Pool Handicapping Boom or Bust !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rickw]

Nfty,

The NPL is a pretty good system. I don't know if you're familiar with it. You get rated and then when you play the tournaments if you lose right away, your rating goes down a couple of points. If you win you're rating goes up a couple of points. Just like the USPPA, after a period of time, you're rating will stabilize to what it should be. NPL is based on the theory that over time, a player is not going to want to keep losing tournaments.

The USPPA, on the other hand, does provide slick players ways to "beat" the system a little especially when they're playing very weak players. The greater the # of marks you have on your score sheet, the lower you rating will be. So all the good player has to do is miss some shots and leave the ob somewhat safe which is pretty easy to do for a good player. I heard that one guy managed to have his girlfriend rate all his score sheets. For some reason, his rating was pretty low. Gee, what a coincidence!!

Another issue of concern that I have about the USPPA is that in some of the weekly tournaments that I have played in, the TD's are not paying attention to the players. I believe that if the TD's are really involved and watch the players, they can and should bump them up or down when they see evidence that it should be done. When you have a player that is a money player and usually wins the cash and you've seen them run racks for the cash and they're rated in the 40's or 50's, something is wrong and they should be dealt with accordingly.

In spite of what I just said above, I still like the USPPA and I think Tony Annigoni is trying hard to make it as fair as possible. For now, I think it's the best hcp system out there with the NPL running a close second.

Winning or losing matches has nothing to do with your usppa average.
So winning a match does not cause your rating to go up.
How well or bad you shoot does. If a sandbagger feels its worth it(which it is not) to miss and keep his average down him or her will eventually be outed in the usppa system.

 

[BAZARUS]

nfty9er

From what I've read so far you've been playing pool for 53 years and all you do is to desagree and critisice everyone around.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Winning or losing matches has nothing to do with your usppa average.

Yes, and that is a major flaw in the USPPA system. It is broken. It should be thrown away, to be replaced by a system that works better.

 

[Wild Eight]

I heard that one guy managed to have his girlfriend rate all his score sheets. For some reason, his rating was pretty low. Gee, what a coincidence!!

I have seen it work the other way too. Some guys like to brag about how high their rating is. My friend Jeff had a friend of his score all his games (USPPA), and would ask for more S's (for safeties) or less shot count. He ended up with a really high rating, and had a really frustrating time for months because of it LOL.

 

[nfty9er]

Npl

Nfty,

The NPL is a pretty good system. I don't know if you're familiar with it. You get rated and then when you play the tournaments if you lose right away, your rating goes down a couple of points. If you win you're rating goes up a couple of points. Just like the USPPA, after a period of time, you're rating will stabilize to what it should be. NPL is based on the theory that over time, a player is not going to want to keep losing tournaments.

The USPPA, on the other hand, does provide slick players ways to "beat" the system a little especially when they're playing very weak players. The greater the # of marks you have on your score sheet, the lower you rating will be. So all the good player has to do is miss some shots and leave the ob somewhat safe which is pretty easy to do for a good player. I heard that one guy managed to have his girlfriend rate all his score sheets. For some reason, his rating was pretty low. Gee, what a coincidence!!

Another issue of concern that I have about the USPPA is that in some of the weekly tournaments that I have played in, the TD's are not paying attention to the players. I believe that if the TD's are really involved and watch the players, they can and should bump them up or down when they see evidence that it should be done. When you have a player that is a money player and usually wins the cash and you've seen them run racks for the cash and they're rated in the 40's or 50's, something is wrong and they should be dealt with accordingly.

In spite of what I just said above, I still like the USPPA and I think Tony Annigoni is trying hard to make it as fair as possible. For now, I think it's the best hcp system out there with the NPL running a close second.

