Pool Players Organization

[unknownpro]

For a player's organization to be successful, it needs to be limited to basic objectives. It should always be free to all interested parties. It should control its own rankings by setting up a points formula that will work for any added money open tournaments and apply that formula to all tournaments that meet basic qualifications.

A player's organization should not attempt to police players with rules of conduct or dress. And it should not play favorites among tournaments, tours, or sponsors.

Any money made by the organization should be paid out to all participants. For instance, players playing in sanctioned events could recieve stock for each tournament entry fee paid.

Simply by maintaining their own rankings they would have power and potential for sponsorship and profits. The only hard part, imo, is to balance the interests of all levels of players so that as many as possible can be involved.

And a player's organization should not run tours or tournaments.

Goals of increasing prize money, lowering entry fees, lengthening races, tightening pockets, or whatever is deemed beneficial could be encouraged by the points formula.

 

[Roger Long]

Until the players AND promoters get together and come up with a way to increase pool's entertainment value, there is no "power" to be had by anyone. Except to ourselves (the already addicted) pool is not an attractive spectator sport. And without very large audiences (non-participatory people who can be influenced through the players' events to purchase products and services) we have nothing with which to attract sponsors and advertisers. I believe this is more than just my opinion; I believe it is a hard reality.

Roger

 

[JAM]

Today, professional pool is a "rich man's high." Unless you are well funded, it is quite difficult to follow the professional tournament trail.

Professional pool in the United States is a multi-faceted problem. Money is the biggest stop sign not only for aspiring pro players, but the lack thereof is a problem for independent promoters and even industry members. Pool in the United States just is not popular when compared to NFL, NBA, PGA, MLB, tennis, et cetera.

A transparent organization is key, but if there his no tour for the organization members to compete in, what good is the organization? It is difficult to piggy-back a tour off of independent promoter events.

The fan base for pool in the United States is awful. Just go to the U.S. Open and check out the audience for this prestigious event which always seems to attract the best players from around the world. The majority of the audience consists of players, players' friends, players' families, and local pool enthusiasts. There are some diehard fans like myself that might travel to see a pro tournament, but these fans are not very plentiful. There certainly aren't enough of them for independent promoters to make a profit at the gate.

The independent promoter or any promoter for that matter has huge expenses to put on a tournament. Staff have to be present. I cannot imagine what Allen Hopkins' total pay is for the Valley Forge SBE, but it must be hefty. You need competent tournament directors and, hopefully, qualified referees. Then there is the rent of the venue site itself. To tell you the truth, I don't see how any of them turn a profit.

Without tournaments or a tour, if you will, what good is the organization? This could be a "chicken and an egg"-type issue. I am not sure.

I do know this. The only professional pool players I know who did make money on pool are those who left the tournament scene altogether and pursued other pool-related activities, like Hopkins and Sigel. They saw the writing on the wall. Without a legitimate tour, an organization is going to encounter problems sustaining itself, whether the players are united together or not.

JAM

 

[Fragged]

Today, professional pool is a "rich man's high." Unless you are well funded, it is quite difficult to follow the professional tournament trail.

Professional pool in the United States is a multi-faceted problem. Money is the biggest stop sign not only for aspiring pro players, but the lack thereof is a problem for independent promoters and even industry members. Pool in the United States just is not popular when compared to NFL, NBA, PGA, MLB, tennis, et cetera.

A transparent organization is key, but if there his no tour for the organization members to compete in, what good is the organization? It is difficult to piggy-back a tour off of independent promoter events.

The fan base for pool in the United States is awful. Just go to the U.S. Open and check out the audience for this prestigious event which always seems to attract the best players from around the world. The majority of the audience consists of players, players' friends, players' families, and local pool enthusiasts. There are some diehard fans like myself that might travel to see a pro tournament, but these fans are not very plentiful. There certainly aren't enough of them for independent promoters to make a profit at the gate.

The independent promoter or any promoter for that matter has huge expenses to put on a tournament. Staff have to be present. I cannot imagine what Allen Hopkins' total pay is for the Valley Forge SBE, but it must be hefty. You need competent tournament directors and, hopefully, qualified referees. Then there is the rent of the venue site itself. To tell you the truth, I don't see how any of them turn a profit.

Without tournaments or a tour, if you will, what good is the organization? This could be a "chicken and an egg"-type issue. I am not sure.

I do know this. The only professional pool players I know who did make money on pool are those who left the tournament scene altogether and pursued other pool-related activities, like Hopkins and Sigel. They saw the writing on the wall. Without a legitimate tour, an organization is going to encounter problems sustaining itself, whether the players are united together or not.

JAM

I know a few people who work the expo and they are not paid that well, maybe $75-100/day . Some just want to be "involved" and perceive it as prestigious.

The SBE takes in by my estimation $40K a day in admissions and another 100K overall in Booth charges. Now add in $15 nite from each hotel room in kickbacks (legal), food, tournament 'cuts' and a bunch of other income Ops and i have Allen/Dawn walking away with $ 150-200k profit every year.

