Poolhall Prices- Hurting Pool?

[nfty9er]

Great response

I thought your question was pretty straightforward, and was my reply.
Steve

I believe he not quite up to date. I too play golf as I would venture to say most of my customers from all walks of life and professions. My Super Bowl tournament is coming up and i will have about a hundred golfers and pool players. And by the way the golf prices equal about the same as pool prices per hour.

 

[nfty9er]

sounds like

your math doesn't sound right. if your cost is $10,000 per month, then doing $20,000 in sales is already 50% profit margin.

anyway, the place I play at is $4 per table everyday from opening till 6PM. From 6pm till closing, it goes up to $12/hr, and $15/hr on friday and saturday nights. AFAIK it doesn't matter how many of you guys play on the table (well I usually just play with one other person) They've got VIP rooms at I think $30 per hour, then nights would be $60. There's also a package that you'd rent a VIP room for $200 or 300 for 2 hours, up to 10 person can play (or was it 20), includes food and free beer (I was told the beer was unlimited. Not sure bout food though)

Hollywood Billiards? Dont keep it secret.

 

[nfty9er]

I disagree also

Actually it wasn't a dig at you being an instructor. It was a dig at your viewpoint that pool is doing well, just because you are a successful instructor that has alot of clients (from what you suggested).

It's kind of like a rich man living at the top of a mountain overlooking a city that is poor, and since the rich man is doing well, he says that the city is doing well economically. I was trying to imply that it seems like you have a clouded view of pool in general.

Like you said, more people play pool than ever before. Lets not forget the world also has a much, much, larger population than it has ever had before.

You could even go out on a limb and talk about how many people are in pool leagues, like the APA or the BCA for example. In the BCA pool leagues, there are hundreds of teams that compete in Vegas in May. It costs $1 per game per table. Now if you do the math, with all the matches being played, and those thousands of people pumping in $1 for every game, the long races, and the payouts for 1st place and down, the profit that the BCA is making on that event alone is just sick. So rather than saying that pool is in it's golden age because of the amount of players in the BCA, it makes much more sense to say that the BCA is in it's golden age because of the amount of players it feeds off of. (Don't get me wrong, I love going to Vegas in May for that, but I do think the payouts should be alot higher).

My point here is that just because leagues and instructors are doing quite well, doesn't mean that the sport in general is doing well. Pooltchr, if you talked to the majority of professional pool players and asked them how the sport is doing, it would be a landslide in how many of them disagree with your opinion of it.

And to everyone who thinks I am complaining about poolhall prices, I was just asking a question and making an observation. Seriously, do you people read posts or do you just skim thru them? LOL come on now....

Professional pool players do not have a clue if pool rooms are doing well. That was not the thread. Of course they will say the sport is not what it should be to them. But you are basing some of your observations onf the prices you pay. Read the thread on pool hall prices around the country. Most are much cheaper. I agree pool is down this last year but it has always come back. It is not so down that you cannot make money. I have been in business 27 years and still make 5-6 figures.

 

[Captain Dan]

Rates in Australia

I only have 1 big hall near me, and you can either pay approx $8US/hr or, if you take a 6 month membership for $40US ($20US for league players), $4US/day, except for the new Brunswick 9' tables, which are always hourly ($8 and $4). Last night I was there, and all 25 tables were in use from 8pm-1pm, and when we were thrown out at 4pm, there were still 5 tables in action. It has a full bar, function room with bar and 2 tables, and sponsors over 20 teams in our main competition here. It hosts monthly money comps, and 1 big yearly comp ($15000 in prize money).

In Melbourne, I play at Legends in South Yarra, and if practicing alone, I'm charged $4US/ hr, if playing with someone its $8US/hr (doesn't matter how many are playing).

Most places seem to operate with full bar service, and people go for a night out, with some serious players mixed in. This attracts a good mix of people, including women, and of all ages.

Daniel

 

[nfty9er]

Don't work

Good post Steve.

I was actually wondering if any poolhalls have experimented with lowering rates. Not to something ridiculous, like $2 an hour, but lets say a room that sells beer and hard liquor, their table rates are $9 per hour for 2 players. Lower the rates to like $6 per hour. The plan is to try it for 2 or 3 months (which should be enough time to see if it has highered or lowered revenue), and to have enough money to take a hit if it doesnt work, and see if it inreases their revenue. If it does, they stay with it, if it fails, they go back to normal or try something else. The 80-20 figure here would not be effected, because obviously the 20% of regulars who contribute 80% of the business are gonna stick around if a room lowers their rates.

