Pool's "Best Practices"

Why am I wrong and Bob isn't?

We said the same thing, about the load.

The push / pull discussion is getting more ridiculous with every post.

Believe what you will, and I will do the same.

QUOTE=(((Satori)));5149621]You are still wrong. Fran is correct when she says someone is using a pushing or pulling motion. It doesn't matter where the load is. Think of it like this. If I do a bicep curl, palms facing me... with the weight resting in front of my hands... I am pulling the weight towards me. I am pulling but the weight is being pushed. If I do the same curl with the weight hanging from a cable behind my hand... I am still pulling the weight to me but now the weight is also being pulled. In both scenarios I was pulling even though the weight was being pushed one time and pulled the other.[/QUOTE]
 
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Tony_in_MD said:
Why am I wrong and Bob isn't?

We said the same thing, about the load.

QUOTE=(((Satori)));5149621]You are still wrong. Fran is correct when she says someone is using a pushing or pulling motion. It doesn't matter where the load is. Think of it like this. If I do a bicep curl, palms facing me... with the weight resting in front of my hands... I am pulling the weight towards me. I am pulling but the weight is being pushed. If I do the same curl with the weight hanging from a cable behind my hand... I am still pulling the weight to me but now the weight is also being pulled. In both scenarios I was pulling even though the weight was being pushed one time and pulled the other.
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[/QUOTE]

Because when it comes to the motion we are using the load doesnt matter. Again, you can pull to push a load in front or you can push to pull a load in back. If you grip the cue behind you, like all of us do, then you push it away regardless of where the load is. Even though you are pushing the stick is pulled.

The difference between you and Bob though is Bob made his statement and then asked why the motion would be considered different. You simply said "When you make the ball move by swinging your arm it still a pulling motion that accomplishes it? No, it is a push."

The correct term is based on wether someone is reffering to the motion of the player or the action generated. You were clearly talking about the motion in your post and labled the motion wrong.
 
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DTL said:
Quote from Tonythetiger583 (from the Dropping your Elbow thread): asked CJ ---> "Could you elaborate on the idea of hitting it with your elbow? I'm not sure if I'm doing it right".

Here was CJ's response in red:

When you reach the pause in your back-swing, start the forward motion with your elbow. Good so far. This keeps everything together as a unit so the wrist is delayed slightly so it can release at the moment of contact. Right at the moment of contact??

The acceleration is essential for precision and accuracy.

I teach this technique (you teach a pendulum stroke:eek:) , however, it takes a very seasoned eye (and ear) to be able to present the student with accurate feedback. It happens so quickly you have to work with someone until they get it right (through systematic "trial and error"), then encourage them to do it respectably until they start to develop the new habit. :rolleyes: lol

This generally takes approximately 90 minutes in most cases. 90 minutes......cha ching!


Tonythetiger, it appears you never got the real answer to your question from the other thread. It's just using Ronnie's name and the phrase "hitting with the elbow" to spark peoples curiosity......baiting.

Below is a chopped video with Ronnie giving some instruction to a couple young lads. When discussing the cuing action with them he taps his shoulder and says "always keep this still" and then says "always hit with the elbow"........clearly he was simply saying flex the elbow which results in a forward, straight movement of the cue. Looks to me like he was advocating a pendulum stroke.:eek::wink:.............which the student executed perfectly at the end of the chopped video.

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/5691213
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:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
 
Neil said:
If you would take the time to actually read things, you would see that the only thing I am upset about is the nonsense on here. If someone wants to play with their elbow dropping, fine. No one is saying that is inherently wrong. (except those putting words into others mouths)

Second, your put-downs and insults are really showcasing who you really are. Not a nice picture you put out there. And, yes, I stooped to some myself, after YOU and english put it out there first. I at least showed my point of view, and the reasoning behind it. More than either of you two have done. All you two do is insult instead of debating civilly or show an example to make a point.
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:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
 
In pool terms, the tip is the load.

During the backswing, we are PULLING the tip back, and then PUSHING it during the forwardswing.

At least that's how I see it.
 
WoW! This sure has grown into something....

Peeps, a stroke is both a push and a pull at different moments. That's it...
 
And I believe that where the load relative to the body is is the only thing that matters.

Me ---> Load = Push
Load ---> Me = Pull

There is no definition of Push or Pull that describes it in terms of the motion of the arm. I guess that is my problem to sort out.

As said before Forward Stroke and Back Stroke is much easier to understand.

And what does it matter anyway, as long as the backstroke is slow, there is a smooth transition between the back stroke and forward stroke, and controlled acceleration of the forward stroke. To me a discussion of Push, Pull is like an discussion of aiming systems. Everyone has their own opinion and their opinion is the correct one.






