Pool league timeouts

JesseBfan

JesseBfan

Motivation, where are u?
Silver Member
I am the most experienced and knowledgeable player on my team. Therefore I handle all of the advice giving for our timeouts. The skill level of my teammates varies a great deal yes but they are all veterans. They have all notched tons of victories over the years and of course losses too. All of us are very competitive and the league we play in is pretty competitive on a week by week basis.

My problem here is that despite my knowledge and personal abilities, we don't have a good percentage of execution of the plan/shot that I suggest during these timeouts. In fact our numbers are quite bad IMO. I take the blame for this as I feel like I could perhaps suggest something different(playing 8-ball on 9' tables). I'm a believer in the right shot being the right shot and I rarely find situations that I haven't been in or am comfortable with the execution so I struggle with giving another shot as a suggestion. I know to some of you this sounds dumb but it's something I want to improve for the sake of my teams future success so I'm putting it out there hoping to get some good feedback.

Thanks for your time
 
Let me share what ive seen in four plus years of APA.

Sometimes the best player doesn't give the best timeouts.

Sorry.

Here's what I think is the reason. The more experienced, more advanced players sometimes expect and assume too much, especially of the real beginners, the SL2's and 3's. And sometimes stuff you guys just take for granted gets left out.

That's not a knock on you. We have the same issue with the SL7 on my team. Most of the time, we don't have him give the time outs for our 2's and 3's, cuz he doesn't communicate with them at the level they need.

I am probably the fourth best player on our team, but I give the coaches 50% of the time to the 2's and 3's. And if I want or need a confirmation on what I want them to do, I will send the player to the other end of the table and bring our 7 up and check with him. That's rare, cuz I won't ask players to do something they aren't capable of, at least not very often.

Coaching is a skill, too. The best player is not always the best coach.
 
justadub said:
Let me share what ive seen in four plus years of APA.

Sometimes the best player doesn't give the best timeouts.

Sorry.

Here's what I think is the reason. The more experienced, more advanced players sometimes expect and assume too much, especially of the real beginners, the SL2's and 3's. And sometimes stuff you guys just take for granted gets left out.

That's not a knock on you. We have the same issue with the SL7 on my team. Most of the time, we don't have him give the time outs for our 2's and 3's, cuz he doesn't communicate with them at the level they need.

I am probably the fourth best player on our team, but I give the coaches 50% of the time to the 2's and 3's. And if I want or need a confirmation on what I want them to do, I will send the player to the other end of the table and bring our 7 up and check with him. That's rare, cuz I won't ask players to do something they aren't capable of, at least not very often.

Coaching is a skill, too. The best player is not always the best coach.
Click to expand...

No offense taken at all. Agree with what you're saying too. It's certainly a skill. One I'm trying to cultivate :-)
 
i tend to agree with dub but would like to expand on it some more.

taking into consideration your players limitations plays a huge part in their success.

i think i have pretty good success coaching most of my players. one thing i do different than most is i don't take a long time put like i see a lot of people do.

i quickly look at all options and take the 1 i think best for my player. i tell them what part of the object ball to hit. where to strike the cue. what speed to hit the cue ball. give them a pat on the back and say go for it.

i dont give them time to think. they are already nervous and i dont want to add to that. i just tell them to give it their best. as you know " when you think long ... you think wrong ".

regardless of their success they know that i think they tried their best and that instills confidence in them.

i have one of the worst shooting 3's you have ever seen on my team but he has about 90% success rate on my time outs. he has that much confidence in me which instills confidence in himself when he is shooting. when he misses i always tell him ... good try and i probably could'nt have done better my self on that shot.
 
justadub said:
The more experienced, more advanced players sometimes expect and assume too much, especially of the real beginners, the SL2's and 3's. And sometimes stuff you guys just take for granted gets left out.
Click to expand...

I agree with this. To be a great coach in a live match situation, you not only have to understand what the best shot is, but you must also know with great detail what your player's skill level really is.

Here are some of my personal experiences with coaching:

When my APA skill level reached the max, and I was basically precluded from playing on a "regular" team, I decided to start a new type of team. With the help of one other maxed out player, we started forming 8-ball teams consisting of two 7's, and five 2's. These were the most enjoyable APA teams I have ever participated in. We had to replace the 2's each season because all the 2's became 4's and 5's. It was GREAT!

