Pool Secrets NOT revealed...(has this ever happened to you?)

[Jude Rosenstock]

A lot of what's been said is top notch. For me, I was sort of a late-bloomer. For YEARS I played around B-speed only to find myself obliterating the B-field one day. It literally happened in the span of a year. Afterward, when my ranking was finally realized, people were asking me left and right how I did it. The truth is, it boiled down to two aspects - planning and execution.

You first have to devise a plan and that plan should be VERY specific. You obviously want to pocket the ball but where do you want the cue ball to go? If you're going to hit a couple of rails, where do you want to contact the first rail? What kind of angle do you plan on getting for the next ball? Is that the correct way to get that angle or is there a better way to go?

Then, you have to actually do it. So many times, I see reasonably good amateurs miss routine shots. In fact, I see it happen with some of my region's top players. You have to devote the same level of concentration for every shot no matter how likely you are to make the ball. A shot you should make all the time has to translate into a shot you actually do make all the time. When you do miss something you shouldn't, you have to figure out why. That's a hard question because the reasons are aplenty. Try finding a friend who is good enough to figure out what might be wrong and if you don't have one, find an instructor. If all else fails, get a video and upload it here. There are plenty that can help you on this forum.

 

[Cornerman]

So I'm practicing, setting up drills and shots from a book, when one of the strongest players in my pool hall comes over and says: "Hey, let me give you some advice." Then he pauses. And I'm waiting on tenterhooks, thinking: Is he gonna tell me how to do 3-cushion kick shots? A Jump-draw? An eight-ball break that'll pocket 4 balls every time? How to calculate bank shots like a pro? How to know for certain when to shoot at 7:38 vs. 3:15 on the CB? Please God YES!

Naaah.

He has me shoot two ridiculously easy shots and says: "You need to keep your head down."

Then walks away.

Okay, we all have our bad habits. But seriously???

I mean that's like Stephen King spotting a struggling writer in a coffee shop and then coming over and saying: "Let me give you some advice." Struggling writer, wide-eyed, not even daring to swallow the Cappuccino that's scalding the inside of his mouth, waits, thinking King will tell him how to organize a plot, create riveting characters, when to use a mixed metaphor, why sometimes you have to avoid alliterations, etc, etc...

NO.

Instead..

King says: "You need to type more softly."

Then walks away.

Ok, like, if I ever become a really good player I never gonna do that. :indecisive:

PS -- I think really good players have forgotten (or perhaps never knew!) what it's like to be someone who's struggling to learn the finer points of the game. It's like their knowledge has become so instinctive that they can't communicate it, hence the best thing they can say is something like: "Don't use a warped cue." Or "Keep your head down." Or the perennial favorite: "Don't miss."

PPS -- Imagine Michael Phelps trying to teach swimming. Novice swimmer: "How do I swim like you?" Phelps: "Swim fast."

PPPS -- Lest anyone think the guy was jerking me around -- he wasn't. He was sincere about helping me out. It's just that the wide gap between where he is and where I am seems to create a language barrier. haha.

Wannabe pool players are dickheads.

So this reminds of that Ray Guy (one of the NFL's greatest punters) story. A kid around 10 years old wants to start learning how to punt so he can become an NFL punter. Guy's response:

"It's too late" (meaning at the professional level, you better have punting the football 20 yards when you were like three years old).

Here's my magic secret. Stop listening to dickheads. Including me.

Freddie <~~~ no secrets

 

[CurvedCue]

Kim Davenport helped me out once by giving me this same advice, but instead of being disappointed - I took it to heart. I went from a huge slump to suddenly playing the best pool of my life just from something simple like keeping my head down.

Really? So you didn't even have to bother with learning about inside or running English or the different effects of High Right vs. Low Left or Punch Stroke or Power Draw or the 30-degree rule or anything else remotely related to making shots?

You just kept you head down and magically everything came together?

Okay, I'm being facetious.