The room could do some small advertising about the cheap rates, and perhaps do some specials on a free drink for your first hour of pool, etc. Doing drink specials are usually a good idea from what I've seen, because people have a tendency to stay longer and drink more once they get a little buzz going. I was just wondering if anyone knows of poolhalls that have experimented with lowering their rates and having some special deals.

Obviously the idea is that cheaper prices/deals should = more customers, which hopefully would surpass the average income the poolhall makes with regular rates. If it were wildly successful, a smart room owner would invest in making the room a real nice place, totally different than other poolrooms to prevent potential regulars from floating around to other poolhalls within the radius of a few miles. Anyone know if this idea has had alot of success/failures?

I have tried everything in 27 years. Nothing works. People do not even pay attention much to reasonable pool prices. They want to go out for fun, they go. IN the heat of summer it is almost impossible to get them in until late. I try to keep beer prices lower though than the bars cause people are paying for pool and booze so they deserve a decent price.
And there is no other pool rooms within 40 miles.

 

[nfty9er]

Keep us guessing

Where I play I pay $ 3 per hour to play by myself during the day or $ 6 per hour if there are two or more players on the table. At night I pay $ 6 per hour to play by myself or $ 12 per hour if there are two or more players on the table. Seems reasonable to me. They also have free pool on Mondays and if you play the Sunday night 9-ball tourney there is free practice for two hours before it starts. The place is kept really nice so I am happy to pay what I do vs. hitting some of the places with cheaper deals that are a bit rougher.

Where do you play? That is the key. 12 is too much in my opinion but your area may support it or the economy of your area. Maybe it is the high rent that requires high rate.

 

[nfty9er]

Good post

I think the poolroom owners have to be realistic. Times have changed and the old style poolroom is going to have a very difficult time making it. As the public’s demands change, so does the business. Adapt or fold.

A few facts that people need to accept.

1. Pool halls need alcohol. This is a chance for a high markup and it brings more people in, or at least doesn’t drive people away because they would like to have a drink or two while they shoot.
2. Pool halls need to offer food, even if it is just some finger food and little frozen pizzas.
3. Pool halls can’t make it off of table time alone.
4. Pool halls need to have a shop. Must offer at least cues for sale, accessories and retipping if not more services. Can you really call yourself a pool hall if no one there knows how to put a tip on?
5. Pool halls need to offer other things to do. Dart boards, golden tee, shuffleboard, mega touch machines, etc. This gives the casual player a change of pace if they would like one. Or everyone in a group can have something that they like to do.
6. Pool halls need to charge for the table time, not the time per person at the table. Is more than one person shooting at exactly the same time? The table will be used the same amount whether 2 people are playing or 6. The casual player does not want to pay for the time they are not actually shooting. If you want to offer a discount for one person, great, but for 2 or more people table time should be exactly what it sounds like, $ for the amount of time the table is in use. You also want groups instead of discouraging them because more people equals more food and drinks sold.
7. Perks for the regulars are nice if you want to keep customers. Even if it is just a random thing, free hour, free drink, free food, just here and there.
8. Hot bartender never hurts either. LOL


Kind of sounds like a sports bar doesn’t it? That is the reality of it. You can focus on pool but you better offer more than just that if you want to make any money. Everyone says that pool players are cheap, so why does everyone focus on only bringing serious pool players in the door? You have to have the people that just want to have some fun for a few hours with some friends, they will spend money, but they want options not just pool with some soda to drink.

Sorry if this makes me unpopular but I don’t feel too sorry for the owners that open a new place and only offer pool, soda and chips, and then wonder why they are struggling. Well I would like to start manufacturing horse and buggies. How do you think my business is going to do? What? No market for horse and buggies anymore? I don’t believe it because the market used to be huge. Are you guys going to feel sorry for the industry or me when my horse and buggy business folds in a year or are you going to say WHAT DID YOU EXPECT? If you are going to open a poolroom you better open your eyes and face reality. You have to give customers what they want or they will go somewhere else. It is Basic Business 101.

Looks like Manwon's place has met the public's demands pretty well. He wouldn't make it either without all the extras that he offers. Hope I get the chance sometime to check it out sometime.

For older, established pool halls I understand that these decisions can be much more difficult. But it is still the basic rules of business. Adapt to demand or offer something unique and find a niche. Otherwise the clock is probably ticking.

Just my 2 cents.

Nathan

Very intuitive.
Sounds like you are describing my room.

