Pool Handicapping Boom or Bust !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bob Jewett]

... I was just wanting to know everyones thought on handicapping players for leagues and tournaments....What do you think??????

Around here, most of the play is in handicapped formats, either league or tournaments.

A fair, free handicapping method is available at info on the NPL. For more discussions and examples of its use, search for NPL at groups.google.com in rec.sport.billiard or in the general google search. One advantage is that match lengths are roughly equal regardless of the two players skill levels. Another advantage (some say disadvantage) is that it is completely fair in that in the long run, every match will be close to 50-50. I've played about 500 matches in the system and I'm within 10 matches of 50% wins.

 

[Frank_Glenn]

Around here, most of the play is in handicapped formats, either league or tournaments.

A fair, free handicapping method is available at info on the NPL. For more discussions and examples of its use, search for NPL at groups.google.com in rec.sport.billiard or in the general google search. One advantage is that match lengths are roughly equal regardless of the two players skill levels. Another advantage (some say disadvantage) is that it is completely fair in that in the long run, every match will be close to 50-50. I've played about 500 matches in the system and I'm within 10 matches of 50% wins.

Yes, I used this for a league for a couple of years. No one complained about the handicapping, ever. You know at the end of the night what you will be next week as it is based on win/loss, no innings, balls left or other stuff. The pool hall did not have alcohol, so the league (and the pool hall) are now history. I also gave back the most money to the prize fund. No trip, no trophy, just cash.

 

[nfty9er]

Handicapped=usppa

We have used the USPPA system of handicapping for 15 years now and I found it to be the most fairest way of conducting a tournament. If I counted all the winners over the weekly tournament for all those years I would venture to guess that the lesser pool player won it 50 percent of the time and the best player maybe 25 percent and the rest in between. In short races the spotting of games really helps the lesser player affording him a great chance of winning. The longer the race a better player does gain some advantage but still has a hard time winning. An example is the large tournaments in Reno. Except for the last few tournments almost all the Reno winners were players of lesser averages that took home the money. It is pretty hard for the best player or highest average to spot 5 games in a race to 8. This is what makes it so great for the lesser player, especially the ones like someone said will never improve. It may have ruined the hustlers action but it has improved action with everybody as like in golf you can match up with a fair spot. The only people who dont like it are the people who want to steal your money. Because of the handicap we have money games every day of the week and a lot of them are even games. So I disagree about it hurting the action. If people want to gamble and they like to, they will find a way.

 

[Wild Eight]

Handicapping not for me.

I have played in Handicapped leagues (USPPA) as well as non-handicapped leagues. I really like playing "straight up" better. I really hated dealing with my average all the time and I felt like it made me lazy.
I am not a guy that wins every Thursday night tournament but I go anyway. I love the excitement of playing against a great player and knowing if I make a mistake that I will pay dearly for it. When you win those games/matches it feels like you are high. It also forces me to improve my game.
I do not mean to criticize the USPPA any way though. They are a great organization. And I think the appeal is there for some one that wants to have a life, instead of just playing pool non stop.
Thats my 2 cents.

 

[nfty9er]

straigt up from straight shooter

I have played in Handicapped leagues (USPPA) as well as non-handicapped leagues. I really like playing "straight up" better. I really hated dealing with my average all the time and I felt like it made me lazy.
I am not a guy that wins every Thursday night tournament but I go anyway. I love the excitement of playing against a great player and knowing if I make a mistake that I will pay dearly for it. When you win those games/matches it feels like you are high. It also forces me to improve my game.
I do not mean to criticize the USPPA any way though. They are a great organization. And I think the appeal is there for some one that wants to have a life, instead of just playing pool non stop.
Thats my 2 cents.

I agree on the straight up aspect and understand, as I would always rather play straight up and dealing with the handicap is a pain so I can understand your feeling but do you gamble that way or just play in tournaments that are open? Tournaments against the best are fun but losing money may improve your game but may not be fun. These handicaps are for the average players and the room owner needs all of them for as a whole as they make for more business than the great player so making it competitive for them is important for overall business.