My point being -- it's great to know the fundamentals: how to pick a good house cue, chalk your tip, keep a nickle radius, etc, etc etc.

Here's the thing for me though: I can look really good at the table -- great bridge, follow through, textbook stance. But that's it!

Basically I look good losing.

Meanwhile drunk guys with horrible stances, deformed bridges, heads popping up, tongues wagging, eyes hanging out of their heads, one-legged, no-legged, etc. are beating me senseless on league nights

Clearly, having a perfect bridge, etc, is not enough.

Be nice to know some of the finer points like why High Right didn't work on a particular cut, resulting in a very bad position and an eventual loss.

I'm just sayin'.

PEACE!

PS -- Some people seem to think I need to be beholden to this strong player who told me to keep my head down. Like worship the ground he walks on or something. Not gonna happen. Hey, I dispense advice to people all the time: "Don't park there you're gonna get a ticket," "Beer's a lot cheaper at that place," etc. And I don't expect people to treat me like a God for it. Damn, it ain't like a life was saved from a burning wreck or something. I think we need some perspective here. PEACE!!!!

 

[Pidge]

Really? So you didn't even have to bother with learning about inside or running English or the different effects of High Right vs. Low Left or Punch Stroke or Power Draw or the 30-degree rule or anything else remotely related to making shots?

You just kept you head down and magically everything came together?

Okay, I'm being facetious.

My point being -- it's great to know the fundamentals: how to pick a good house cue, chalk your tip, keep a nickle radius, etc, etc etc.

Here's the thing for me though: I can look really good at the table -- great bridge, follow through, textbook stance. But that's it!

Basically I look good losing.

Meanwhile drunk guys with horrible stances, deformed bridges, heads popping up, tongues wagging, eyes hanging out of their heads, one-legged, no-legged, etc. are beating me senseless on league nights

Clearly, having a perfect bridge, etc, is not enough.

Be nice to know some of the finer points like why High Right didn't work on a particular cut, resulting in a very bad position and an eventual loss.

I'm just sayin'.

PEACE!

PS -- Some people seem to think I need to be beholden to this strong player who told me to keep my head down. Like worship the ground he walks on or something. Not gonna happen. Hey, I dispense advice to people all the time: "Don't park there you're gonna get a ticket," "Beer's a lot cheaper at that place," etc. And I don't expect people to treat me like a God for it. Damn, it ain't like a life was saved from a burning wreck or something. I think we need some perspective here. PEACE!!!!

You would look good if you didn't move your head so friggin' much! I kid.

So the "secrets" you are thriving for are more to do with positional play and physics rather than fundamental? I can't recommend Dr Daves videos and website enough. He covers everything physics in pool and if you let it, it can take over your life for a few weeks just wading through the content of his site.

I see you referencing the use of English a lot, and you did it in this post. What do you mean by high right didn't work for this type of shot? You missed? You didn't get position how you expected? If you missed then you aren't the only one to ever miss using English. It can be quite hard to judge, and adding vertical spin with side spin makes the job harder. If you didn't get the position you wanted then it could be you didn't use enough or too much English for the path you wanted the CB to take. Knowing how the CB reacts of a rail with English is best learned from experience. If you aren't experienced at the game then you have no chance of predicting any path the CB should take.

Meanwhile these drunk guys that have been stuck in league at the same ranking for the past 3 decades are decent at using English and have hit close to a million balls so they know how the white is going to come off the rail.

I can't stress enough how beneficial something like keeping your head still is unless in 30 years time you want to be one of the drunks in your league. You can work on fundamentals, and at the same time practice using side spin. It doesn't have to be just hitting the white up and down table. Once you can hit 30 half table draw shots with no unintentional side spin and draw the white back to your tip you can forget about working on your fundamentals. You have a straighter than straight stroke.

