Teacherman said:
Most business owners carry their business with pride. They brag about it. Little things like posting the business name after each forum discussion they post. You do not. Are you the "rif raf" you are trying to get rid of?
Pool halls that discourage play
- Thread starter pete lafond
- Start date
Most business owners carry their business with pride. They brag about it. Little things like posting the business name after each forum discussion they post. You do not. Are you the "rif raf" you are trying to get rid of?
Teacherman said:
Teacherman,
I would guess whoever has the opportunity to play in your room must be a happy camper. All we players ask for is what you are already providing. I made the mistake of asking our room manager four years ago for one table with challenging conditions.
Regarding hours of business. I beg to differ. Our years of experience shows that the take is down each summer due to lack of play period. Looking around the room during the period from June through October shows only the "regulars" coming in on a regular basis. The general public is busy doing things other than pool at any hour. Rain changes the attendence as does temprature and humidity. You do not list your location. If we were located in the Southeast, Southwest or the West, I would agree with your assessment. Here in the snowy, cold Northeast, things don't quite work out like that.
I spent about ten of my thirty seven years in the retail electronics business running audio stores here in Rochester. We were the first electronics retailer in Rochester to go "computerized". I wanted to know from where my customers were visiting, what they bought and what time of day. When you guess, you guess wrong.
Teacherman said:
Many years ago, a car salesman friend related this simple story to me. A customer comes in wearing overalls. He smelled of the farm fields during early spring. Each of the older sales people walked away from him. The young, inexperienced guy went over, said hello and introduced himself. An hour later, the guy left after buying five pickup trucks, cash! If you judge your customer base by sight, you loose.
A retailer I called on as a rep had an "all sales final" sign over his counter. His store was directly across from a college. People bought "stereos" on Friday and returned them Monday. That was his way of dealing with the problem. I suggested "Store credit for returns only". It accomplished the same goal. More customer friendly. At one time there was a sign at the pool room's front door. It said "If you ain't playing, you ain't staying. So get out!". The only problem with that is many of the kids that came in, brought friends that just watched. The friends still drank, ate and smoked. When the sign came down, the manager just began charging the entire group whether they played or not. Really good for business. Some of them stopped coming in too.
You are correct about me and other players wanting to play in your room. It sounds like a nice place. The biggest change in our room came when the guy at the front counter said thank you to a customer for playing. Seems small. It meant everything to the people frequenting our room.
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cardiac kid said:
Lack of play? How does that contradict what I said. Of course there is lack of play. You can't play as much in 4 hours as you can in 8.
Regulars? Of course the regulars are there. That's why they're called regulars. Your previous post was about pool players supporting you in the summer. Now its about regulars. Which is it? Because it's two different groups in my opinion.
cardiac kid said:
Is this called bait and switch? Some call it a red herring. Change the subject?
Can you please stay on one point. I feel like I'm running out and someone keeps putting another ball on the table.
Where did I say I prejudge my customers based on sight? Do I judge them? Absolutely....by sight......no. Don't have to use sight. Because the ones that need the judgement are awfully good at letting you know they need it.
BTW, an interesting point can be made about the different kinds of pool rooms. Billiard rooms, bowling alleys with tables, pool halls, game rooms, arcades. Each is really in a different business.
Much of our disagreement exists because I'm talking about one type of room and you're talking about another.
Teacherman said:
Tables sitting idle for four hours brings in the same amount of income as tables sitting idle for eight. None.
Of course the regulars are there? The reason they are regulars is they are pool players who frequent the establishment regularly. They are two distinct groups. One comes in when its convenient for them and to have fun. The other comes in to socialize, meet friends and play pool and sometimes have fun, regularly. Then again, the only difference is the frequency they visit!
Teacherman said:
My dearest Teacherman. What you call "regulars" are your B and C players who bitch and complain. This is were you build consistent business you can count on. I understand that on Fridays and Saturdays, the kids dominate the place. I suggest before you go any further with your nagging, you look at the annual income from the "Regulars" If you can live without it, then fine. Most places realize that this group at least pays for the heating in the place and maybe a small part of the rent. Just like small convenience stores that sell small gadget items at the counter. They may not sell a lot, but add this to the other sales and it really helps.
cardiac kid said:
Nice try.
I have many more non pool player regulars than pool player regulars. Regulars are regular.
Regulars support you in the summer, whether they are players or not.
Here is the fundamental misunderstanding most pool players have.
And, I will define pool players as hobbyists. People who play the game because they really enjoy the game and want to get better. As compared to the Friday/Saturday night play for an hour before or after we go somewhere else crowd.
