Poolgame: Kill the King

DaWizard said:
Balls 1 to 5, 1 being the kingslayer, 5 being the King. 8 (= the wall) I would keep. No saboteur or assassin.

Supersimple:
Player setup their balls on one half, one by one until all 5 balls are placed. No reservist queue; potted balls are lost. Unless illegally potted. Go hunt for the King!
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That was about what I had in mind. Let's learn a new game, and once the concept is established, we can add the rest of the rules that encourage a more nuanced strategy.
DaWizard said:
I could put it back, but per the rule it cant be used as a cueball. And so you've saved yourself from the situation. Hmm this seems like quite the loophole.
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It's a little like knocking the cueball off the table when potting a ball in your opponent's pocket in one-pocket. I like doing the math on if an intentional foul will be worth it, I love when a player takes a non offensive shot and makes his opponent shoot knowing that they will lose if they don't get out.

When you respot an illegally potted ball, are you allowed to put it anywhere? That seems like a decent return.
 
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tomatoshooter said:
It's a little like knocking the cueball off the table when potting a ball in your opponent's pocket in one-pocket. I like doing the math on if an intentional foul will be worth it, I love when a player takes a non offensive shot and makes his opponent shoot knowing that they will lose if they don't get out.

When you respot an illegally potted ball, are you allowed to put it anywhere? That seems like a decent return.
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Yes, these intentional fouls are very interesting situations. Fun if it sometimes is somehow worth it.

Yes you can place anywhere. If it turns out to be the assassin, kingslayer or King, it could be placed behind the enemy King and finish the game.
So that's why I thought: it can't be used as cueball. But then it's becoming advantageous to pot illegally. So as a counter I thought it should be immune as well. But writing all this I think we indeed need to look for something more simple and elegant. If you have an idea...

Starting out with the supersimple™ version and building from there, might be a better strategy to build this game.
And maybe in it's purest form it's entertaining enough. But even then this is a situation that needs a solution.
 
DaWizard said:
Yes, these intentional fouls are very interesting situations. Fun if it sometimes is somehow worth it.

Yes you can place anywhere. If it turns out to be the assassin, kingslayer or King, it could be placed behind the enemy King and finish the game.
So that's why I thought: it can't be used as cueball. But then it's becoming advantageous to pot illegally. So as a counter I thought it should be immune as well. But writing all this I think we indeed need to look for something more simple and elegant. If you have an idea...

Starting out with the supersimple™ version and building from there, might be a better strategy to build this game.
And maybe in it's purest form it's entertaining enough. But even then this is a situation that needs a solution.
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Placing the illegally potted ball anywhere but not being allowed to shoot it until the next turn seems reasonable. I think this will need a lot of playtesting to fine tune the rules. I do like the deeper level of strategy, so I'm not opposed to the more sophisticated versions of the game. While most pool games have relatively simple rules, there are plenty of popular board games that have more complex rules.
 
Badpenguin said:
I find the combining of two words into one is driving my grammar nazi into a frenzy. Can’t get past it. Poolgame cueball kingball objectball. Why? Why is the english language being so butchered?

Other than that, in my experience pool players don’t have a love of math. Might be a hard sell. Bonus Ball seemed to be about as complex as most pool players could handle, or they would all be masters at 3 and 4 rails kicks, right?
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Uh, have you looked at your screen name?

Asking for a friend...

Regarding the game itself, I prefer fast and loose (9B) so probably wouldn't play it but it seems interesting, also, the the fact you are executing the shots on the object balls and not the cue ball gives me the willies.
 
Re your last shot (which I like very much for the English off the rail) - Are you allowed to use your king? I ran the 3-ball into him last time (in the same shot as illegally pocketing the 12).
 
Chili Palmer said:
executing the shots on the object balls and not the cue ball gives me the willies.
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Yeah, I like to keep the object balls pristine, I can buy another cue ball. Realistically, I doubt anyone could ever shoot enough to make a difference, but my training cue ball has a slight scuff from practicing my draw shot.
 
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Pin said:
Re your last shot (which I like very much for the English off the rail) - Are you allowed to use your king? I ran the 3-ball into him last time (in the same shot as illegally pocketing the 12).
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Woops, indeed I cannot!

Ok, different shot and was a little hard to calculate from behind the screen, but I think its a bit like this: https://pad.chalkysticks.com/b1dd5
(your King caroms off the 1)

And with that shot the balls end up here: https://pad.chalkysticks.com/6a3ba
Please note: you can't use your King, because I played with the saboteur

Edit: again I got someone else's diagram, fixed it.
 
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Chili Palmer said:
Regarding the game itself, I prefer fast and loose (9B) so probably wouldn't play it but it seems interesting, also, the the fact you are executing the shots on the object balls and not the cue ball gives me the willies.
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Yeah, it goes against intuition! I think because we don't want kicks? Well in this game we give the cue ball a break (some pun intended) 🙂
And indeed a big difference is the turn based aspect. Although I like Kill the King sofar, I do believe people just want to stay at the table and shoot.
 
tomatoshooter said:
Placing the illegally potted ball anywhere but not being allowed to shoot it until the next turn seems reasonable.
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Another issue (?): a player can respot the ball frozen to the king, line them up to a pocket (adjusting for throw) and just slam the King, Assassin or Kingslayer in the respotted ball. If you line them up properly it's almost a certain pot... This could be prevented by another rule: an immune, respotted ball cannot be used in a cannon.
 
Sorry for the wait, I didn't have any time yesterday.

I like your shot. It shifts the momentum in your favour.

I shoot the 3 into the 9 and draw back to the 15/king, so both frozen for next time. But I don't manage to leave the 3 between the 15 and 7.