I dont see how a lot of tournaments make anything but i see how the SBE does though most of the above is just a guesstimate.

 

[JAM]

I know a few people who work the expo and they are not paid that well, maybe $75-100/day . Some just want to be "involved" and perceive it as prestigious.

The SBE takes in by my estimation $40K a day in admissions and another 100K overall in Booth charges. Now add in $15 nite from each hotel room in kickbacks (legal), food, tournament 'cuts' and a bunch of other income Ops and i have Allen/Dawn walking away with $ 150-200k profit every year.

I dont see how a lot of tournaments make anything but i see how the SBE does though most of the above is just a guesstimate.

I have always admired Allen Hopkins as a person. How fortunate he was to be able to make a living in pool, a passion he has enjoyed since he was a young boy.

The SBE at Valley Forge is a huge success.

What is interesting to note here is that it is not the pro event that makes the SBE a success. It is the social shooters, league players, and the ball bangers that make it a huge hit. The vendors attract pool enthusiasts and fans to check out their wares.

Allen recognizes where the popularity of pool lies in the United States. I wish it was professional pool, but I just don't see it ever happening, at least in my lifetime. I hope I am wrong.

BTW, every time I have ever been at a restaurant eating dinner or at a bar inside a casino when Allen was present, he always picks up the tab. That is just the kind if guy he is.

I am so thrilled that is he finally getting his propers by being inducted into the BCA's Hall of Fame. It won't put any money in his pocket, as it doesn't to any of the other legends of the sport who are already in there, but it's about damn time.

JAM

 

[Fragged]

Quote Jam
BTW, every time I have ever been at a restaurant eating dinner or at a bar inside a casino when Allen was present, he always picks up the tab. That is just the kind if guy he is.
End quote


Fer sure-Opposites attract you know.

 

[JAM]

Quote Jam
BTW, every time I have ever been at a restaurant eating dinner or at a bar inside a casino when Allen was present, he always picks up the tab. That is just the kind if guy he is.
End quote


Fer sure-Opposites attract you know.

Would you please elaborate? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "opposites attract."

JAM

 

[frankwhite]

Quote Jam
BTW, every time I have ever been at a restaurant eating dinner or at a bar inside a casino when Allen was present, he always picks up the tab. That is just the kind if guy he is.
End quote


Fer sure-Opposites attract you know.

I will have to second that......Allen is forever picking up the tab, at least when we go out he does. He was comming up North Jersey to play for some stakes called me told me to meet him at the poolhall then were gonna go out. I told him, "NO". I told him I will not meet you this time if you pay, he said OK, OK, you got me its on you Frankie tonite. Yeaaaa rite, he still made sure it was paid by him. Great guy that Hoppy.

 

[ScottW]

A player's organization should not attempt to police players with rules of conduct or dress. And it should not play favorites among tournaments, tours, or sponsors.

I ask, why not? This seems like a good thing for such an organization to do, IMHO.

This sort of organization would be primarily looking after the players' interests, true - and part of that is ensuring that there are events for them to play in, events that are numerous enough and funded well enough that the players can attempt to make a "real living" at playing pool.

And one thing that would help increase the number and funding of such events, from the promoters' standpoint (and those promoters' funders and sponsors) would be more professionalism, across the board, demostrated by the players themselves. Conduct and dress are part of that.

It may be something for a players' organization to take on gradually, so as not to cause unrest, etc. - but I do think it's something such an organization should take on.

 

[ironman]

Until the players AND promoters get together and come up with a way to increase pool's entertainment value, there is no "power" to be had by anyone. Except to ourselves (the already addicted) pool is not an attractive spectator sport. And without very large audiences (non-participatory people who can be influenced through the players' events to purchase products and services) we have nothing with which to attract sponsors and advertisers. I believe this is more than just my opinion; I believe it is a hard reality.

Roger

Avery harsh reality, but, A reality indeed.

 

[ironman]

I have always admired Allen Hopkins as a person. How fortunate he was to be able to make a living in pool, a passion he has enjoyed since he was a young boy.

The SBE at Valley Forge is a huge success.

What is interesting to note here is that it is not the pro event that makes the SBE a success. It is the social shooters, league players, and the ball bangers that make it a huge hit. The vendors attract pool enthusiasts and fans to check out their wares.

Allen recognizes where the popularity of pool lies in the United States. I wish it was professional pool, but I just don't see it ever happening, at least in my lifetime. I hope I am wrong.

BTW, every time I have ever been at a restaurant eating dinner or at a bar inside a casino when Allen was present, he always picks up the tab. That is just the kind if guy he is.

I am so thrilled that is he finally getting his propers by being inducted into the BCA's Hall of Fame. It won't put any money in his pocket, as it doesn't to any of the other legends of the sport who are already in there, but it's about damn time.

