Pool, Self Respect and Tournaments

[Banks]

Due to the recent numerous posts regarding the behaviour of players, the questions about pool's view from the general public and tournaments in general, it has made me think of how things once were compared to how they are today.

After briefly attending this week's NW BCA event, I joked to myself that it was probably the most pool players I have seen in one room wearing a collared shirt and wondered what the record may actually be.

If pool tournaments required a more professional appearance, I believe it would help players become more self-respecting. I understand the idea that people would prefer to play in what is 'most comfortable', but that is not what is in question here. If you went to court and your judge was sitting in a snuggie with classical music playing, would that be acceptable? Not to me and it would be hard for me to take seriously. Once we teach people that your appearance affects your attitude, things will be able to slowly move in the right direction.

At any other sporting event, people are regularly penalized for inappropriate behaviour. Pool should be no different to be taken more seriously.

The old tournaments had players dressed to impress - and they did! Even in old pictures, people who could barely make ends meet would go to the trouble to make sure that they looked their best in special situations. Perhaps pool should revisit some of those past habits and take itself seriously, if not to give a better impression to the general public, at least for the sake and the dignity of the sport itself.

Players can dish out hundreds of dollars for cues, cases, accessories, etc. The least that can be expected is to have a single set of clothes that are presentable, especially for those that are capable of making money from the game.

Heck, run a ladies night special during such a tournament and I'd bet most would walk away winners. :thumbup:

In addition, I think that some past champions suffer from a lack of respect towards the game(opponents, etc) and themselves for what they had to do for the game. That's a shame, as they should be proud of their achievements and thankful towards a sport that could provide them with such good moments without having to look back with regrets or anger.

I hope I am not beating a dead horse, as this topic has been mentioned before. I am just adding my voice to the choir in hopes of drumming up support.

 

[KCRack'em]

Bz

Bravo zulu!
Karl

 

[Lance Link]

Pool, Self Respect and Tournaments

Tap, tap, tap...

 

[blah blah]

I understand where you're coming from, I really do. And we all see and hear the problems- loud and clear.

But clothes will not change behavior. People will act like themselves, no matter what they are wearing.

Clear, fair sportsmanship rules, together with clear responses and sanctions to violations, are the only things that will shape people up.

*this is in no way meant to respond to any real or imagined, recent or distant past, single person or event. My comment is only for general purpose response to the idea that clothing requirements will affect behaviors.

 

[Joe T]

Due to the recent numerous posts regarding the behaviour of players, the questions about pool's view from the general public and tournaments in general, it has made me think of how things once were compared to how they are today.

After briefly attending this week's NW BCA event, I joked to myself that it was probably the most pool players I have seen in one room wearing a collared shirt and wondered what the record may actually be.

If pool tournaments required a more professional appearance, I believe it would help players become more self-respecting. I understand the idea that people would prefer to play in what is 'most comfortable', but that is not what is in question here. If you went to court and your judge was sitting in a snuggie with classical music playing, would that be acceptable? Not to me and it would be hard for me to take seriously. Once we teach people that your appearance affects your attitude, things will be able to slowly move in the right direction.

At any other sporting event, people are regularly penalized for inappropriate behaviour. Pool should be no different to be taken more seriously.

The old tournaments had players dressed to impress - and they did! Even in old pictures, people who could barely make ends meet would go to the trouble to make sure that they looked their best in special situations. Perhaps pool should revisit some of those past habits and take itself seriously, if not to give a better impression to the general public, at least for the sake and the dignity of the sport itself.

Players can dish out hundreds of dollars for cues, cases, accessories, etc. The least that can be expected is to have a single set of clothes that are presentable, especially for those that are capable of making money from the game.

Heck, run a ladies night special during such a tournament and I'd bet most would walk away winners. :thumbup:

In addition, I think that some past champions suffer from a lack of respect towards the game(opponents, etc) and themselves for what they had to do for the game. That's a shame, as they should be proud of their achievements and thankful towards a sport that could provide them with such good moments without having to look back with regrets or anger.

I hope I am not beating a dead horse, as this topic has been mentioned before. I am just adding my voice to the choir in hopes of drumming up support.