 

[nfty9er]

again,

I don't think any place will make money on table time alone, and cold drinks won't cut it. Players want to find a place that is reasonably priced and has well kept, good equipment. At least that is what I look for. The most expensive pool hall in my town is $6.75/hour flat, but they have specials during the week. My favorite place, however, accommodates the players as well as those just wanting to go out and have a good time without blaring music in a club. They have a segregated area for 5- 9 footers that are "reserved" during peak hours for the serious players/regulars. The college aged crowd that is looking to go out and have a few drinks and party shoot on the 8 footers.

Liquor sales = $$$. However you slice it, patrons = money. The most successful pool hall in my area has 12 8 footers and a nice, although relatively small bar and sitting area separate from the tables. They pride themselves on good service, and you can count on them to have really good looking waitresses that know how to flirt and get tips. If you wait for a customer to come to the bar to order a drink, you will lose out on sales. These girls are constantly moving about, gabbing with customers, etc. Their friends come over to chat, and their boyfriends show up and drink and shoot a little. There is constant turnover of employees outside of the Management positions. When the waitresses leave, unless they are disgruntled, they will come around occasionally to see their old friends and you have some retention. New girls bring their new friends and it starts to feed on itself.

Bottom line for profit, in my opinion, is to find a way to attract non-serious pool playing customers who drink and hang around and think that the place is "THE" place to be. You have to ask yourself why do customers who visit your establishment not coming back. Getting them in the door for the first time won't make you money over the long haul.

Where is this room? You are right but your area may be a no brainer.

 

[nfty9er]

First of all where is it

I managed a room for years and may see it differently.

A few rooms here won't even have league teams because they have a waiting list by 6pm every night (avg 16 tables, avg gross $1800-$2200 a day) *** These are full liquor places with a full kitchen and menu also.

What are you saying? Obviously those rooms don't have to do anything if business is that good. Please list the rooms, would like to visit someday. I guess this blows out the orginator of this thread that pool prices are killing pool. So what do you see differently.

 

[Ruthless]

What are you saying? Obviously those rooms don't have to do anything if business is that good. Please list the rooms, would like to visit someday. I guess this blows out the orginator of this thread that pool prices are killing pool. So what do you see differently.

Sportstown Billiards in downtown Orlando (standing room only - opened 1950's), Trick Shots east (packed every night - I built this one in 1998 - see P&B mag Sept. 98' 10 best upscale rooms), Trick Shots Metro West, Clicks North & South Orlando, Planet 9-Ball Tampa, Capones Billiards Spring Hill, and several more in the area all do great business. All have good atmosphere, good food, decent location, and plenty of parking - the 4 main things needed to be successful (these are not tourist area rooms, we have those also, but they are a different breed).

There is one more here that does well at times even though the food & atmosphere sux because they cater to the younger crowd called Fast Break, but they have a decent location.

We really don't have a winter so seasons here make little difference.

I wish you well.

 

[Dead Money]

Where do you play? That is the key. 12 is too much in my opinion but your area may support it or the economy of your area. Maybe it is the high rent that requires high rate.

Austin Texas. We have a pretty high cost of living here compared to many other places(excluding cities like San Francisco in CA or NY City of course).

 

[manwon]

I don't allow it at all. Those types know that and stay away. Those idiots would become extinct if more room owners enforced the "no loitering" rule - or "you can stay if you pay" rule. Many of the guys that do that hang out over at Click's. They won't come here because they know my rules - if they call e an a$$hole because of that, so be it. I'm not in business to make friends, I'm in business to make money.

I totally agree with you. This is the first problem I had to take care of as a pool room owner.

By the way, I also did not install a pay phone, if my paying customers need to use a phone they can make free local calls at my counter. I also placed signs on the restroom door's stating that the rest rooms had pay toilets, which they really don't, but it serves it's intended purpose.

This has not hurt my business at all, in fact it has enhanced it, by helping to keep things clean and not giving the freeloaders an excuse to even enter my establishment.

Have a nice night!!!!!!!!

mANWON

 

[whitey2]

Please eloborate, thanks

Hi,

I've read the posts about asking the non-spenders to leave. I
can see doing that if they never spend anything, but if a
person who plays now and then comes in, perhaps looking for
a game and none of their regular friends/players are there,
do you allow them to stay for a while and wait to see who may
wander in? Or is it just folks that try to loiter for no reason
that you "kick out". This is an interesting topic.

 

[Flex]

my rule of thumb is that playing Pool should be about the same
as what it costs you to go to the movies for 2 hours of entertainment.
(Movies are $7 here, $6 for seniors)

Kids go where it is cheap, and fun.

Everyone here about croaked when Bar tables went from .50 to .75.

2 places here will still open up Bar tables for play for $5 an hour, when 2 players match up, that's total, not per player.