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DaWizard said:
Another issue (?): a player can respot the ball frozen to the king, line them up to a pocket (adjusting for throw) and just slam the King, Assassin or Kingslayer in the respotted ball. If you line them up properly it's almost a certain pot... This could be prevented by another rule: an immune, respotted ball cannot be used in a cannon.
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That's a good point. It's awkward because if you allow the respotted ball to be moved at all, you might need a subjective rule about what kind of movement is allowed and what isn't. (E.g., in addition to the combination shot, there's a pretty reliable bump-carom shot where the extra ball (which your CB hits first) is close to the target OB.)

But if you don't allow the respotted ball to be moved at all, it could be an unfair hazard for the player who respots it.

You could maybe have the respotted ball placed *after* the 'innocent' player's shot. But if it was his only ball, things could get complicated.
 
Pin said:
That's a good point. It's awkward because if you allow the respotted ball to be moved at all, you might need a subjective rule about what kind of movement is allowed and what isn't. (E.g., in addition to the combination shot, there's a pretty reliable bump-carom shot where the extra ball (which your CB hits first) is close to the target OB.)
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Placing it after your shot... Yes that seems to be the more simple and elegant solution! Also no immunity, because the player can place it anywhere. So better place it somewhere safe! Shall we adopt this rule going foreward?
Edit: yes if its his only ball, the King, hmm then what? This basically only happens if the opponents' King was potted in the wrong pocket or shot off table.
A similar situation that I did describe: what if the saboteur touches all the remaining balls? In the current ruleset he can't do that. Well he can, but then he doesnt sabotage any ball.

Even with that rule, and with recruitment in general, there are probably some clever setups that instantly put someone in big trouble. But we'll see.
 
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Pin said:
Sorry for the wait, I didn't have any time yesterday.
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No worries, I'm rewriting the rules in Dutch and then going to let chatGPT translate it and see if things are more clear.

Also in the current situation: would I be allowed to make the 12 - 15 -> 7 cannon? Small % shot, but it attacks your King!

This makes me realize that cannons are not yet properly defined. Here are some variations.
canwedothis.jpg

(oops in the image I wrote carom, but meant cannon)

- in the current rules I allowed the 8 to be used in a cannon, but I think it should not be allowed. It's a wall. You can't use it. It is for taking cover.

- can I use a sabotaged ball in a cannon? like we see in the current situation of our game. I would say yes, because the sabotage is about it being disabled as cue ball.
 
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DaWizard said:
- in the current rules I allowed the 8 to be used in a cannon, but I think it should not be allowed. It's a wall. You can't use it. It is for taking cover.
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Personally, I think it should be allowed. It means fewer rules/restrictions, more creative options, and in practice it could be hard to track what every ball on the table does, if a shot moves a lot of different balls. But as ever, it's your game to decide :)
DaWizard said:
- can I use a sabotaged ball in a cannon? like we see in the current situation of our game. I would say yes, because the sabotage is about it being disabled as cue ball.
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I'd say you should be able to, for the same reasons as above.

I think the same principles would answer the four questions in the picture too - it should be the cue ball that determines whether a shot is allowed, and any cannons etc. are permitted. (Taking into account the individual balls could add some interesting nuances, but in practice I think it would be very difficult to track if a lot of balls were in motion. And the opponent/referee would have an especially hard time because they might not know exactly what the shooter is planning, so they don't know what exactly to watch for until they've seen the outcome of the shot.)
 
Pin said:
I've taken some inspiration from our discussion and recruited the 5: https://pad.chalkysticks.com/69715
(Edited to be more accurate in diagram. I'm lined up for the 5-15 to point to the corner pocket, just a very small gap between them.)
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I did place the 12 so there was no gap, but perhaps you set it up for the future? I did not want to await and went for a risky shot. Hope you agree on the paths I "calculated". I just tried to calculate for every individual ball and not check how they end up (and if I should adjust).
Since this is fantasypool my initial stun off the king goes perfectly :) In reality there would be a fair chance that I would ruin the shot.

Shotpaths: https://pad.chalkysticks.com/403e5 (hope it works for you, I get a blank screen, it was like the image below, kind of )
shotssss.jpg


And then it ends up like this: https://pad.chalkysticks.com/d92a8
I've disabled your 7, 3 and 5. I really hope your 6 is not the Assassin. And actually I would not be surprised if you gave that role to your strongest ball. So Im about to find out :D

Edit: it's really probable your 6 is the assassin 🙁
 
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My 6 was the assassin. [Edited to delete something about choosing a strong/weak assassin, because I misread what you wrote!] Thinking about it, using a stronger ball does make sense, because it makes it harder for you to shoot it off the table (which was presumably your thinking too).

But if you want to play the rack out a little further, I can pick a different assassin (and pretend it was that all along). In which case, I recruit the 4-ball: https://pad.chalkysticks.com/b5f08
 
Pin said:
Personally, I think it should be allowed. It means fewer rules/restrictions, more creative options, and in practice it could be hard to track what every ball on the table does, if a shot moves a lot of different balls. But as ever, it's your game to decide :)

I'd say you should be able to, for the same reasons as above.

I think the same principles would answer the four questions in the picture too - it should be the cue ball that determines whether a shot is allowed, and any cannons etc. are permitted. (Taking into account the individual balls could add some interesting nuances, but in practice I think it would be very difficult to track if a lot of balls were in motion. And the opponent/referee would have an especially hard time because they might not know exactly what the shooter is planning, so they don't know what exactly to watch for until they've seen the outcome of the shot.)
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Very open to critical thoughts, so keep them coming.
It sounds easiest and logical to have the cue ball as the initiator, and thuis determine the outcome. So that would be the way to go.
Still on the fence about the 8. It should be tested. I like it being a completely neutral and unusable entity. And that should be easy to remember. And possibly gives interesting situations. But needs testing.
 
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