I'm with ya on this.
I believe the day they took'em out of tuxedos started the wrong direction.
IPT demanded a very high dress code and everybody ran out shopping, if we all go shopping first the respect may have a better chance of coming.

 

[Joe T]

I understand where you're coming from, I really do. And we all see and hear the problems- loud and clear.

But clothes will not change behavior. People will act like themselves, no matter what they are wearing.

Clear, fair sportsmanship rules, together with clear responses and sanctions to violations, are the only things that will shape people up.

*this is in no way meant to respond to any real or imagined, recent or distant past, single person or event. My comment is only for general purpose response to the idea that clothing requirements will affect behaviors.

I think clothing and appearance can have at least a slight influence on how a person feels and acts. Granted not all but some?

 

[Banks]

I understand where you're coming from, I really do. And we all see and hear the problems- loud and clear.

But clothes will not change behavior. People will act like themselves, no matter what they are wearing.

Clear, fair sportsmanship rules, together with clear responses and sanctions to violations, are the only things that will shape people up.

*this is in no way meant to respond to any real or imagined, recent or distant past, single person or event. My comment is only for general purpose response to the idea that clothing requirements will affect behaviors.

I agree that some people will continue to act as they normally do, but feel that it would be a step in the right direction on many levels. And clothes do help in some behavioural issues. I'm sure JoeW(speaking of somebody well-dressed) could add a little on that, among some of the other regulars here.

Put somebody in a sports coat and slacks and see how they respond to others around them. They are generally treated more seriously and in turn respond in a more civilized manner.

 

[Lance Link]

I think clothing and appearance can have at least a slight influence on how a person feels and acts. Granted not all but some?

I agree that some people will continue to act as they normally do, but feel that it would be a step in the right direction on many levels. And clothes do help in some behavioural issues. I'm sure JoeW(speaking of somebody well-dressed) could add a little on that, among some of the other regulars here.

Put somebody in a sports coat and slacks and see how they respond to others around them. They are generally treated more seriously and in turn respond in a more civilized manner.

Absolutely. And a dress code at major tournaments would also give pool some credibility, as well as help make the sport more professional and desirable by the general public.

 

[8up]

clothes never make the man. Respect has to be taught and sadly it isn't.

Was billiards not a gentleman's game. I am talking about his wealth. This is where I suppose the tuxedo was common. Many an average Joe and poor man has played since. Remove us and watch the sport fall even deeper.

Rules should be enforced for everyone according to those set at each Tournament. A tournament director could always refuse entry to someone who has shown himself to be disrespectful enough in the past. This would stop some of the Elite from misbehaving. They would have to learn the show goes on without them.

Many post have been made on the condition of our sport. Myself I think we have to get it into school sports. Get the youth of America into it. This would also pull parents into it. This would ripple into college and more sponsored events. Most of America has learned this sport from bars. I think this association has hurt the sport. Even those of us they play in bars do not want our children in one. Get the youth of the world into this game and you will see this sport grow.

This is only only my opinion and is worth exactly what you paid for it.

 

[genomachino]

Brothers kids were terrible...........

Due to the recent numerous posts regarding the behaviour of players, the questions about pool's view from the general public and tournaments in general, it has made me think of how things once were compared to how they are today.

After briefly attending this week's NW BCA event, I joked to myself that it was probably the most pool players I have seen in one room wearing a collared shirt and wondered what the record may actually be.

If pool tournaments required a more professional appearance, I believe it would help players become more self-respecting. I understand the idea that people would prefer to play in what is 'most comfortable', but that is not what is in question here. If you went to court and your judge was sitting in a snuggie with classical music playing, would that be acceptable? Not to me and it would be hard for me to take seriously. Once we teach people that your appearance affects your attitude, things will be able to slowly move in the right direction.

At any other sporting event, people are regularly penalized for inappropriate behaviour. Pool should be no different to be taken more seriously.

The old tournaments had players dressed to impress - and they did! Even in old pictures, people who could barely make ends meet would go to the trouble to make sure that they looked their best in special situations. Perhaps pool should revisit some of those past habits and take itself seriously, if not to give a better impression to the general public, at least for the sake and the dignity of the sport itself.