JAM

Most vendors don't even like working on the pro's cues. They want it done because of the, 'don't you know who I am attitude" and act as though they are doing someone a favor.

 

[JAM]

Avery harsh reality, but, A reality indeed.

I agree wholeheartedly, though I wish things were different.

For professional players, the expenses do far outweigh the tournament payouts. There is no way to get around it.

The pool culture in the United States is so small compared to other sports cultures.

Gerry Watson had it right when he moved from Canada to Philippines. Allen Hopkins got it right when he figured out a way to make money in pool away from the tournament trail.

Don't get me wrong. I love pool and enjoy going to tournaments, but from here on in, every single tournament I go to will be for funsies. Winning isn't going to be the end-all/be-all for me anymore. There is no future in pool for tournament soldiers, unless you are sponsored. How many players in the United States are sponsored?

What good is a pool organization with no self-sustaining tour? Therein lies the problem.

JAM

 

[JAM]

Most vendors don't even like working on the pro's cues. They want it done because of the, 'don't you know who I am attitude" and act as though they are doing someone a favor.

I will say this about American cuemakers. They seem to be very supportive of professional players. I know of quite a few pro players who have been gifted with custom-made cues worth thousands of dollars. Some cuemakers are very generous like that.

Keith has been very fortunate to own a custom-made Jack Madden cue. There will NEVER be another one like it, and he really, realll loves the way it hits. Jack made this cue for Keith out of the kindness of his heart, worked on it for months, and believe me, it's a real beauty. It not only looks good, but the cue is a weapon of mass destruction on a field of green.

American cuemakers can only give so much of themselves, though. They're hurting in this economy as well. That is why Scruggs and Black Boar do the majority of their business overseas where there is a great market for American cues. They appreciate these cues overseas.

Here in America, since the majority of players are recreational and not aspiring pros, production cues sell like hotcakes.

JAM

 

[ScottW]

Don't get me wrong. I love pool and enjoy going to tournaments, but from here on in, every single tournament I go to will be for funsies. Winning isn't going to be the end-all/be-all for me anymore. There is no future in pool for tournament soldiers, unless you are sponsored. How many players in the United States are sponsored?

Being a self-professed railbird, isn't "going to tournaments for funsies" pretty much what you do? Or do you compete yourself, at what you consider a "tournament soldier" level?

 

[JAM]

Being a self-professed railbird, isn't "going to tournaments for funsies" pretty much what you do? Or do you compete yourself, at what you consider a "tournament soldier" level?

........................
JAM

 

[JAM]

Being a self-professed railbird, isn't "going to tournaments for funsies" pretty much what you do? Or do you compete yourself, at what you consider a "tournament soldier" level?

Just in case you didn't know, ScottW, my boyfriend is a pool player who attends professional tournaments. We go together!

Does this help you to understand what I mean better?

JAM

 

[ScottW]

Next? Please feel free to comment about my posts again. I will be happy to clarify my words after they are dissected. I'm getting pretty good at it.

Defensive, as expected.

I was simply asking questions, as I don't know you at all aside from your posts here.

You still didn't answer my question on whether you play in these tournaments or not.

Edit: You posted again while I was composing this note. Yes, I'm fully aware of your relationship with Keith. I asked if you competed because with regards to that, in your post earlier, it could be read either way (you yourself competing, or referring to Keith competing).

 

[JAM]

Defensive, as expected.

Sarcastic, as expected.

I was simply asking questions, as I don't know you at all aside from your posts here.

You still didn't answer my question on whether you play in these tournaments or not.

I live with a pool player named Keith McCready.

When we attend pool tournaments, the costs are extremely high.

We share the costs of pool tournaments. He plays in them. I drive the car and make all of the logistical arrangements for each tournament we attend.

We both incur costs attending the pool tournaments, me as a railbird and Keith as a pool player. We travel together.

Does this help explain it better?

JAM

 

[ScottW]

Sarcastic, as expected.

Oooh, you wound me, madam. Ow.

I live with a pool player named Keith McCready.

When we attend pool tournaments, the costs are extremely high.

We share the costs of pool tournaments. He plays in them. I drive the car and make all of the logistical arrangements for each tournament we attend.

We both incur costs attending the pool tournaments, me as a railbird and Keith as a pool player. We travel together.

Does this help explain it better?

Closer, yes. Though you could have simply said "No, I don't compete myself" and that would have done the job. Simple question, simple answer.

 

[JAM]

Oooh, you wound me, madam. Ow.



Closer, yes. Though you could have simply said "No, I don't compete myself" and that would have done the job. Simple question, simple answer.

Since I happen to know that you are well aware I do not play pool, that Keith McCready is my boyfriend, a pool player who does play pool, I do recognize your comments for what they were. Just another person on this forum who gets their rocks off being mean-spirited.

That's okay. I've seen you post directly to me before in a negative manner. I've got you pegged and am prepared for whatever flies off of your fingertips. No big deal to me, friend.

Is that response simple enough for you? What can you dissect from my words now?

JAM