 

[Pre-Flag Master]

I think all that is being said here - from most of us anyway - is don't be disappointed with the advice you got. It wasn't of the type that you were hoping for, but that's not his fault, he didn't know the categories of tips you've been thirsting for recently. He was just trying to help, he saw something, and he tried to help.

I think the advice most of us are trying to give you now is to take this as a positive thing - not something to be disappointed in - that's all. It's a mind set thing.

As for the technical details you crave, that will come. You will seek this info out and you will find it. Sometimes you get this from people who just offer it up. But most the time it's because you make the effort to find it yourself - reading, watching videos, asking the right questions of knowledgeable people, etc.

It seems that you are a student of the game, so I have no doubt that these things will come to you. But there are a lot of specific technical details and it takes time.

EDIT: I suggest 2 books to begin with: Phil Capelle's "Play Your Best Pool" and Ray Martin's "99 Critical Shots".

Fatz

 

[prewarhero]

OP- none of your analogies are applicable. I had to lose a lot of games to the rooms top player before he "got my head on straight". What did that invaluable and necessary piece of advice cost you? It is not funny, btw. It is a HUGE fundamental issue. Huge!

The ultimate goal of fundamentals is to deliver an efficient consistent straight stroke (under pressure to be sure). There are two issues with head movement, both very different. There is head movement when you get down on the shot and sight between CB and OB and back and forth. Many people move their head once they are down to re-aim. However, doing this provides you an inaccurate picture of the shot.
Then there is getting up on the shot. It is hard to continue your stroke straight if you are moving upwards.

That being said, those two are movements are some of the biggest fundamental killers, at least that has been true to me. Long hard shots in pressure situations no longer make me nervous. I know I am going to line up and shoot straight. Man how cool is that? Finally!

just my 2 cents

 

[gunzby]

I did something like that to someone. He asked me when I was going to show him some things. I told him that I would tell him the only thing he needs to know. His eyes got sparkly anticipating the Jedi secret and soon dimmed as I said "don't miss".

 

[naji]

Sounds to me like you need to work on keeping your head down. The difference between weak and great players is primarily the better player can hit the cue ball where they want reliably and at the speed they want. When you can do that then you can play the rest of the game.

I have taken lessons from all of tyhe big name teachers Bresieth,Wilson, Lee, Shuffett just to mention a few they all teach the same thing he who controls the tip controls the game.

Try this take all of the balls to one end of the table. Set them up one att a time in the same place on the head string. Shoot the ball into the fact corner pocket. While doing this step back between shots, focus on your stance and bridge, your stroke your tip at adress, feel your backswing and transition stroke freeze check your tip location at finish before you get up.

Stay down, Keep your head down, Check your fundamentals on each ball. Do this 15, 30, 45 times more as you get better. You might say why do this why not use a cue ball.

Because you are distracted by making balls when you add a a cue ball to the mix. Break the game down into small piecec. Pay attention. When you do this you will notice little things you do or dont do on shots. The best players take out all of the extra stuff.

There is no secret just hard work required. When you see a champ running out like water looking so effortless, believe me they are working and relying on lots of past work.

Good luck play hard



Now we know who has all the secrets

Why keep head down, do you keep head down during 9 ball break??

 

[Neil]

Why keep head down, do you keep head down during 9 ball break??

I'm disappointed you even went there. So, you don't understand the difference between a co-ordinated head raising during the break and a nervous twitch head raising during a routine shot?

 

[Petros Andrikop]

In every sport what differentiates pro players than the rest is, among other things, their ability to perform the fundamentals of the sport better, with exceptions confirming this standard case.
Personal style, which is basically a combination of personal preference and body characteristics does not affect that.
Today more than ever every player having the necessary amount of talent is able to access almost every information needed in order to study pool in depth.
The whole process comes to a point where complex knowledge acquired is "paradoxically" used to simplify things, one of those things that pros also do better than the rest of us.
The great Grady Mathews pointed out: "Look for the simple solution, it's usually there".
After having enough tournament experience one realizes that most matches are won by doing well enough the things that are "supposed" to be done, only on a few occasions the "extra" steps are needed, mostly in high level of competition.
Pros are beautiful to watch not only for their ability to execute shots that most other players can't, but also because they play the game over a solid fundamental base, making things in such a "complete" way that is great to see anytime..