The misunderstanding is the belief that the hobbyists are the backbone of the pool business. That couldn't be farther from the truth.
The general public is the backbone. IF they come out in large numbers, THEN the hobbyist has a place to play.
IF the pool players come out in large numbers, (which is a significantly smaller number than the general public) I have no business without the general public.
Once players understand that, then maybe some ground can be covered.
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Teacherman said:
Very valid point. I'm in total agreement with your last comments.
As far as a "red herring", the original point of the first post has suffered from too many of those. Pete LaFond had a complaint. He chose to air it on this forum. Perhaps he (and I) will regret voicing our opinions. Way too many people here with axes to grind. If you choose to, send me a PM. I'd like to tap your knowlege base to help our room owner navigate the mine field.
I'm know I'm coming in at the tail end of this thread, but I have to agree with some of the points Teacherman has made. First and foremost, in my experience, most poolplayers are cheap people (see SI thread for further proof). Pool rooms don't make tons of money off the regular players who spend money only on table time and free coffee - they make money off the drinkers (at least, around here, they do). I managed a room for a while, and I found some of the things Teacherman has said to be very true - summer business is dictated by the weather, and so-called "B" players are the biggest complainers. As much as it pisses some players off, room owners HAVE to cater to the bangers, league players, and casual players since they are the ones who drive profit. Simple math and statistics prove this to be true. Although I frequent my homeroom often (I guess I'd have to classify myself as cheap, since I don't drink alcohol), a Saturday night couple will spend more on drinks, pool, food, and the jukebox than I will spend in an entire week. Those are the customers room owners need in order to survive. I don't think an owner should just ignore the complaints of so-called "B" players, but those complaints are often going to be outweighed by the almighty equalizer - MONEY.
Here's a fer-instance: my homeroom owner is switching back from Simonis 760 to 860. Most of the "players" in the room, myself included, love the 760 for its speed, and we recommended it to him to give it a try. However, the 760 is wearing out faster than the 860 did, which means the owner is going to have to spend money to have the tables covered more often. Rather than do that, he's going to switch back to the 860. We, the "players," are going to bitch and moan (I won't, since I understand the decision) about having to go back to the 860, while the owner is simply making a sound financial decision. He *tried* to cater to the players, but it just doesn't make any sense to spend extra money but not make any extra money. Bangers don't care about the cloth (since they call it felt no matter what it is anyway), and the cost is more than the owner is willing to spend, so I can't blame him. At least it'll still be 860, could be worse...
And, to get back on topic, ONE table at my homeroom has been shimmed (out of 16 GCs), and it is by far the most popular table for rent. People find out that it's tougher, and they all want to give it a shot. Sometimes that's upsetting, since it was shimmed for me.... But I digress. I don't think it really matters one way or the other if the tables are tight. I wouldn't want to play on 3.5" pockets all the time, but if the tables are shimmed a half inch or so, I don't think anybody but good players would even notice. Bangers simply don't care - they're not educated enough about the game to know what they're looking at. For a banger, ALL tables are tough, shimmed or not.
-djb
Here's a fer-instance: my homeroom owner is switching back from Simonis 760 to 860. Most of the "players" in the room, myself included, love the 760 for its speed, and we recommended it to him to give it a try. However, the 760 is wearing out faster than the 860 did, which means the owner is going to have to spend money to have the tables covered more often. Rather than do that, he's going to switch back to the 860. We, the "players," are going to bitch and moan (I won't, since I understand the decision) about having to go back to the 860, while the owner is simply making a sound financial decision. He *tried* to cater to the players, but it just doesn't make any sense to spend extra money but not make any extra money. Bangers don't care about the cloth (since they call it felt no matter what it is anyway), and the cost is more than the owner is willing to spend, so I can't blame him. At least it'll still be 860, could be worse...
And, to get back on topic, ONE table at my homeroom has been shimmed (out of 16 GCs), and it is by far the most popular table for rent. People find out that it's tougher, and they all want to give it a shot. Sometimes that's upsetting, since it was shimmed for me.... But I digress. I don't think it really matters one way or the other if the tables are tight. I wouldn't want to play on 3.5" pockets all the time, but if the tables are shimmed a half inch or so, I don't think anybody but good players would even notice. Bangers simply don't care - they're not educated enough about the game to know what they're looking at. For a banger, ALL tables are tough, shimmed or not.