Players can dish out hundreds of dollars for cues, cases, accessories, etc. The least that can be expected is to have a single set of clothes that are presentable, especially for those that are capable of making money from the game.

Heck, run a ladies night special during such a tournament and I'd bet most would walk away winners. :thumbup:

In addition, I think that some past champions suffer from a lack of respect towards the game(opponents, etc) and themselves for what they had to do for the game. That's a shame, as they should be proud of their achievements and thankful towards a sport that could provide them with such good moments without having to look back with regrets or anger.

I hope I am not beating a dead horse, as this topic has been mentioned before. I am just adding my voice to the choir in hopes of drumming up support.

It's kind of like this.

If you bring some bratty kids into a house that's kind of a mess they just step right in and act like fools making it even a bigger mess.

You bring those same bratty kids into another house where everything looks Perfect and they don't really know where to get started. In fact they act pretty good.

There would be some exceptions to the rule here but if there's no mud the pigs even stay clean.

I like wearing nice clothes when I play pool.

 

[LAlouie]

your appearance affects your attitude, things will be able to slowly move in the right direction.


I hope I am not beating a dead horse,

Well yes, you are beating a dead horse. However,,,if you want players to dress better then I would suggest giving every pro a stipend so that they can buy a decent set of clothes. But looking better won't entice more viewership because there are none to see the pros so nattily dressed.

 

[Marie's husband]

Due to the recent numerous posts regarding the behaviour of players, the questions about pool's view from the general public and tournaments in general, it has made me think of how things once were compared to how they are today.

After briefly attending this week's NW BCA event, I joked to myself that it was probably the most pool players I have seen in one room wearing a collared shirt and wondered what the record may actually be.

If pool tournaments required a more professional appearance, I believe it would help players become more self-respecting. I understand the idea that people would prefer to play in what is 'most comfortable', but that is not what is in question here. If you went to court and your judge was sitting in a snuggie with classical music playing, would that be acceptable? Not to me and it would be hard for me to take seriously. Once we teach people that your appearance affects your attitude, things will be able to slowly move in the right direction.

At any other sporting event, people are regularly penalized for inappropriate behaviour. Pool should be no different to be taken more seriously.

The old tournaments had players dressed to impress - and they did! Even in old pictures, people who could barely make ends meet would go to the trouble to make sure that they looked their best in special situations. Perhaps pool should revisit some of those past habits and take itself seriously, if not to give a better impression to the general public, at least for the sake and the dignity of the sport itself.

Players can dish out hundreds of dollars for cues, cases, accessories, etc. The least that can be expected is to have a single set of clothes that are presentable, especially for those that are capable of making money from the game.

Heck, run a ladies night special during such a tournament and I'd bet most would walk away winners. :thumbup:

In addition, I think that some past champions suffer from a lack of respect towards the game(opponents, etc) and themselves for what they had to do for the game. That's a shame, as they should be proud of their achievements and thankful towards a sport that could provide them with such good moments without having to look back with regrets or anger.

I hope I am not beating a dead horse, as this topic has been mentioned before. I am just adding my voice to the choir in hopes of drumming up support.

It has been 7 or 8 yrs since I went to one of these events and I dont think they had a dress code at that time but I may be wrong. I was lucky enough to attend the NW BCA I thought the same thing...."never seen so many pool players with collared shirts on".

I do agree with you on dressing more professional will make a person act more professional. But, even with the WBCA enforcing the collared shirt rule, a lot of players walked a fine line with that rule by wearing collared shirts under T-shirts, or wearing a sweater that has a half turtleneck type design that looked more like a workout sweatshirt than a dress sweater. Regardless a higher dress code would be nice, but what does the younger generation actually think about that is another question. I am 40 and rarely see teens or mid 20's wear anything but jeans and sneakers, so I doubt half of then even own anything except that.