 

[KBP]

Reply to Thread

Again, this is why we created the Amateur 9-Ball Tour Divisions in the Southeast. It is to fill the void between weekly league play and open division tournaments. No pros or top regional tour players allowed. Low entry fees($40.), reasonable room added monies($500. to $1,000.), and lots of very, very good competition. We have a great title tour sponsor with FURY CUES. They provide pool room product, as well as product for our annual points championships. We have 5 divisions running all year long independent of each other and we are expanding as we speak. Come join the fun. Check us out at home.gate.net/~higgins3/
No www. required

 

[Wild Eight]

but do you gamble that way or just play in tournaments that are open?

Gambling is a bit different for me. I do gamble and sometimes I will give or take a few games on the wire. For me part of the fun of gambling is establishing the race and the weight. Glad you made this point as I was thinking along the same lines myself.

Tournaments against the best are fun but losing money may improve your game but may not be fun.

I may be a glutton for punishment then. I play in a Thursday night, Friday night and a Saturday night tourney. I also have league on Tuesday. But that’s me; I know I have a sickness called pool.
For someone that can only or only wants to play a few nights a week, a handicap is probably much more fun.
Heck maybe I will see ya in December at the USPPA Open??

 

[woody_968]

.Despite the handicap all four A+ players finished in the top 4 as the cream usually rises to the top.

You will find this happens often when the handicap is to give games. If you take an +A player playing a D player, I dont think you can give the D player enough to win. I ran a handicap tourney that was spotting balls instead of games. We had everything from 2s to 10s win the tournament.

That being said, I hate handicap tourneys and do think they are ruining pool. Where is the motivation to get better? In many cases people do everything they can NOT to go up in skill level!

Woody - Hates Handicaps.

 

[Bob Jewett]

That being said, I hate handicap tourneys and do think they are ruining pool. Where is the motivation to get better? In many cases people do everything they can NOT to go up in skill level!

In the NPL system, the only way to avoid having your rating go up is to lose games. Other systems which count innings and safes and such allow fairly easy manipulation by sandbaggers. Also, they require a complicated score sheet to track each shot or inning. With the NPL (or any similar system such as the one used to rate chess players) scoring is simple and the spot is guaranteed to be fair in the long run. I think the other systems are bad and broken.

The problem comes in when the top players who feel they should always crush the chumps, run into a spot that is fair -- one that makes them work, and work hard to beat the chumps. Some may say, well the champ should win, he put in so much more effort to raise his game, but I see a lot of mediocre players who work much harder on their games than some champs. One way to keep the champs happy is to have special Masters events with added money.

 

[Williebetmore]

I've played about 500 matches in the system and I'm within 10 matches of 50% wins.

Then why not just flip a coin (just think how much you will save in table time)? Just kidding.

This brings me to the point where I agree with posters that want a handicap system that still favors the better player. Our straight pool league went to a handicapping system 2 years ago, with the operator using a system that allows the weaker player about 80% of his average ball differential. Handicap goes down if you win (the lower the handicap the better the player), it goes up if you lose - so the only way to sandbag is to lose a match (there appears to be no sandbagging going on). The poorer players ALWAYS have a chance to win every match, and the top players MUST play well for the entire 100 ball match (when you are spotting someone 70 balls to 100 you have to play hard). The majority of matches are very exciting, the poorer players occasionally to often beat the top dogs, and at the end of the year the better players are at the top. We feel this encourages everyone, better and poorer players love it. It's a lot better than a full handicap system where it is basically a coin flip. We also pay all 18 places (18 man league) so that the last week everyone is playing for something - even if its to avoid the ignominy of last place.

If full handicaps are used it brings up these 2 questions: If I can beat a better player 50 % of the time right now, what incentive do I have to get better (besides a deep and abiding love of the game)? If I am a sandbagger without a love of the game, what incentive do I have not to sandbag??