-djb
Well Teacherman i will tell you i was one of the Very loyal regulars at my pool hall..you state regulars are regulars ..they are until they quit being regular !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that's right .....i quite playing at my local hall why ? because i i got fed up with the way the owner treated alot of his customers..the owner had a carefree attitude like you..thinking that everybody must play pool at his hall...i was always the silent one watching him tell a person that he wants $260.00 for balls that sell for $150.00 on the internet...no discount on cues none...go to the internet and buy...people brought up suggestions to him and he rebuffed them like you do...i am retired and i spent 6 days a week at the hall...buying the daily 11am to 6pm special at $9.00 then staying over most nights at $6.00 per hour.......also pop candy and cue supplies i purchased there all because i wanted to be a loyal customer to the local pool hall owner..(average per month i spent $500.00 not including cues)..also in 2004 i purchased 3 cues for a total of about $2,700.00 and remember this was without him giving anyone ANY discount at all !!!!!!!!!!!!! well this loyal local regular has seen the light......i went home one day and remodeled an addition to my home and bought a new pool table..the money i will save in not going to the pool hall in one year will pay for the table.....other regulars have since left along with very experienced and valued employees....i have since heard that he is complaining that his business has dropped off dramatically in the past year(DUH) and is very close to closing....one of the xregulars now drives 25 miles to another hall to avoid this owners BS..so Teacherman this appers to be your demise all brought on by YOUR Attitude towards customers............Teacherman said:
joey
I'm discussing the pool business on the internet. I have some experience at it. I'm giving others insight into what makes the pool room go and who is the main customer. Maybe it will help some players understand where they stand and why.
Assuming I use a similar attitude on my customers constantly is a leap. I can speak with passion and conviction and attitude on the internet without harm. Only those that deserve it get it in person.
I've made it quite clear who I do business with and who I don't. That is my right. As long as there are enough in the category I choose to do business with I'll be open.
BTW, at my place it's only $4 for pool time 11:00a to 6:00p.
And, if you think you've outsmarted the pool room by buying a pool table think again. That may work for someone of your age. But, what the pool room has that your rathskellar doesn't is people.
Most home pool tables are the largest and strongest laundry tables in the country.
Maybe if you take the information I've given, store it in your knowledge base and recall it when in a pool room observing the owner at work, maybe you'll have a better understanding of what he does and why.
I can assure you that nice equipment, clean room, cold beer and good food, will get me many more customers than the red circle cue ball, simonis cloth and shims.
Remember, without the general public there would be no place for pool players to play.
I'm discussing the pool business on the internet. I have some experience at it. I'm giving others insight into what makes the pool room go and who is the main customer. Maybe it will help some players understand where they stand and why.
Assuming I use a similar attitude on my customers constantly is a leap. I can speak with passion and conviction and attitude on the internet without harm. Only those that deserve it get it in person.
I've made it quite clear who I do business with and who I don't. That is my right. As long as there are enough in the category I choose to do business with I'll be open.
BTW, at my place it's only $4 for pool time 11:00a to 6:00p.
And, if you think you've outsmarted the pool room by buying a pool table think again. That may work for someone of your age. But, what the pool room has that your rathskellar doesn't is people.
Most home pool tables are the largest and strongest laundry tables in the country.
Maybe if you take the information I've given, store it in your knowledge base and recall it when in a pool room observing the owner at work, maybe you'll have a better understanding of what he does and why.
I can assure you that nice equipment, clean room, cold beer and good food, will get me many more customers than the red circle cue ball, simonis cloth and shims.
Remember, without the general public there would be no place for pool players to play.
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I can recommend a good stylist...........with a family discount.
Teacherman
Thanks for the beer! For the record, my nickname has nothing to do with beer.
I understand your points, but here is the point I was trying to make:
If
1) A players don't spend money.
And
2) B players do spend some money but whine a lot. And they can't support the business by themselves.
And
3) C players don't care if the table is shimmed or not.
So if the tables are shimmed:
1) You'll piss off 'B' players, who spend SOME money. SOME will leave.
2) You'll make 'A' players happy, but they don't spend any money and antagonize other people. So that is a negative.
3) General Public doesn't care and will still spend same money.
So the only reasonable conclusion is that IF you shim the pockets, you WILL LOSE the money from the 'B' players that leave and you will not pick it up anywhere else SO IT DOES cost money to have all the tables shimmed poorly.
Cheers,
Regas
Thanks for the beer! For the record, my nickname has nothing to do with beer.
I understand your points, but here is the point I was trying to make:
If
1) A players don't spend money.
And
2) B players do spend some money but whine a lot. And they can't support the business by themselves.
And
3) C players don't care if the table is shimmed or not.