As far as how the players acted during this particular event. I didnt see one conflict or incident between players and really didnt hear about any either and I was there just about 12-14 hours a day. I did have one incident where I called a foul on myself. I barely touch the cue with my tip getting ready to shoot so I picked it up and gave it to my opponent. My opponent was very surprised that I did that because he didnt see it and he commended me for it. I was surprised and still am and it makes me think about what type of players he must play against. I just dont think I should have been commended for doing the right thing. Maybe its from my background of playing competitive golf during my high school years that instilled the integrity of playing by the rules and understanding that winning by deviating from the rules makes you the biggest looser. I would rather loose every game I ever play before I give up an ounce of my integrity.

 

[deadstroke7]

Maybe its from my background of playing competitive golf during my high school years that instilled the integrity of playing by the rules and understanding that winning by deviating from the rules makes you the biggest looser. I would rather loose every game I ever play before I give up an ounce of my integrity.

TAP,TAP, TAP

A colleague of mine who coaches golf and I were talking about the rules of that game vs pool. Alot comes down to how they were taught and by whom.

Similar to pool, there are golfers who don't play by official PGA rules reguarding how the ball lays, etc. But there are a lot that do.

I think in both -- that if they were taught the game by someone who respects the game and the rules, they probably follow suit.

As for pool in the schools -- it would be HUGE. Especially for students who aren't typical 'athletes' - and only about 20% of those kids get the majority of playing time. Pool is a participation sport. Everyone can play almost regardless of athletic prowess.

You need to solve a couple issues:

• 
  Access to tables - it needs to be at the school. There are a couple model programs and the tables are accessable at school or similar controlled access area, I believe. If table suppliers, local rooms, whomever help supply the tables for reasonable $$ -- it would be the first HUGE obstical.
  
  Sanctioning -- the states high school athletic union will sanction IF YOU HAVE PARTICIPATION -- our state now has a girls and boys BOWLING state event -- traveling high school teams and the like. Get the participation, and the sanctioned state tournament is a win.
  
  Teach em right and watch the participation roll in. If everyone would do some 'investing' in the good of the game -- everyone would win.

Just sayin'

 

[JAM]

The IPT had a strict dress code for the men. They were required to wear long-sleeved shirts with collars and/or a turtleneck shirt. They were all supposed to wear suit jackets at the tournaments as well as leather shoes. Some IPT members were forfeited because they did not have their suit coat on or did not have the correct shirt or shoes.

My partner who has a distinctive side-armed stroke had a lot of trouble wearing the long-sleeved shirts. When he went to break the balls, the shirt sleeves got in the way. We bought a $150 silk turtleneck shirt at the lobby of the Venetian, which is where one tournament was, because he was not comfortable in those long-sleeved shirts, claiming it cost him games. The silk turtleneck shirts had sleeves that were a little bit tighter fitting, allowing him to break and shoot pool more comfortably without the cloth of the shirt sleeve interfering in his side-armed stroke.

He was called on the TV table to play John Schmidt, and he wore that $150 silk turtleneck. An IPT staff member came to me and said he had to take that shirt off because it looked like a T-shirt, even though it was a silk turtleneck costing $150.

Meanwhile, the ladies on the IPT tour were allowed to dress in halter tops, showing their bare arms as well as brandishing their sweat glands for all to see. They were not required to wear suits or clothes that hindered their shooting capabilities.

Golf players could not compete in the IPT dress attire, and neither should pool players. Pool players have to bend and move around the table. They should dress appropriately to allow them comfort. I think golf attire would be appropriate for pool players. JMHO, FWIW!

 

[Joe T]

He was called on the TV table to play John Schmidt, and he wore that $150 silk turtleneck. An IPT staff member came to me and said he had to take that shirt off because it looked like a T-shirt, even though it was a silk turtleneck costing $150.

Golf players could not compete in the IPT dress attire, and neither should pool players. Pool players have to bend and move around the table. They should dress appropriately to allow them comfort. I think golf attire would be appropriate for pool players. JMHO, FWIW!

Well they were fools in that case Jen. We had a collared shirt rule on the Joss tour but if a player had an obvious dress shirt on without a collar I had no problem with it, much better than the player that threw a flannel unbuttoned shirt on over a tshirt and met the collar requirement, I hated that. And I agree gold attire would be fine by me.