 

[backplaying]

If he came up to you an said you need to keep your head down, why are you taking offense to that. He probably saw you lifting your head while you thought it was staying down. Lots of time someone else can see a basic flaw when you can't.---Smitty

I had a bad habit of coming off the shot.. I use to tell anyone running with me, if they noticed me moving on the shot to let me know. I was playing someone in New Orleans once and was playing bad, when a young man came over and said Jim Brock sent me over here to tell you that are moving your head on the shot. I played good the rest of the set. He gave you very good advice.

 

[336Robin]

What do u think?

Thanks, Robin. This is what I meant.

In fact, at first, I thought the guy was messing with me, because he was so cavalier about it. I got red-faced thinking the whole pool hall was watching and laughing: "Look at that idiot. He thinks he's gonna get some serious knowledge." But then I realized the guy was sincere. It was just his way of communicating.

CurvedCue,

So given the comments, what do you think your problem is? and what secret do you want to know?

 

[CurvedCue]

CurvedCue,

So given the comments, what do you think your problem is? and what secret do you want to know?

Robin, it's not really "secrets" per se.

I've posted some issues for me in the past.

I'll just pm you sometime, Robin, if that's okay.

BTW, lest anyone continues to think I'm some ingrate. You all should know that I thanked the guy and was not at all flippant Don't know why people got the idea I acted like some jerk. Jeez! :sorry: I'm not like that!

 

[naji]

I'm disappointed you even went there. So, you don't understand the difference between a co-ordinated head raising during the break and a nervous twitch head raising during a routine shot?

Thanks Neil, you hit it right on the nail, coordinated head rise vs nervous twitch, my question and point is when do the nervous twitch happen, it is impossible to happen before the tip leave the CB, our brain is really slow compared to the separation time between tip and CB. Therefore it is a reaction not action. I am searching to find out which pro said "it is impossible to lift your head if you follow through" could be Grady, Billy I, and follow through is critical with most shots. Pool is really amazing sport, so many variables the casual players will take years to figure, because they concentrate on variable that in reality does not effect how they shoot for years, come to find out they revise their strong belief, and start with another theory, and so on, until finally something starts to work. This is why 99% of players not consistent, they shoot good today and bad the other day, or shoot great in practice and all of a sudden cannot shoot a lick in a game. This head rising is one of those falls theories, IMO. I am not saying raise your head when you shoot, no, just concentrate on following through and all will fall in place automatically one less step to keep track of.

 

[Petros Andrikop]

The head lift starts before cue release-follow through, results are almost always catastrophical.
There are exceptions where any kind of body language is subconsciously incorporated into a player's stroke, rarley seen in high level, only to confirm the standard case.

 

[elvicash]

Be nice to know some of the finer points like why High Right didn't work on a particular cut, resulting in a very bad position and an eventual loss.

So having not been there to see the shot and the result I would suggest the following.actually happened

You set up for high right, however when you stroked the shot you hit somewhere on the cue ball other than high right.

Why you might ask

You were not in control of the tip, might be because you bounced your head up and probably dropped your elbow early, you might have squeezed the cue as you pulled the trigger or flinched or you might of even raised your bridge hand early.

Here is the secret, You can share it with others if you want.

