Pool League Situation - Make the Call - APA Match

The original post asked what the rule was. They didn't ask what we would like the rule to be, what we think the rule should be, what your local bylaws are, or what our opinion on the 23 rule is...........

If it were the opponent and it was me that it happened to, in regular league play, I'd probably give them the win. If it happened like the description in the OP. (Playoffs are a different thing...you need to be paying attention to every little thing in playoffs, in my opinion. No wiggle room.)

However, that's me. And the players that I play with, in the places where I play. I'm sure there are situations where if someone doesn't follow the letter of the law, its gonna cause more problems, either right then or later down the line. You would be setting precedent...I don't like how this rule applies, so I don't follow it...so what about that rule? Or the next rule? Some places and some people will make this sort of thing a problem.
 
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Chili Palmer said:
Agreed. In any billiards game, that I have ever played - touch the CB and it's a foul.
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Agree with both of you. But, this is a thread about the APA. So.....

I play by world standard rules when I am not playing APA. I don't get to impose MY rules on THEIR league. And vice versa.
 
Accidentally moved ball + any contact with cue ball = foul under APA's rule. But, who caused the ball to accidentally move is the operative question because the person who caused it to accidentally move is the person who should be charged with a foul. The innocent player who is bumped has done nothing and should not be charged with a foul.
 
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justadub said:
The original post asked what the rule was. They didn't ask what we would like the rule to be, what we think the rule should be, what your local bylaws are, or what our opinion on the 23 rule is...........

If it were the opponent and it was me that it happened to, in regular league play, I'd probably give them the win. If it happened like the description in the OP. (Playoffs are a different thing...you need to be paying attention to every little thing in playoffs, in my opinion. No wiggle room.)

However, that's me. And the players that I play with, in the places where I play. I'm sure there are situations where if someone doesn't follow the letter of the law, its gonna cause more problems, either right then or later down the line. You would be setting precedent...I don't like how this rule applies, so I don't follow it...so what about that rule? Or the next rule? Some places and some people will make this sort of thing a problem.
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What if that win you gave them prevented you from going to the playoffs?

I look at it this way, if there are rules they need to be followed. If it's not clearly defined and is questionable, I would probably give it to a lower skill level player but I wouldn't give it to a higher skill level player. They should no better.
 
Biloxi Boy said:
Accidentally moved ball + any contact with cue ball = foul under APA's rule. But, who caused the ball to accidentally move is the operative question because the person who caused it to accidentally move is the person who should be charged with a foul. The innocent player who is bumped has done nothing and should not be chargrd with a foul.
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https://media.poolplayers.com/TMRB/Team-Manual-English.pdf

Here's the new rulebook. Section 16 covers all questions you have. 16 (f) in particular. Intent is key.
 
16 e. Your opponent fouls the cue ball and pockets the 8-ball.

No intent required. Foul on CB + 8 ball pocketed = loss of game. Can of worms of intent is avoided.

"Foul" with no qualifier means any foul.
 
Biloxi Boy said:
16 e. Your opponent fouls the cue ball and pockets the 8-ball.

No intent required. Foul on CB + 8 ball pocketed = loss of game. Can of worms of intent is avoided.

"Foul" with no qualifier means any foul.
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Never play APA. You'd struggle if this is how deeply you read into rules.
 
Chili Palmer said:
Here's a screenshot (technically a snippet) of the rule in question.

It's rule 15.1. Seems pretty straightforward and the LO was wrong, unless, as someone mentioned, one of their by-laws addresses this scenario.
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Am I interpreting this incorrectly? The ruled detailed in section d. indicates to me that the only way to get a legal shot in the situation where the object ball is frozen to the cushion is to drive that or another object ball to another cushion. That does not leave the situation where the cue ball contacts the object ball and then only the cue ball contacts the cushion that the object ball is frozen to as an alternative for a legal shot. Years ago that was the rule according to the BCA - the frozen ball or the cue ball had to contact a different cushion. However that was changed over 20 years ago.

I checked the WPA rules and could not find this situation addressed. The CSI rules state that the shot played the way I detailed it is in fact a legal shot as long as the cue ball contacts the object ball first. Is this some idiosyncrasy with the APA or perhaps it is detailed somewhere else in the rules?
 