Big table rates at the highest is $7 an hour, per player, with cheaper rates in the non primetime hours.

You guys just need to live where a decent standard of living exists.
Spending well over a million dollars for a modest home in San Francisco, when you could buy the same house here for less than $200,000.

We are getting more and more people moving from NY and California to our city, and saying that they just love it here. They send letters in to the editorial page of our paper.

I certainly do live in an area such as you describe, quite a nice area.

Let's see how many places I can get to within a 20 minute drive where the table time is reasonable.

Well, there's

* Chris's Billiards: $2.75/hour before 6PM, $3.75 after 6.

* Chicago Billiard Cafe: Weekday specials of $5 flat rate from noon-5pm and $7 from 3-8PM; weekends are $10 flat rate from noon-6PM.

* Chris's II: everyday special from noon-6PM for $10.

* Cuephoria: Mon-Wed from opening (2pm) til close (2AM) for FREE (just buy two or more drinks, they have beer specials on Mondays and Tuesdays, all sorts of specials... and food, and darts, and foosball, etc., etc... Check out the place: http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=83906166

Am I spoiled, or what??

Flex

 

[Flex]

I just paid $20 an hour in central London..... £$%^&*(!!!!
No GC IV/Diamond table, no Simonis, no Aramiths or Centennials...

You guys have it good in the US..

Ah, the perks of free enterprise, competition, and tax rates well below those of "Old Europe."

 

[Flex]

I have tried everything in 27 years. Nothing works. People do not even pay attention much to reasonable pool prices. They want to go out for fun, they go. IN the heat of summer it is almost impossible to get them in until late. I try to keep beer prices lower though than the bars cause people are paying for pool and booze so they deserve a decent price.
And there is no other pool rooms within 40 miles.

That may be the key: no other pool rooms...

What's the best place to open up a restaurant?? Where there are other restaurants...

It could be that pool just isn't a "happening" thing where you are.

 

[Flex]

Austin Texas. We have a pretty high cost of living here compared to many other places(excluding cities like San Francisco in CA or NY City of course).

That's interesting. I just Googled that. Here's what I found:

Austin Among Least Expensive US Cities
The ACCRA-the Council for Community and Economic Research ranks Austin along with nine other US Cities from lowest to highest (most expensive) cost of living in 4th quarter 2005.

1. Raleigh
2. Dallas
3. Austin
4. Atlanta
5. Phoenix
6. Denver
7. Seattle
8. Chicago
9. Boston
10. San Francisco

Source: http://austin.about.com/od/localstatistics/a/costofliving.htm

Chicago sure has it's share of upscale rooms, as well as player's rooms. No complaints about what Chitown has to offer. Also, Pro-Tyme Billiards in Orland Park has a daily special: 11AM-6PM for $10 per person. One of the best rooms I've played in. Check this out: http://www.protymebilliards.com/

 

[Da Poet]

I certainly do live in an area such as you describe, quite a nice area.

Let's see how many places I can get to within a 20 minute drive where the table time is reasonable.

Well, there's

* Chris's Billiards: $2.75/hour before 6PM, $3.75 after 6.

* Chicago Billiard Cafe: Weekday specials of $5 flat rate from noon-5pm and $7 from 3-8PM; weekends are $10 flat rate from noon-6PM.

* Chris's II: everyday special from noon-6PM for $10.

* Cuephoria: Mon-Wed from opening (2pm) til close (2AM) for FREE (just buy two or more drinks, they have beer specials on Mondays and Tuesdays, all sorts of specials... and food, and darts, and foosball, etc., etc... Check out the place: http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=83906166

Am I spoiled, or what??

Flex

Dey got a lotta kickace pool here dat's fer sure!

 

[nfty9er]

Did u read all the posts

That may be the key: no other pool rooms...

What's the best place to open up a restaurant?? Where there are other restaurants...

It could be that pool just isn't a "happening" thing where you are.

Confused. Pool is happening in my area considering it is a beach town. 27 years speaks volumes to that. The restaurant anaology is right because you have different types of food. That would not work with pool rooms.
I was talking strictly on summer business which is bad everywhere usually except it seems in Florida where they do not know the difference.

 

[nfty9er]

Just folks that try and loiter

Hi,

I've read the posts about asking the non-spenders to leave. I
can see doing that if they never spend anything, but if a
person who plays now and then comes in, perhaps looking for
a game and none of their regular friends/players are there,
do you allow them to stay for a while and wait to see who may
wander in? Or is it just folks that try to loiter for no reason
that you "kick out". This is an interesting topic.

If they come in now and then they are closer to a regular than most.
Besides those people usually will buy a beer or soda.