Position Play Drills?

Zphix

Zphix

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Alright guys,

After playing with my buddy Luis Galvan last night (a monster play who was in the Illiana APA/BCA league) and some of you Chicago players may know him - and I know ScottK does.

Anyway - when I was playing him last night, every 1 in like 5 games he'd finally miss a run out and I'd have about 6 balls on the table then miss my run out by about a ball.

After talking to him while playing for over 3 hours - apparently I'm at an in-between stage, where I'm an excellent shot maker and am (or close to being a was) accustomed to taking my shots where the ball ends up after my shots. But, I've getting a lot more serious about playing position yesterday and he said it takes about a year before you know how to get the CB to go or do what you want it to.

So, because the next time couple times I play him I want to be more of a threat to him - can anybody recommend some drills to practice position play? and practicing breaking clusters out?
 
If you want something random in terms of position play do the 4 or 5 ball ghost. Rack up 4 or 5 balls, break, and then take ball in hand to run out in order. Start small as in 4 balls. Once you do that 5 times in a row without missing add a ball. 5 times in a row isn't much but just enough to keep you motivated to hopefully increasing up to the 9 ball ghost. Also keep record when you miss in terms of what type of shot it was etc. At the end of your session review to see which type of shot you need to train on (notice I didn't say practice on as they are two different things).
 
Spimp13 said:
If you want something random in terms of position play do the 4 or 5 ball ghost. Rack up 4 or 5 balls, break, and then take ball in hand to run out in order. Start small as in 4 balls. Once you do that 5 times in a row without missing add a ball. 5 times in a row isn't much but just enough to keep you motivated to hopefully increasing up to the 9 ball ghost. Also keep record when you miss in terms of what type of shot it was etc. At the end of your session review to see which type of shot you need to train on (notice I didn't say practice on as they are two different things).
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I agree and after you break in 4 ball, look at the table and have a plan what pocket you are going to shoot it. You must get to the point of thinking 3 balls ahead or more. Johnnyt
 
It can take quite a while to learn how to get the CB to go where you intend. I set up a shot with say the OB 1 diamond from the long rail and 2 diamonds ip the long rail, I'll start with a cit to the right with CB at centre table. I'll place balls on all diamonds and try hit them with the CB going 1 rail. You will really notice how little side spin you need to get to all diamonds. Vary the speed you shoot too, shoot some to land dead on the target diamond and shoot some as though the target diamond had a cluster on it. After a few weeks of doing this you should have a really good understanding of where the CB is going then you can move to hitting 2 rails and landing on set diamonds on the 3rd rail and so on. Vary how the CB and OB are situated on the table.

There are certain diamond to diamond path systems that get you to a certain spot on the table but I much prefer the above to learn to understand CB travel lines.
 
Spimp13 said:
If you want something random in terms of position play do the 4 or 5 ball ghost. Rack up 4 or 5 balls, break, and then take ball in hand to run out in order. Start small as in 4 balls. Once you do that 5 times in a row without missing add a ball. 5 times in a row isn't much but just enough to keep you motivated to hopefully increasing up to the 9 ball ghost. Also keep record when you miss in terms of what type of shot it was etc. At the end of your session review to see which type of shot you need to train on (notice I didn't say practice on as they are two different things).
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I also agree with this drill. Its very helpful to help you start thinking 3 balls ahead and to start gaining control over the cue ball. I do this drill more than any other drill right now and it has helped me out dramatically. I like starting out with 4 balls because its fairly easy to run out 4 balls consistently which will also help you build confidence in your game. Best of luck and may the rolls be with you.
 
There are two aspects to position play. One is understanding the correct patterns, the other is understanding the how cue tip position and speed affect the path of the CB. Pattern play comes from trying to think through the pattern. In 8 ball, I find it works best to work backwards to forwards. Figure out which ball will be your key ball. Work backwards from there.

One of the best training drills I've found for understanding CB control is to play a carom game with 8 ball or 9 ball. Break a rack and then hit the object balls into the cb with the goal of pocketing the object balls by caroming off of the CB. You will start to get a finer understanding of the path the cued ball takes off of the struck ball. After you've gotten to where you can actually pocket some balls this way, you can then begin to consider speed and other things for positioning the CB after it is struck by the object balls to help with your next shot.

There are countless resources available for other position drills. Dr. Daves Billiards University Test is a good resource. The VEPS DVD's he sells has a lot of drills. I think it is Allan Sands (poolgods.com ?) has a very nice download that is reasonably priced and has hundreds of set ups. If you can find a set of the IPAT books/DVDS, those are great. As already mentioned, racking smaller groups of balls and playing the ghost is an excellent drill.