Because when it comes to the motion we are using the load doesnt matter. Again, you can pull to push a load in front or you can push to pull a load in back. If you grip the cue behind you, like all of us do, then you push it away regardless of where the load is. Even though you are pushing the stick is pulled.

The difference between you and Bob though is Bob made his statement and then asked why the motion would be considered different. You simply said "When you make the ball move by swinging your arm it still a pulling motion that accomplishes it? No, it is a push."

The correct term is based on wether someone is reffering to the motion of the player or the action generated. You were clearly talking about the motion in your post and labled the motion wrong.[/QUOTE]
 
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Tony_in_MD said:
And I believe that where the load relative to the body is is the only thing that matters.

Me ---> Load = Push
Load ---> Me = Pull Yeah but your belief is wrong.

There is no definition of Push or Pull that describes it in terms of the motion of the arm. I guess that is my problem to sort out.There is a definition. Pull- exert force on (someone or something), typically with one's hand, in order to move them away from oneself or the origin of the force.

As said before Forward Stroke and Back Stroke is much easier to understand.

And what does it matter anyway, as long as the backstroke is slow, there is a smooth transition between the back stroke and forward stroke, and controlled acceleration of the forward stroke. To me a discussion of Push, Pull is like an discussion of aiming systems. Everyone has their own opinion and their opinion is the correct one.
It doesnt really matter to me. It's just fun discussion. But, Fran was right.
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It mattered to DTR.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
I'm not very ambitious. If we get fewer suggestions to "just do what you like" and more efforts to give actual information I'll declare victory.

pj
chgo
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Funny how you say and do exactly the opposite of your post when those who are skilled and knowledgeable to give actual information on the visual mechanics of aiming attempt to help others. That's when you become your most ambitious by declaring victory from tearing it down or recommending FEEL which is "just do what you like intuitively." The word "hypocrite" comes to mind.

Aside from that, this thread provides food for thought regarding the physical mechanics of motion as does the visual mechanics of eye alignment for aiming in their threads. Follow your own advice by giving respect at the appropriate time when actual information is given and you'll get respect.
 
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Correct, but as you have stated before in regards to pool being played on a table who plays like that?

Which is why this push/pull discussion will have no conclusion.


ENGLISH! said:
Hold the cue at the balance point & the load is neither in front nor behind.
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(((Satori))) said:
You are still wrong. Fran is correct when she says someone is using a pushing or pulling motion. It doesn't matter where the load is. Think of it like this. If I do a bicep curl, palms facing me... with the weight resting in front of my hands... I am pulling the weight towards me. I am pulling but the weight is being pushed. If I do the same curl with the weight hanging from a cable behind my hand... I am still pulling the weight to me but now the weight is also being pulled. In both scenarios I was pulling even though the weight was being pushed one time and pulled the other.

Again, Fran was right... Extending the arm is a pushing movement and bending is a pulling movement.
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I understand what Tony is saying. He and Bob are saying that you can only push and pull "something" and that the motion itself is not considered a push or a pull. It depends on where the item that is being pushed or pulled is located relative to the body.

When it comes to physics, I will always yield to Bob's expertise.

When it comes to defining the motion of a pool stroke, I think the load should be considered the point at which the hand meets the cue. Therefore in with a fixed elbow stroke, it is a pulling motion, with the hand being away from the body after the back swing, and the load then being pulled to the torso, where the stroke ends.

Based on that premise, with a shoulder drop prior to impact stroke, the load in the hand is pulled towards the body initially, and then pushed beyond the body.

I will continue to research the issue with my scientific friends here in town.
 
FranCrimi said:
I understand what Tony is saying. He and Bob are saying that you can only push and pull "something" and that the motion itself is not considered a push or a pull. It depends on where the item that is being pushed or pulled is located relative to the body.

When it comes to physics, I will always yield to Bob's expertise.

When it comes to defining the motion of a pool stroke, I think the load should be considered the point at which the hand meets the cue. Therefore in with a fixed elbow stroke, it is a pulling motion, with the hand being away from the body after the back swing, and the load then being pulled to the torso, where the stroke ends.

Based on that premise, with a shoulder drop prior to impact stroke, the load in the hand is pulled towards the body initially, and then pushed beyond the body.

I will continue to research the issue with my scientific friends here in town.
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Yeah, you can push and pull something and you can also use the term to describe the motion. You clearly said pushing/pulling MOTION in your post that started the debate and when reffering to the Motion, where the load is doesnt matter. What matters is 1) Where the force is being applied (the grip) and two wether the force is moving toward or away from you.

The backswing is a pushing motion no matter where the load is.
 
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