 

[Bob Jewett]

If full handicaps are used it brings up these 2 questions: If I can beat a better player 50 % of the time right now, what incentive do I have to get better (besides a deep and abiding love of the game)? If I am a sandbagger without a love of the game, what incentive do I have not to sandbag??

Do you want to win matches? If you win a match, your rating goes up. In order to win more than 50%, you have to improve continuously. If you want to win any particular match, you probably have to play better than your average.

The only way to sandbag is to lose matches.

 

[fbreen]

Handicaps

It is rare to see a tournament these days that is a straight race.
Some tournaments you can not even play in because of the handicap limits.

Yes it is being Dominated by your A B C D or APA or BCA handicap.
You are branded.

The best players should win the tournaments more often than not. Because they are the best players.

Anything can happen in pool that is why you have to #1 play the game and #2 focus on every shot.

Handicapping is a Boom only because it's widely used today.

In the long run. If you are giving the weight you will become a smarter player. Because you just can not afford to give anything away.

That is the positive I take out of it.

The more weight you give the less opportunities you give.
Or it will bite you..

 

[CaptainJR]

The Problem with handicapping pool.

In pool there is nothing to base the handicapping on. In my other post in this thread I mention golf and bowling. In pool, there is no score. That is the problem. The only thing you have to base a handicap on is a players performance against another player.

Why doesn't this work? To many variables. How consistent is the average pool player. Not very. Even the very good players have there good days and great days. So you put a good player against a poor player and the good player has a poor day and the poor player has a great day and it throws the system off. You might think this averages out over the long run. I would have to say, there are to many variables. What if the great player has a good day instead of a great and the poor player has a great day, but the lay of the balls gives the great player an advantage and the poor player besides having a great day also has an extremely lucky day. To many variables to create a handicap based on performance against another player on a given day or the performance against several players on several days.

I'm most familiar with golf handicapping so I'm going to use that as my example. What the opponent shoots has nothing to do with your handicap. You even have course ratings involved. The only thing that would compare to this in pool is to have an experienced player look at the layout of every brake and give it a degree of difficulty. Not going to happen.

As I mentioned above, the problem is there is no score. The solution? I can only think of a couple, but I don't think they would be very popular. You need a game that would allow matches determine the win or loss, but the individuals score determine the handicaps. Some sort of pre-determined shot sequence would be ideal, but a game like bowliards would do in a pinch.

CaptJR

 

[BAZARUS]

I think, that the main reason for handicaping system is the money. Simply it brings more players to the local tournaments and the pool owners make more money. In reality is of course bad for our sport. You will never learn how to play by participating in handicaped tournaments, unless you are a beginner.
I remember back home, when for the first time we started to play, there was no handicap and you had to practice more to have a chance with better players. Today all you have to do is to ask for a spot. That makes your game weaker simply because you don't have to try to hard.
just my 2 cents

 

[Rickw]

In the USPPA tournaments, there are many players that start out at a 25 speed and move right on up into the 100's. It can be done. This contradicts the posts that say there is no incentive for players to get better in a hcp tournament.

I've also played in the NPL and I think it is set up pretty good to ensure that players strive to get better.

 

[fluidstroke]

Here in our room we have a monday handicap tourny. Last night we had 46 players. 1st place 500 beans. this tournament is single elim. There is rarely less than 32 players. I used to play at another spot that had a open tourney twice a week was very popular for about a year. Money was good for top 3. After a year when it was usually one of the same three or four players winning this tourney went way down. Mabye 14 players on a good night. Those players that arent as skilled still love to play. But they also would like at least a small chance of cashing. After donating forever and never cashing they will eventually go somewhere else. There are arguments for both sides. Personally winning a handicap tourny kept me playing and striving to improve. in three years have gone from a high D player to where i am now a middle B player. Going to keep working on my game. Cant go this year but next year im going to play in the Open.

 

[nfty9er]

Captain u are in error

In pool there is nothing to base the handicapping on. In my other post in this thread I mention golf and bowling. In pool, there is no score. That is the problem. The only thing you have to base a handicap on is a players performance against another player.