 

[Baby PacMan]

Just an observation...

Isn't Earl known for being a hothead? Well if you put him in a Yves Saint Laurent Suit, do think he would act respectable and quell the outbursts?

Dressing nicely won't produce a gentleman's demeanor, it won't command respect if you're acting ill tempered. In fact, it's just disguising the problem, badly.

The image of pool is an uphill battle. There are fights on this board. There are pros showing up drunk to events. The concept of hustling is based on deceit. Sometimes pool seems like a circus. Clothes cannot heal a system wide issue. Clothes cannot make a man act mature. Irving Crane dressed the part, but word is, he was also a true gentleman to boot. Can the same be said for the modern players?

 

[dardusm]

Good Thread. I think players miss an opportunity for some sponsorship by the way they act or dress. There could be a cue or case maker in the audience that would be willing to sponsor a player but won't based on the way they act. Even when the player isn't playing in a tournament, potential sponsors could be anywhere in the crowd. As far as wearing tuxedos or sport coats, I don't think it is a good idea because it can affect performance. The players of yesteryear were playing 14.1 and not rotation pool. Generally no hard breaks, shots, etc. making it a little easier to play so bound up.

 

[justadub]

This thread strikes a bit of resonance with me.

This past Sunday, my son was playing in the local Symphony orchestras youth group, at the university's Center For The Arts. Kind of a big deal for that sort of thing. I decided to "clean up" a bit and put on some nicer clothes than the usual jeans and polo shirt or tshirt or sweat shirt that I wear out and about. No big production, just put on some basic tan dress pants, a sweater and nice shoes. (I realized that I hadn't actually put on nicer clothes in too long a period of time. The dress code at work even changed to jeans last summer.)

After the concert, my buddy and I went to our local club to shoot some, and I decided to not bother to change. It was a pretty good feeling, playing while dressed nicer than usual. I'm quite sure it didn't affect the way I played, as I'm not terribly good to begin with. But the feeling was definitely evident.

I wonder if more people tried dressing nicer when they were going to play something more important, like a tournament, if they might notice it too. I'm not saying I'm gonna go away from the jeans and polo when I go out to shoot on a regular basis, or even for league, but I certainly thought about it for when I go to our state tourney in a few months. The only reason I think I might not is the length of the day, and the environment one is going to be in. (No sense ruining nice clothes or worrying about where you're gonna sit down every minute.) Being comfortable has got to be kept in mind, especially if it's gonna be a long day. I suppose the trick is to find a way to dress better and stay comfortable at the same time...

Rambling... sorry. It just struck me as interesting that day.

 

[Joe T]

Isn't Earl known for being a hothead? Well if you put him in a Yves Saint Laurent Suit, do think he would act respectable and quell the outbursts?

Dressing nicely won't produce a gentleman's demeanor, it won't command respect if you're acting ill tempered. In fact, it's just disguising the problem, badly.

The image of pool is an uphill battle. There are fights on this board. There are pros showing up drunk to events. The concept of hustling is based on deceit. Sometimes pool seems like a circus. Clothes cannot heal a system wide issue. Clothes cannot make a man act mature. Irving Crane dressed the part, but word is, he was also a true gentleman to boot. Can the same be said for the modern players?

I agree with most of what you said but still believe proper dress could help, even if its just a little. Wish I could say it for all but I can't, there are some true ladies & gentlemen out there.

 

[tom mcgonagle]

It all starts at the top.

I like Joe remember the Joss Tour and the requirements you had to meet to play. As attendance slipped, so did the standards. I'm sorry it's true. I'm sure that's not the only case.

I've also played in rooms that the owners encouraged woofing and bantering while the tournament was still in progress. Some of the huge ego's still think the show is about them, after they get knocked out of the tournament. This doesn't work for me. I hated playing in places this was allowed to happen. It shows a total disrespect to the people that remain in the tournament.

I'm sure your appearance is important. But the fact of the matter is: "If your put a suit on a pig, It's still a pig." Get rid of the pigs.