Each league night, one of us would play, and the other would coach. We learned a lot from those seasons. Hopefully, our experiences will help other high-level players to become more effective coaches.

1. Most important: You must know the true skill level of your player. This includes their strengths, weaknesses, and personalities. When you approach the table to provide coaching advice during a match, stay relaxed and light-hearted. Feel free to explain what you believe would be the ultimate shot, but be sure to let them know that some of the other alternatives could still be very effective.

2. Communicate. Don't force a solution on them. Help them to find the appropriate solution by asking the right questions. For example, "How would you feel about trying to hit this ball and leaving the cue ball here?" LISTEN to their answer and adjust your recommendation as needed. If they end up dogging a shot they had little chance of successfully completing, they will not have a positive coaching experience, and may not be as receptive to advice in the future (especially when under pressure).

3. Be cooperative, not dictatorial. HELP them find an offensive or defensive shot that aligns with their current strengths and weaknesses, and perhaps offer a general strategy for the remainder of the game. If your player is a little uncomfortable with a proposed solution, but you believe they can successfully execute it, TELL THEM that. Offer encouragement and your full support, no matter which option they choose.. Tell them "I really believe you can do this, and it's worth a try, but if it doesn't work out perfectly, IT'S OKAY."

4. Be more aggressive in regular league play, and more conservative during tournaments/playoffs/end-of-season. Push them to try defensive or offensive shots that are a little bit beyond their skill level during regular league matches (and be sure they understand that it is OK if they don't quite get it right), but during more important matches, lean more towards the conservative side, and encourage to them shoot the easier shot if they are nervous, even if it is a bit less effective. If you explain the options well during league, then they will be receptive to having multiple options when the pressure is on. In fact, they will appreciate the opportunity to choose their option (with your guidance).

5. Try to remember each timeout during league night, and quickly and casually review the timeout with the player after the match. "Hey, remember when you asked me about banking that 3-ball? I was thinking we could try some of those options real quick so we can see which ones work best for you." Then spend a few minutes at the table, explaining to your player WHY certain options offer better potential or risk, and why others may be mediocre but somewhat effective.

6. Never criticize a shot you coached DURING a match. If they screw it up, smile and tell them, "It's okay, you were really close." Encourage them to stay positive and let them know you would be happy to work on it with them later.

7. My secret APA weapon: Sometimes, during a match, if your low-skill-level player is doing well, and everything is okay, but they begin to get a little nervous, call a timeout, and GO TALK TO THEM. "Hey, I just wanted to say, I'm impressed; you are really shooting great tonight. How are you feeling?" Don't be afraid of wasting a timeout for this. I have used this at all levels of play, from regular league night, to the National Championships, and it is very effective when used in a genuine, friendly, supportive way. There are no rules that say your timeout must discuss a specific shot. :)

8. Flip it. (similar to #7): When YOU are in a match, and come up with a cool solution to a layout problem or strategy, call a timeout, and ask your low-skill-level teammate to be YOUR coach. Discuss the situation, let them take a crack at a solution, then tell them what you were thinking, and ask them how they feel about it. This is GREAT for team-building and building trust between top players and low-skill-level players because there is absolutely NO pressure on them, but they get to analyze a real live match situation with a very experienced player. Plus, occasionally, you will discover a great move from the naivety of your rookie.

I hope some of these guidelines will help you. If you would like more detail on any of these, or more advice, please let me know. I'd be happy to help. I have a lot of ideas. :)

Best of luck, and HAVE FUN!

-Blake
 
On our team it's not always the highest rank or even the captain that always gives the time outs, it's who relates to the player best, who speaks the same language, so to speak, and who is available. Personally, if I'm called on to coach the first thing I'll do is ask the player what they think and try to give several options. Together we'll pick the what we think is the highest percentage option and if we absolutely don't need something else we'll talk about how to execute the shot selection. All of the senior S/L players are trusted to coach, but we'd all do things a little differently usually. Sometimes one of us may be more appropriate depending on the situation and the opponent and it's not unusual to call a timeout if we see something and call on someone else to coach, and as well we're always free, as senior S/L players to call a time out for each other. Everyone sees the table a little differently, sometimes a different perspective can be very helpful.
 