By the way, when are you going to post the video of you making those long runs of bank shots?
 
nobcitypool said:
By the way, when are you going to post the video of you making those long runs of bank shots?
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As soon as I'm at the poolhall with a camera - I wasn't expecting to play last night because I was over at a friends to watch anime but he was home so I ended up playing.

Before I played him (practiced solo for about 2 hours) I was banking shots and I'd say my average is right. 3-4 balls per inning with the occasional slip or longer run. It still averages to around 3-4 balls per inning with a good break.

I'll try to post it as quickly as possible.

-Richard
 
nobcitypool said:
There are two aspects to position play. One is understanding the correct patterns, the other is understanding the how cue tip position and speed affect the path of the CB. Pattern play comes from trying to think through the pattern. In 8 ball, I find it works best to work backwards to forwards. Figure out which ball will be your key ball. Work backwards from there.

One of the best training drills I've found for understanding CB control is to play a carom game with 8 ball or 9 ball. Break a rack and then hit the object balls into the cb with the goal of pocketing the object balls by caroming off of the CB. You will start to get a finer understanding of the path the cued ball takes off of the struck ball. After you've gotten to where you can actually pocket some balls this way, you can then begin to consider speed and other things for positioning the CB after it is struck by the object balls to help with your next shot.

There are countless resources available for other position drills. Dr. Daves Billiards University Test is a good resource. The VEPS DVD's he sells has a lot of drills. I think it is Allan Sands (poolgods.com ?) has a very nice download that is reasonably priced and has hundreds of set ups. If you can find a set of the IPAT books/DVDS, those are great. As already mentioned, racking smaller groups of balls and playing the ghost is an excellent drill.

By the way, when are you going to post the video of you making those long runs of bank shots?
Click to expand...

Willie Jopling was the first to publish the rules and here they are:

BILLIARD POOL, KISS POOL or LOOP

Billiard Pool is played on a pocket billiard table and should not be confused with Billiards. Its common name is Kiss Pool. This game may be played like straight pool to fifty or one-hundred points or like one pocket with the winner making eight balls out of a rack of fifteen. Loop is pool spelled backwards.

Object of Game: To strike an object ball with your cue stick and carom it off the cueball and into a pocket. You must call the pocket for each shot. The numbered ball you strike with your cue stick is the only ball you can score with. You may shoot any numbered ball on the table.

Setup: The cueball and fourteen numbered balls are racked at the foot of the table with the cueball in the rack on the foot spot. The fifteenth ball is then placed on the head spot and used as a break ball. When playing a point game such as fifty or one-hundred points, all fifteen balls are pocketed. Then the balls are re-racked as before and the shooter has the break shot to continue his run. Each break shot is always off the head spot. The total of the scores in each rack add up to fifteen.

Break: The break is to the advantage and the breaker caroms the break ball off the cueball into one of the comer pockets at the foot of the table. The breaker continues to carom numbered balls off the cueball until he either misses or scratches. Then it is your turn at the table and you may shoot any numbered ball calling the pocket for each shot.

Scratches: Generally, Straight Pool rules apply, You scratch if you: pocket the cueball; do not hit the cueball; fail to hit a rail or pocket the object ball; jump the cueball off the table. If you scratch and make a ball on the same shot you spot the one you made and you lose one for the scratch. When your opponent scratches the cueball into the pocket it is spotted and you may shoot any numbered ball on the table.

Additional Rules: The cueball is always spotted on or behind the foot spot. All numbered balls are spotted on or ahead of the head spot. The numbered ball you strike with your cue stick is the only ball you can score with. All shots must go in clean as in Bank Pool. Kisses or combinations do not count. However, double kisses on the cueball are allowed only if they are called. Any stray balls pocketed from the force of the cueball are spotted after each inning. Each ball legally pocketed is one point.

Scoring: Playing a point game like Straight Pool you are penalized a ball for each scratch or foul. Should you make a ball and scratch you spot the ball you made and take one off your score for the scratch. If you scratch without making a ball you just take one off your score. In the first rack you must keep track of your scratches and take them off your score at the end of that rack. When playing by the rack like One Pocket and you scratch you must spot the ball you made (if you made one) plus a ball for the scratch. This keeps the total scores at fifteen.