Why doesn't this work? To many variables. How consistent is the average pool player. Not very. Even the very good players have there good days and great days. So you put a good player against a poor player and the good player has a poor day and the poor player has a great day and it throws the system off. You might think this averages out over the long run. I would have to say, there are to many variables. What if the great player has a good day instead of a great and the poor player has a great day, but the lay of the balls gives the great player an advantage and the poor player besides having a great day also has an extremely lucky day. To many variables to create a handicap based on performance against another player on a given day or the performance against several players on several days.

I'm most familiar with golf handicapping so I'm going to use that as my example. What the opponent shoots has nothing to do with your handicap. You even have course ratings involved. The only thing that would compare to this in pool is to have an experienced player look at the layout of every brake and give it a degree of difficulty. Not going to happen.

As I mentioned above, the problem is there is no score. The solution? I can only think of a couple, but I don't think they would be very popular. You need a game that would allow matches determine the win or loss, but the individuals score determine the handicaps. Some sort of pre-determined shot sequence would be ideal, but a game like bowliards would do in a pinch.

CaptJR

Sorry but you obviously do not know how the usppa system works. The system has nothing to do with another player. Your rating is solely based on your performance or lack of it. You are scored on every inning based on the shot being an open shot to the pocket or an unmakeable shot. After about 90 scoresheets a player is qualified and his score is now permanent, and thus adjusted on his performance weekly not an opponents. So sir there is a score.
So "like" golf your opponent has nothing to do with your score. Eventually everyone averages out to their speed and for the most part it works. Sandbaggers are dealt with and also averages can be raised when necessary and also bansishment for sandbaggers. So it does work out in the long run.
I have been playing pool for 53 years and this system as a good as it gets bar none. Golfers can sandbag a lot easier than people in this system.
And players are always trying to improve to get to higher levels, there is no letdown whether playing in a tourny or one on one with a spot. You still have to work hard to win.

 

[nfty9er]

Whats your experience?

I think, that the main reason for handicaping system is the money. Simply it brings more players to the local tournaments and the pool owners make more money. In reality is of course bad for our sport. You will never learn how to play by participating in handicaped tournaments, unless you are a beginner.
I remember back home, when for the first time we started to play, there was no handicap and you had to practice more to have a chance with better players. Today all you have to do is to ask for a spot. That makes your game weaker simply because you don't have to try to hard.
just my 2 cents

You are only right about one thing, the handicap systemdoes bring more players and money is involved but its a two way street. Players get a lot out of it. It is not bad for our sport and I respectfully disagree vehemently with you. If you never want to try hard you better hang up your cue. If I play a high handicap player with a spot do you really think one will not try harder?
I dont thinkk so, I sure never have and I have been playing 53 years, and if you have been you would realize that. You are assuming everyone is always playing someone better. How about all the time you are playing someone the same speed or lesser and u are spotting. So your not trying harder. Handicapping is the best thing that happened to pool for the casual players and the pro players. It has thousands more people into the game. People in my room practice all the time handicap or none. Sorry but your reasoining is totally wrong. I played great players in handicap tournaments and my game always improved whether they spotted me or not and I actually try harder.
I also learn how to play better by watching them as their game changes when they have to spot people. So it helps when u have to do it.

 

[nfty9er]

Exactly

In the USPPA tournaments, there are many players that start out at a 25 speed and move right on up into the 100's. It can be done. This contradicts the posts that say there is no incentive for players to get better in a hcp tournament.

I've also played in the NPL and I think it is set up pretty good to ensure that players strive to get better.

TAP TAP TAP

 

[nfty9er]

Not in the USPPA

Do you want to win matches? If you win a match, your rating goes up. In order to win more than 50%, you have to improve continuously. If you want to win any particular match, you probably have to play better than your average.

The only way to sandbag is to lose matches.

Winning or losing matches has nothing to do with your usppa average.
So winning a match does not cause your rating to go up.
How well or bad you shoot does. If a sandbagger feels its worth it(which it is not) to miss and keep his average down him or her will eventually be outed in the usppa system.