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Do you play APA format, where you have up to 8 player and take turns scoring for each other?

I think the person who is scoring, should also be spotting opportunities to coach. The player has his/her head in the game, while the scorer can see the overall picture. The scorer doesn't have to be the coach, just remind the player the opportunity for a coach.

Last week, I'm scoring for one of my teammates, he is an SL 2 playing even. So, its a race to 2, or 3 games max. They're both on the hill 1-1. When my SL2 gets BIH, I remind him he still has two coaching sessions left. His head was so wrapped into the game, he forgot this was the deciding game and he still had two time outs left. We call over our highest ranked player. It didn't work out, but the opponent became careless and scratch 8 on his next turn.
 
JesseBfan said:
I am the most experienced and knowledgeable player on my team. Therefore I handle all of the advice giving for our timeouts. The skill level of my teammates varies a great deal yes but they are all veterans. They have all notched tons of victories over the years and of course losses too. All of us are very competitive and the league we play in is pretty competitive on a week by week basis.

My problem here is that despite my knowledge and personal abilities, we don't have a good percentage of execution of the plan/shot that I suggest during these timeouts. In fact our numbers are quite bad IMO. I take the blame for this as I feel like I could perhaps suggest something different(playing 8-ball on 9' tables). I'm a believer in the right shot being the right shot and I rarely find situations that I haven't been in or am comfortable with the execution so I struggle with giving another shot as a suggestion. I know to some of you this sounds dumb but it's something I want to improve for the sake of my teams future success so I'm putting it out there hoping to get some good feedback.

Thanks for your time
Click to expand...
some times the correct shot for you at your experience is not the best for someone at a lesser level. advice should be given to their skill level
 
Absolutely. Got to know your audience. I try to keep it basic


justadub said:
Let me share what ive seen in four plus years of APA.

Sometimes the best player doesn't give the best timeouts.

Sorry.

Here's what I think is the reason. The more experienced, more advanced players sometimes expect and assume too much, especially of the real beginners, the SL2's and 3's. And sometimes stuff you guys just take for granted gets left out.

That's not a knock on you. We have the same issue with the SL7 on my team. Most of the time, we don't have him give the time outs for our 2's and 3's, cuz he doesn't communicate with them at the level they need.

I am probably the fourth best player on our team, but I give the coaches 50% of the time to the 2's and 3's. And if I want or need a confirmation on what I want them to do, I will send the player to the other end of the table and bring our 7 up and check with him. That's rare, cuz I won't ask players to do something they aren't capable of, at least not very often.

Coaching is a skill, too. The best player is not always the best coach.
Click to expand...
 
I am in three leagues, only one is an APA team league with timeouts. (The other 2 are individual) I am not that good, just a 3 SL. As far as time outs are concerned I love when my opponents get a timeout as that means they are going to do something against their own instincts while almost always turn out bad. As for me, I will always take advise on playing and never get offended, even from strangers in a pool room, but I rarely like time outs in a match as it makes me do something against my instinct, even if it's the right thing.
My only exception is if I have to kick, I will always take advice where to shoot from some 3 cushion players.
 
There has been a LOT of great advice given here...but let me tell you a short story and then give you another piece of advice:

My wife and I played APA 9-ball on a team that had a SL9 on it. I'll refer to him as Kenny from here on. He too gave all the advice on timeouts. My wife, a SL3 at the time, receives 2 timeouts per game....and Kenny made damn sure he used them both in every game she played. Now, my wife has some pool knowledge but lacks in execution...so some of the timeouts Kenny would call were literally wasted...because my wife had already planned on doing the very thing Kenny called timeout to tell her to do.

In one game, my wife was shooting at a 9-ball that was nearly hanging in a corner pocket, cue ball down at the other end of the table. Kenny calls a timeout and wants her to shoot a length-of-table STOP SHOT. I asked my wife to step away from the table and told Kenny that she more than likely cannot execute a stop shot from that distance and that I would recommend her going rail first. I went and sat down...and he convinced her to try the stop shot. She made the 9-ball and of course, the cue ball slowly followed the 9 into the pocket. When my wife came and sat next to me, I told her I had recommended a rail first shot and she said that is what she as going to do before Kenny called the timeout.