Yes I have and my players say it is too hard to compete because the spots become to hard to overcome unike the usppa. Someday I will try it when Tony kicks me out again. LOL
However I disagree to an extent that if the lowlifes want to cheat they will get caught and thrown out. The reason td do not pay attention too close is that they usually know everyone and their speed so they dont worry about it unless they get a complaint. Also as recommened by the usppa we all keep our own score sheets and like golf the self policing comes into effect. Now this may seem easier to cheat but its not. I know there are problems with other people keeping score also. I played in a tournament in s.f. and more score keeper was not even paying attention. She had no clue and did not care. She was just flirting with all the guys or talking pool. I just laughed to myself that it can be a joke. So when two players are watching each other it makes for more accurate sheets.
I deal with people harshly but some always fall through the cracks. I now have all my sandbaggers over a 90 rating. LOL

 

[Rickw]

Isn't that a little harsh Bob? There are flaws and I've listed just a few but overall, I think it's a very workable system. I have played a few times in your NPL and I liked that one too. Maybe both systems could borrow some good ideas from the other so that a hybrid system could be developed? I certainly do like the idea that some very good players tend to stay in the USPPA. Also, this system has been around for a very long time too and that has to say something.

Yes, and that is a major flaw in the USPPA system. It is broken. It should be thrown away, to be replaced by a system that works better.

 

[FATS]

Thanks for all your views. From all I've read the basic concensus is if everyone plays to their true ability most hcp systems will work. We also agree in large that hcp systems allow players who want to play and get better a more level playing field. But are the overall numbers going down???
The good players still win, the players that manipulate the system still win, and the average honest players pay for it. I learned to play playing straight up with the best around. It cost more than players have to pay today. Today I play fairly well probably one of the top 10 players in Arkansas. But no one is willing to test their skills against me without a spot. Is it really fair to the players who paid their dues to keep on paying not reaping the reward of all their hard work. Even the young champions of today have paid their dues so this effects young and old alike. Handicapping does allow more people to compete but does it build real players who are going to carry on with the sport???? Who knows, from my view I say no. Because I have seen too many players grow up in the hcp era and quit when the going gets tough. Looking for an easier pastime.

FATS

 

[ajrack]

Sandbaggers

Ya wanna stop the sandbaggggerssssss...
when you have a hndcp system...keep each level to a certain amount of money!
example... level rating # 4 = the MOST you can win in a touney is $400
level #5 = $500 / level #6 $600 ...etc.
In order for a sandbagger to win the money they have to win matches...if all they want to do is win "CHEEEEEP" money they can stay down in the lower class (but only so long ) and if they want to get to the bigger money they must go up in class..and they will get tired of just winning "little" money!

Run each level like (no pun intended) the "DOGS"...
Every time a dog wins the race they go up in class..after they lose a few they go down in class...

 

[Bob Jewett]

Isn't that a little harsh Bob? There are flaws and I've listed just a few but overall, I think it's a very workable system. I have played a few times in your NPL and I liked that one too. Maybe both systems could borrow some good ideas from the other so that a hybrid system could be developed? ...

In these days of partisan politics, no one listens unless you come down like a rabid weasel.

Yes, I think a hybrid system might be good. The main problem with the NPL system is that while rooms will level out properly among all the players there, the ratings in one room can be quite a bit different from the ratings in another room. This shows up when there is a regional tournament. As evil as scoresheets are, they do provide a mechanism for rating new players.

As for whether top players should get most of the money by a built-in bias of the system to let them win most of the time, we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[nfty9er]

Usppa

In these days of partisan politics, no one listens unless you come down like a rabid weasel.

Yes, I think a hybrid system might be good. The main problem with the NPL system is that while rooms will level out properly among all the players there, the ratings in one room can be quite a bit different from the ratings in another room. This shows up when there is a regional tournament. As evil as scoresheets are, they do provide a mechanism for rating new players.

As for whether top players should get most of the money by a built-in bias of the system to let them win most of the time, we'll have to agree to disagree.[
/QUOTE
Rating problems also are a problem in the usppa from room to room. It shows up at the Reno tournaments when in my opinion all the players from the l.a. area seem to be underrated.

 

[Frank_Glenn]

As for whether top players should get most of the money by a built-in bias of the system to let them win most of the time, we'll have to agree to disagree.

We modified the NPL system a little. We also split the money up and had 15% of it go to the winner of a mini tournament for the last 4 teams (we had 7 teams). The other breakdown was 20%, 25%, & 40% of the pot to the first 3 teams. This kept all the teams interested until the end.