Look and see what is in front of you you might have to walk around the table some if so not to close to the table.
Make a distinct plan
Have perfect fundamentals
Set up the same for every shot from behind the cue ball do not approach shot from the side
Don't crowd the shot line as you get into your stance, you need clearance
Don't waggle cue or practice stroke till you created and checked your solid stance
Consistent number of practice strokes
Solid but light grip
Stop the cue to check aim
Focus on the object ball
Pull the cue back slow
Slight but almost imperceptible pause at the back
Stroke through the cue ball
Watch the object ball as it enters the pocket (use eyes not head movement)
Check your tip
Now get up and review the shot
Forget last shot
Repeat process

 

[Neil]

Thanks Neil, you hit it right on the nail, coordinated head rise vs nervous twitch, my question and point is when do the nervous twitch happen, it is impossible to happen before the tip leave the CB, our brain is really slow compared to the separation time between tip and CB. Therefore it is a reaction not action. I am searching to find out which pro said "it is impossible to lift your head if you follow through" could be Grady, Billy I, and follow through is critical with most shots. Pool is really amazing sport, so many variables the casual players will take years to figure, because they concentrate on variable that in reality does not effect how they shoot for years, come to find out they revise their strong belief, and start with another theory, and so on, until finally something starts to work. This is why 99% of players not consistent, they shoot good today and bad the other day, or shoot great in practice and all of a sudden cannot shoot a lick in a game. This head rising is one of those falls theories, IMO. I am not saying raise your head when you shoot, no, just concentrate on following through and all will fall in place automatically one less step to keep track of.

Naji, it's VERY possible to raise the head before contact. Yes, technically you are correct, you can't start to raise your head at contact and then have it raised up before contact ends. But, no one was saying that anyways.

As to what pro said that you can't raise up if you followthrough all the way, I don't know who it was, but he was wrong too. The break shot proves that.

I would say most all of the head raising by amateurs is due to one thing- nervous anticipation on whether or not the ball will drop. They raise up to get a better view. And, almost all do it as soon as they start the stroke.

When you do it before contact, you are almost guaranteed that you will not hit the cb where you intend to hit it. And, this game is all about precision. So, raising up your head does nothing but hold you back and make the game much, much, more difficult.

 

[Sloppy Pockets]

So I'm practicing, setting up drills and shots from a book, when one of the strongest players in my pool hall comes over and says: "Hey, let me give you some advice." Then he pauses. And I'm waiting on tenterhooks, thinking: Is he gonna tell me how to do 3-cushion kick shots? A Jump-draw? An eight-ball break that'll pocket 4 balls every time? How to calculate bank shots like a pro? How to know for certain when to shoot at 7:38 vs. 3:15 on the CB? Please God YES!

Naaah.

He has me shoot two ridiculously easy shots and says: "You need to keep your head down."

Then walks away.

Okay, we all have our bad habits. But seriously???

I mean that's like Stephen King spotting a struggling writer in a coffee shop and then coming over and saying: "Let me give you some advice." Struggling writer, wide-eyed, not even daring to swallow the Cappuccino that's scalding the inside of his mouth, waits, thinking King will tell him how to organize a plot, create riveting characters, when to use a mixed metaphor, why sometimes you have to avoid alliterations, etc, etc...

NO.

Instead..

King says: "You need to type more softly."

Then walks away.

Ok, like, if I ever become a really good player I never gonna do that. :indecisive:

PS -- I think really good players have forgotten (or perhaps never knew!) what it's like to be someone who's struggling to learn the finer points of the game. It's like their knowledge has become so instinctive that they can't communicate it, hence the best thing they can say is something like: "Don't use a warped cue." Or "Keep your head down." Or the perennial favorite: "Don't miss."

PPS -- Imagine Michael Phelps trying to teach swimming. Novice swimmer: "How do I swim like you?" Phelps: "Swim fast."

PPPS -- Lest anyone think the guy was jerking me around -- he wasn't. He was sincere about helping me out. It's just that the wide gap between where he is and where I am seems to create a language barrier. haha.

Ha, ha! This is funny stuff! I don't know why some folks are giving you a hard time over what is obviously a humorous story. Reminds me of those B.C. comics where the disciple climbs the mountain peak to ask the famous guru to share his wisdom about life and gets something like, "It's cold up here. Bring a coat next time". The difference in your case is that the guru came to you.