So...what I am trying to convey here is: 1.) If a player on your team has a spouse/husband that KNOWS their game...it may be a good idea to let THAT person give your player the timeout. 2.) Don't always be the one to call the timeout. Let the players indecisiveness be an indicator of whether you should call the timeout. IOW...let the player decide more often if they want a timeout. The exception to this is if you see them about to do something that is absolutely crazy that you have to call one. I would always tell my lower skill-level players that unless I saw them about to do something absolutely crazy...I will leave it up to you to call a timeout. That way, they feel more in control and that way, in victory or defeat, they feel it was themselves and not an outside factor that decided the match.

Haven't you ever seen that situation where you felt like your player was playing the coach from the other team and NOT the player they were coaching???

Maniac
 
Jeff Rosen said:
I am in three leagues, only one is an APA team league with timeouts. (The other 2 are individual) I am not that good, just a 3 SL. As far as time outs are concerned I love when my opponents get a timeout as that means they are going to do something against their own instincts while almost always turn out bad. As for me, I will always take advise on playing and never get offended, even from strangers in a pool room, but I rarely like time outs in a match as it makes me do something against my instinct, even if it's the right thing.
My only exception is if I have to kick, I will always take advice where to shoot from some 3 cushion players.
Click to expand...

If you are getting coaching advise that goes against your instincts all the time, there are certainly some issues there.

I always ask my player what they want to do first. I will then tell them what I am seeing, (and why) if its different than the players idea, and ask them if they are comfortable with that shot. There isn't much sense in them shooting my shot if they go into it uncomfortably.

I will only rarely tell a player to not take a shot they were thinking of, and that's only if they are in real danger of the 8 going in, or some similar "really bad thing". They have to agree that the shot they are taking is the right one.

It helps if the player is open to getting help. There are players who shut down the moment you call a time out. They don't want it, and feel hurt that you think they need it, I suppose.
 
If I'm giving a timeout usually the first thing that I ask is, "What are you thinking about doing?" Then depending on what they say they'd do I'll either let them run with it or ask questions like "What about doing X instead?". Depending on the outcome I'll discuss with the player good/bad in their execution. Also, depending on their opponents skill level that changes the approach as well.

I like to get players to think more about the shots and strategies.

Most of the time when a timeout is called it's usually too late. The timeouts would have been more useful on the previous shot. In general, I prefer for players to ask when they need help, instead of jumping up and calling a timeout. Especially, in regular league play.
 
Now you ask

How often would the coaching time out have been more fruitful if called for one shot before this one?

Our team has tried the concept of calling a time out once down to the last three. It has helped. Not 100%, but helpful.

In general, when asked to coach, I want to hear what the player wants to do..since that is what he is most comfortable with. Most often I'll agree. It can only turn out good or bad, either result can be a learning opportunity.

Sometimes, after the match, we will brainstorm (a light drizzle) as a team, and try other options suggested by each. Here, differences in experience and confidence in executing the shot, often result in varying opinions.

When you as a coach start having to try to communicate speed and spin, and it goes wrong...it was the wrong approach. Again.:eek:
 
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Maniac said:
There has been a LOT of great advice given here...but let me tell you a short story and then give you another piece of advice:

My wife and I played APA 9-ball on a team that had a SL9 on it. I'll refer to him as Kenny from here on. He too gave all the advice on timeouts. My wife, a SL3 at the time, receives 2 timeouts per game....and Kenny made damn sure he used them both in every game she played. Now, my wife has some pool knowledge but lacks in execution...so some of the timeouts Kenny would call were literally wasted...because my wife had already planned on doing the very thing Kenny called timeout to tell her to do.