 

[Rickw]

This happens in the USPPA too. I play in two different PHs and one of them has pretty weak players in general and the other one has very strong players. I can't carry my handicap from the weak room in the strong room. If I play all the time in the strong room and then play once in a while in the weak room, the players in the weak room think I'm sandbagging. I think this is just a problem with handicapping that may not be remedied.

The main problem with the NPL system is that while rooms will level out properly among all the players there, the ratings in one room can be quite a bit different from the ratings in another room.

 

[wayne]

Rating problems also are a problem in the usppa from room to room. It shows up at the Reno tournaments when in my opinion all the players from the l.a. area seem to be underrated.[/QUOTE]

Hey, don't be picking on us poor players from L.A.

Actually, we may be a little underrated. My theory is the conditions we play under here make it much more difficult to get our averages up. At one pool hall we had tight pockets, a heavy cue ball and chalk that crumbled but that place was finally dumped and now the Sat. tournament is at Hollywood Billiards where it is possible to break and run-out (although the pockets are tight still). Two other weekly tournaments in the Valley are on very tough equipment also. I usually don't break hard but I was almost breaking my arm trying to make a ball on the break in a recent tournament, after 13 breaks I finally made one but unfortunately it was the cue ball. Some tables play decent and you can make balls on the break and run out but others are nightmares. When nothing is predictable it makes it very difficult even for very good players.

Reno tables are like a dream, you break a few balls go in, everything opens up and you can run out.

If you play somewhere where the pockets are big and the rails are lively you are going to have a higher average.

Wayne

 

[nfty9er]

I dont disagree with that

Rating problems also are a problem in the usppa from room to room. It shows up at the Reno tournaments when in my opinion all the players from the l.a. area seem to be underrated.

Hey, don't be picking on us poor players from L.A.

Actually, we may be a little underrated. My theory is the conditions we play under here make it much more difficult to get our averages up. At one pool hall we had tight pockets, a heavy cue ball and chalk that crumbled but that place was finally dumped and now the Sat. tournament is at Hollywood Billiards where it is possible to break and run-out (although the pockets are tight still). Two other weekly tournaments in the Valley are on very tough equipment also. I usually don't break hard but I was almost breaking my arm trying to make a ball on the break in a recent tournament, after 13 breaks I finally made one but unfortunately it was the cue ball. Some tables play decent and you can make balls on the break and run out but others are nightmares. When nothing is predictable it makes it very difficult even for very good players.

Reno tables are like a dream, you break a few balls go in, everything opens up and you can run out.

If you play somewhere where the pockets are big and the rails are lively you are going to have a higher average.

Wayne[/QUOTE]

YOU ARE EXACTLY RIGHT.
AND LIKE SOMEONE ELSE SAID, WHOEVER IS KEEPING SCORE CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE. NOT EVERYONE SEES THINGS THE SAME WAY. THATS WHY I LIKE BOTH PLAYERS IN ALL MATCHES KEEPING THEIR OWN SCORES.

 

[CaptainJR]

Sorry but you obviously do not know how the usppa system works. The system has nothing to do with another player. Your rating is solely based on your performance or lack of it. You are scored on every inning based on the shot being an open shot to the pocket or an unmakeable shot. After about 90 scoresheets a player is qualified and his score is now permanent, and thus adjusted on his performance weekly not an opponents. So sir there is a score.
So "like" golf your opponent has nothing to do with your score. Eventually everyone averages out to their speed and for the most part it works. Sandbaggers are dealt with and also averages can be raised when necessary and also bansishment for sandbaggers. So it does work out in the long run.
I have been playing pool for 53 years and this system as a good as it gets bar none. Golfers can sandbag a lot easier than people in this system.
And players are always trying to improve to get to higher levels, there is no letdown whether playing in a tourny or one on one with a spot. You still have to work hard to win.

Opps, I was talking about APA handicapping for the most part which I mentioned in my first post in this thread. I failed to mention it in this one. I'm continuing to follow this thread with interest because your correct, I've never even heard of 'usppa' before.

thank you
CaptJR

 

[nfty9er]

info

Opps, I was talking about APA handicapping for the most part which I mentioned in my first post in this thread. I failed to mention it in this one. I'm continuing to follow this thread with interest because your correct, I've never even heard of 'usppa' before.

thank you
CaptJR

go to usppa.com and u will learn more