So if the tables are shimmed:
1) You'll piss off 'B' players, who spend SOME money. SOME will leave.
2) You'll make 'A' players happy, but they don't spend any money and antagonize other people. So that is a negative.
3) General Public doesn't care and will still spend same money.
So the only reasonable conclusion is that IF you shim the pockets, you WILL LOSE the money from the 'B' players that leave and you will not pick it up anywhere else SO IT DOES cost money to have all the tables shimmed poorly.
Cheers,
Regas
Flawed premise.
I see little difference in what A and B players spend.
And any such difference is worth less whining and not having to provide cry towels.
I see little difference in what A and B players spend.
And any such difference is worth less whining and not having to provide cry towels.
Teacherman said:
LOL -
I have worked in several rooms and been a customer in several and I agree that high maintenance customers suck, but go to a place like the Billiard Palace in Albuquerque, New Mexico or Shooter's in Wichita, KS on a weeknight and they are raking in money hand over fist because they cater to B&C players. I bet the Billiard Palace on Wednesday night takes in more money from 'B' Players than any pool hall I've been to here makes on Friday and Saturday combined.
I don't know where your rooms are, but I agree that different areas require different types of atmospheres to make money and bring people in. One of the things I really don't like about the area I'm in now is that I haven't found any really good rooms with a lot of activity. And I don't just mean gambling, I mean leagues, tournaments etc... At Shooter's in Wichita, if they have 16 people in the place they'll have a $50 added tournament. Any night and any time. I've seen tournaments start at midnight on a Monday night. That type of atmosphere brings in tons of players all the time.
Of course, neither of those places have a smoking ban
Cheers,
Regas
Teacherman said:
There you go again. Where players stand? You are something. In all your great wisdom - what you think is that you control your customers. Maybe those, like Joey, that intend to buy a table at home should consider opening a small room instead. Screw profit, make it not-for-profit as there isn't a bunch of money in pool halls anyway. Then B and C players can go there to play, order their equipment over the internet and hold mini-tournaments if they wish. Charge maybe $35 per month for unlimited play. Kinda like a private golf link. This way these players do not need to deal with "Riff Raff" owners like yourself that do not carry pride in thier business by not mentioning their business name and hiding behind a forum name when giving opinions. Where is your credibility? When I get onto forums that relate to my business, I always mention a slogan and the name of my company.
lafond
I don't control my customers. I control my business. I do business with who I want to.
Everyone starts with a clean slate. It's amazing how fast some people fall out of favor.
And all they have to do is enter, play, and check out.
That isn't good enough for most of them. They need special attention. They have special needs.
Take your special needs down the road. I've created a market for you lafond. Open up. Service these leftovers. See how long you last.
I don't control my customers. I control my business. I do business with who I want to.
Everyone starts with a clean slate. It's amazing how fast some people fall out of favor.
And all they have to do is enter, play, and check out.
That isn't good enough for most of them. They need special attention. They have special needs.
Take your special needs down the road. I've created a market for you lafond. Open up. Service these leftovers. See how long you last.
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pete lafond said:
Either you have a major comprehension problem or English is your Second language....
You make it seem as though I said Stepping up mas mandated.
Re-read what I "Actually" wrote. Play close attention to the "If".....
Jedi V Man said:
If someone is a B or C player, and wants to stay where they are and are happy at that level, then God Bless them, God Bless them all.....
However, Human Natural tells us that if someone enjoys what they are doing, they will stride to better themselves at it. Especially if they invest any sort of money and time into it.
Why actually own your own stick and case, hang out on a message board for Pool Connoisseurs, and not want to be a better player??? :rolleyes
I play with quite a few B and C players, all of them are constantly trying to shoot with better players, take lessons and learn as much as possible, and this includes shooting on Leagues and in local tournaments.
Believe it or not, being good at what you enjoy is fun, and getting better and better makes it even more fun...
pete lafond said:
and what business do you relate to ?,,,I have two businesses now: (1) retire-
ment, (from teaching) and (2) Amanda's Gameroom in central Mississippi,,,my slogan is on my door "Amanda's Gameroom is a business, not a hangout !" all the informative signs in the place have a notation at the bottom : "Read the Signs"...when someone gets out of line and before I can say it, the regular customers shout in unison, "Read the Signs",,,it's a wonderful world,,,I see former students 3 or 4 days a week at lunch & they still call me 'unkle jackie'
,,,red, yellow, black or white, we all had a good time in the classroom,,,a lot of them make way more $ than I do now in retirement, but they all tell me they liked my classes and the tough love/discipline that I gave out, so what's your claim to fame ?