 

[Cdryden]

So I'm practicing, setting up drills and shots from a book, when one of the strongest players in my pool hall comes over and says: "Hey, let me give you some advice." Then he pauses. And I'm waiting on tenterhooks, thinking: Is he gonna tell me how to do 3-cushion kick shots? A Jump-draw? An eight-ball break that'll pocket 4 balls every time? How to calculate bank shots like a pro? How to know for certain when to shoot at 7:38 vs. 3:15 on the CB? Please God YES!

Naaah.

He has me shoot two ridiculously easy shots and says: "You need to keep your head down."

Then walks away.

Okay, we all have our bad habits. But seriously???

I mean that's like Stephen King spotting a struggling writer in a coffee shop and then coming over and saying: "Let me give you some advice." Struggling writer, wide-eyed, not even daring to swallow the Cappuccino that's scalding the inside of his mouth, waits, thinking King will tell him how to organize a plot, create riveting characters, when to use a mixed metaphor, why sometimes you have to avoid alliterations, etc, etc...

NO.

Instead..

King says: "You need to type more softly."

Then walks away.

Ok, like, if I ever become a really good player I never gonna do that. :indecisive:

PS -- I think really good players have forgotten (or perhaps never knew!) what it's like to be someone who's struggling to learn the finer points of the game. It's like their knowledge has become so instinctive that they can't communicate it, hence the best thing they can say is something like: "Don't use a warped cue." Or "Keep your head down." Or the perennial favorite: "Don't miss."

PPS -- Imagine Michael Phelps trying to teach swimming. Novice swimmer: "How do I swim like you?" Phelps: "Swim fast."

PPPS -- Lest anyone think the guy was jerking me around -- he wasn't. He was sincere about helping me out. It's just that the wide gap between where he is and where I am seems to create a language barrier. haha.

I didn't read all the replies so maybe I am repeating what someone else may have already told you. You need to have certain fundamentals in place in order to build your game to advanced techniques.

Way too many people playing pool today learned to run before they could walk and now suffer the consequences of not having a good foundation. In several cases a person has to unlearn so much that they may never be as good as they could of been if they were taught correctly to begin with. If you learn to do the basics correctly now you will be much better off in the long run and the advanced things will come much easier. When your trying to do advanced techniques with poor fundamentals you will constantly be fighting the game.

So take the time now to do it right. You will find that you will progress much faster in the long run and you wont suffer so many slumps from poor fundamentals. It may seem basic and rudimentary now, but when you first start out the boring repetition is key in building the muscle memory that you will learn to rely on throughout your pool playing career.

Good luck to you.

 

[JoeyA]

So having not been there to see the shot and the result I would suggest the following.actually happened

You set up for high right, however when you stroked the shot you hit somewhere on the cue ball other than high right.

Why you might ask

You were not in control of the tip, might be because you bounced your head up and probably dropped your elbow early, you might have squeezed the cue as you pulled the trigger or flinched or you might of even raised your bridge hand early.

Here is the secret, You can share it with others if you want.

Look and see what is in front of you you might have to walk around the table some if so not to close to the table.
Make a distinct plan
Have perfect fundamentals
Set up the same for every shot from behind the cue ball do not approach shot from the side
Don't crowd the shot line as you get into your stance, you need clearance
Don't waggle cue or practice stroke till you created and checked your solid stance
Consistent number of practice strokes
Solid but light grip
Stop the cue to check aim
Focus on the object ball
Pull the cue back slow
Slight but almost imperceptible pause at the back
Stroke through the cue ball
Watch the object ball as it enters the pocket (use eyes not head movement)
Check your tip
Now get up and review the shot
Forget last shot
Repeat process

How is anyone going to sell a book or provide a paying pool lesson with all of this free information you're giving away?

JoeyA