First off, let me tell you what our by-laws state in our league area. The rule says that altering the course of a moving cue ball is ALWAYS a foul, regardless of whatever may have happened before or after the shot.

A dropped piece of chalk, a lock of hair, a garment sleeve, a necklace, and definitely an accidentally touched object ball (and moved into the path of the moving cue ball), etc. would all be good examples of altering the course of a moving cue ball.

As far as whether or not a foul should or shouldn't be called, especially if it appeared the cue ball was NOT going to scratch, herein lies the problem that no one has mentioned yet:

APA leagues are a team sport. Eight-person teams with five matches a night. Many, or should I say most players have their eyes set on the playoffs, regionals, and eventually a trip to Vegas. A lot of people are rabid in their enthusiasm to win the trip to Vegas, some of my teammates included. Myself, I don't give a rat's ass if I make the playoffs, let alone a trip to Vegas. Playing a match where there was no other people involved (i.e. teammates), I would have assuredly given my opponent the win in the OP's scenario. But....when other people are involved and the TEAM depends on winning at all cost, you have to do what is right for the team.

I would not have wanted to call a foul and subsequent loss of game in the OP's scenario, but I probably would have called the foul for the sake of my teammates, who have a common goal of working their way to Vegas. Now, if my teammates didn't give a rat's ass either, I wouldn't have called the foul. YMMV

Maniac
 
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cue4me said:
Am I interpreting this incorrectly? The ruled detailed in section d. indicates to me that the only way to get a legal shot in the situation where the object ball is frozen to the cushion is to drive that or another object ball to another cushion. That does not leave the situation where the cue ball contacts the object ball and then only the cue ball contacts the cushion that the object ball is frozen to as an alternative for a legal shot. Years ago that was the rule according to the BCA - the frozen ball or the cue ball had to contact a different cushion. However that was changed over 20 years ago.

I checked the WPA rules and could not find this situation addressed. The CSI rules state that the shot played the way I detailed it is in fact a legal shot as long as the cue ball contacts the object ball first. Is this some idiosyncrasy with the APA or perhaps it is detailed somewhere else in the rules?
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I've always played you have to hit another rail if the OB is frozen, was unaware it was changed. That being said, I didn't play much pool from April 2004 through July of 2018, I'm sure lots of idiosyncrasy's have been "adjusted" during that time.
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
Or, look at it this way. They accidentally moved the object ball, this is a recreational league, and we want to grow the game. So, let's act like an asshole, and take away an earned win because they did something that we don't like.

Sound about right?
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The APA is the ‘premier amateur league’ as they refer to themselves. Recreational my ass.
 
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Chili Palmer said:
I've always played you have to hit another rail if the OB is frozen, was unaware it was changed. That being said, I didn't play much pool from April 2004 through July of 2018, I'm sure lots of idiosyncrasy's have been "adjusted" during that time.
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Where did frozen ball come into this?
 
And now anytime anyone is hoping to get away with a foul that league operator can expect a call and a halt of play for all the players. What a horrible decision.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Shawn Armstrong said:
Where did frozen ball come into this?
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I think that some wild hare pointed out another flaw/confusion/mistake in the APA rules. Sometimes such posters don't adhere strictly to the topic that the OP hoped to have addressed. Perhaps you've seen that sort of thing before?

Just like your post and mine.:groucho:
 
Hits 'em Hard said:
There’s a massive difference between you and your lack of motor control causing a foul. Versus something uncontrolled causing a foul. In the situation you described, if someone else causes me to foul the cue ball after the shot was taken. The only recourse should be to replay the shot. Which isn’t the case for the OP. We all know you got a hardon for bashing the APA but this is getting silly.
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The only thing I find silly is that someone would actually use the rule book to gain a win in league play, its just a league. If the cue ball was headed for a pocket with lots of speed it might be worth calling but if its rolling to the center of the table and not fast enough to hit a cushion I certainly would not call it. I would inform the player that they fouled and congratulate them on their win but I aint calling a foul, I dont need to win 1 game in league like that Many times in league my opponent has miscued on the break and I tell him to try again, winning first place in league year after year is kinda like being the best softball player in Greenland.
 
fastone371 said:
The only thing I find silly is that someone would actually use the rule book to gain a win in league play, its just a league. ...
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The other way to look at it is that league should be a learning experience and the league should help the players to learn the rules.
 
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