In one game, my wife was shooting at a 9-ball that was nearly hanging in a corner pocket, cue ball down at the other end of the table. Kenny calls a timeout and wants her to shoot a length-of-table STOP SHOT. I asked my wife to step away from the table and told Kenny that she more than likely cannot execute a stop shot from that distance and that I would recommend her going rail first. I went and sat down...and he convinced her to try the stop shot. She made the 9-ball and of course, the cue ball slowly followed the 9 into the pocket. When my wife came and sat next to me, I told her I had recommended a rail first shot and she said that is what she as going to do before Kenny called the timeout.

So...what I am trying to convey here is: 1.) If a player on your team has a spouse/husband that KNOWS their game...it may be a good idea to let THAT person give your player the timeout. 2.) Don't always be the one to call the timeout. Let the players indecisiveness be an indicator of whether you should call the timeout. IOW...let the player decide more often if they want a timeout. The exception to this is if you see them about to do something that is absolutely crazy that you have to call one. I would always tell my lower skill-level players that unless I saw them about to do something absolutely crazy...I will leave it up to you to call a timeout. That way, they feel more in control and that way, in victory or defeat, they feel it was themselves and not an outside factor that decided the match.

Haven't you ever seen that situation where you felt like your player was playing the coach from the other team and NOT the player they were coaching???

Maniac
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Sounds like Kenny is the poster child for this thread. :p

To your point about spouses (and significant others) giving the time outs, you are right. And sometimes you are wrong, too.

I have seen plenty of examples where a player doesnt take coaching well from their significant other. The best player in our area can't effectively coach his girlfriend, but coaches everyone else very well. His girlfriend does well with coaches from other players. Sometimes it gets taken personally, even tho its not intended that way. Relationships are funny...

I would NEVER attempt to coach my wife in any competitive outing (she doesn't play pool, tho teaching her golf has been discussed, and refused on my part) as I know it wouldn't work out.

That having been said, I've seen many examples where the spouse does give better timeouts, too. It just isn't always the best choice :p
 
justadub said:
Relationships are funny...

I would NEVER attempt to coach my wife in any competitive outing (she doesn't play pool, tho teaching her golf has been discussed, and refused on my part) as I know it wouldn't work out.

That having been said, I've seen many examples where the spouse does give better timeouts, too. It just isn't always the best choice :p
Click to expand...

Yeah...I guess I shouldn't assume everybody has the type of marriage/relationship that my wife and I do. She has always preferred me to give her a timeout...because for one thing, she knows I know her limitations...and for another, I don't over-explain what she needs to do. I just walk to the table, show her what she needs to know (English, speed, preferred cue ball placement for the next shot, etc.) and walk away and let her rip. She don't want no 3 1/2 minute presentation on the 4 different ways to shoot the shot....just for me to tell her what to do, and let her do it.

I think I have a knack for teaching/coaching skills, as over the course of years of league play I have had many players on my teams that told me specifically that they wanted me to be the one to give them their timeouts.

And...like other posters have said...I always ask the person that I give a timeout to what they are thinking before I offer them any options. But, I always let them choose what option they want to take before I give them any specifics.

Also...I have always let my lesser skilled teammates know that they may call a timeout on me if they think I am totally missing something. I think it gives them a bit of a feeling of self-worth...but I rarely ever had one call a timeout on me.

This has been a good thread...I would like to hear some more opinions though.

Maniac
 
you got good advice in all the above posts.
the only thing I could add is this.

When I played for the one and a half yrs apa:
I might tell my player to hit it soft.
I know what soft is, but my players sure didn't. none of them. Didn't have a clue actually.

If you are going to use the words soft or hard or medium,

set up some shots in practice and show them what soft really is. What it feels like.
what medium really means.
have them hit it like you.
now they know what soft means. how it feels to "hit it soft"
or medium,
they already know hard...
get them to learn the language and understand what you are saying.
steven
 
Thanks everyone.

I've taken away a lot from this thread and am going to reference it often. You guys have given me a bunch of good guidelines to consider.
 
I get frustrated with timeouts as well. I try to let people shoot as much as possible so that they're not getting frustrated, but when they want a timeout it's when they're hooked. My most effective timeouts have been when I've suggested a shot, but then also emphasized the fundamentals of the stroke right before they take the shot. Too many times I see a SL3 cueing up a shot and then when they pull the trigger, they hit a totally different part of the cue ball that they were aiming at.
 
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