to late for you. Also don't forget that some of your customers are kids just having a good time and they pay attention to the better players, C, B and A types. (Called pull through business.) The messages they hear can affect whether they are interested in carrying this game further and how they talk about you and your business to others.

 

[Teacherman]

What do you mean it's me? I don't miss. The table rolls off.....the music is too loud.....the rails are dead.....the pockets are too tight.

 

[pete lafond]

Sure, but that difficulty has nothing to do with the size of the pockets. Most people who give up the game do it because their mechanics fail them and they don't know how to fix it. Good players can pick a side of the pocket to make a ball in, bad players miss the pockets by two diamonds.
.

Good point, but you missed the main one. I enjoy tight pockets very much. I love playing on Diamond tables. I am talking about quality and consistency. My point is leave original equipment alone. Leave it as it has been manufactured. If you want to change the tables, change one or two. A lot of time has been spent by the manufacturer to engineer the quality and consistency of play and to have a non-engineer cob them up is just plain stupidity. Let "Joe" replace the cloth or replace the rails. Don't let "Joe" screw your tables up so they now play inconsistently. "Joe" is not capable enough. Remember, you control "Joe". Find another "Joe" if you are not satisfied. Don't except anything less than perfect, after all it's your business.

 

[Teacherman]

You advising me on business is like me telling Efren how to shoot.

You have a lot of theory. I have a lot of experience.

I'm able to recognize the riff raff quicker than you. I cut the problem off at the pass.

No one can satisfy every customer. No need to try.

I keep the room clean, equipment in good shape, the beer cold and the food good.

And, I keep the riff raff out.

The good people like that.

And, I bet if we lived in the same area, you'd play at my place.............unless you were riff raff.