Rules by Willie Jopling
© 1978 from Willie Jopling’s Book on Pocket Billiards
 
Thanks everybody,

I'll be sure to keep all of these in mind next time I go practice for 6 hours straight.

Dr. Dave,

I'm familiar with how the cue ball reacts off the rails and OB with regards to draw, follow, and English (and all the combinations of) but it's more a matter of planning my run-out before approaching the table.

I'm fairly good with position from ball to ball, but it's a lot harder for me to plan out the entire run the way I would from ball to ball so I usually run 3-5 balls then miss a position and fail to run out.

So, I guess it's more or less visualizing what I'm going to do then make it happen - and seeing shots in advance instead of in the moment.

But I'm sure playing the 4-5 ball ghost will help a lot.
 
A simple drill I like to do is to take the cue ball and 2 object balls and toss them randomly on the table, having them bounce off a couple rails before they come to a stop. Then shoot either of the balls into any pocket and play position to hit the other ball with the cue ball. This is great for learning to break out clusters.

As far as planning out your rack, I'm sure you know about the trick of going backwards with your planning. Don't think about how to get from the 4 to the 5 to the 6 ... think about where you want to be on the 6, how you got there from the 5 and how you got to the shot on the 5 from the 4 ball. For practice planning, just pause a 9 ball match on youtube just after the break, then plan out the rack in your head from the 9 ball back all the way to the 1, then see how the pro plays it. You will learn a lot of different ways of getting from point A to point B that way.
 
So tonight I played for about an hour running racks from 4 balls on up.

Was alot tougher than I thought - after 5 balls I was only running about 40% because my position was off.

Definitely great practice though - I can already see how beneficial this is going to be.

Thanks guys,

Richard

Sent from my X501_USA_Cricket using Tapatalk 2
 
I enjoy playing the ghost, I do take notes I don't think it matters that much how many balls you use. I use 6 or 7 on a 9 foot table scattered randomly I take ball in hand plan my attack take note of what shots I didnt make or where I came short on position and work on inside english or whatever I was struggling with.

In my opinion, 4 balls isn't that much of an obstacle course for avoiding balls, keep in mind if you bump into a ball you won't get position as you would otherwise, or you make fluke position. Either way you're not going to be playing as naturally as you would with less balls.

Another thing you can do as mentioned is add balls when you find it too easy, keep in mind missing you lass ball because you missed position isn't the end of the world.

There was a tar match with Ronnie and Jayson shaw with darren appleton showing some practice drills, he had one with balls on the rail and you need to get position for the balls which is a bit beyond my skill level.

He had another where you line up the balls

1 3 5 7 8 6 4 2

The idea is only hit the end rails I can only make a few at my best.
 
Best option IMO

I was going to recommend Dr Dave but he chimed in already. Playing 4 and 5 ball run ours are good but that should come after you have an idea of what's going on, if you're shooting balls and missing but not knowing "why" you missed (or missed the position in this case) then you're lost, it's kind of hard to play a rack and then try to keep notes about things that went on in it for you to work on. You need to work on something until you understand it the try to apply it. Pidge pretty much hit the nail on the head but you were going to find that with Dr Dave, his lessons were "BY FAR" the best instructional stuff for helping my game or anyones game that is at your current level and experience IMO
 
I agree completely. You need an understanding on cue ball control and need to develop some table speed control before playing the ghost will benefit you.

Unless you set up hangers or stop shots :D:D
 
i suggest you get joe villapando's dvd pool iq1 and 2. It will greatly benefit your cueball control knowledge. His methodology is one of the best i've found.
 
Zphix said:
Dr. Dave,

I'm familiar with how the cue ball reacts off the rails and OB with regards to draw, follow, and English (and all the combinations of) but it's more a matter of planning my run-out before approaching the table.

I'm fairly good with position from ball to ball, but it's a lot harder for me to plan out the entire run the way I would from ball to ball so I usually run 3-5 balls then miss a position and fail to run out.

So, I guess it's more or less visualizing what I'm going to do then make it happen - and seeing shots in advance instead of in the moment.

But I'm sure playing the 4-5 ball ghost will help a lot.
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You might also find the following resources useful:

8-ball run-out strategy
9/10/15-ball run-out strategy

Beyond that, and the stuff I shared previously, it's all about:

Practice, Practice, Practice!

Ghost drills are definitely good practice, as long as you work on the shots and position plays that give you trouble when they come up.

Good luck,
Dave

PS: Have you tried the Billiard Universtiy (BU) Exams yet? If not, check them out. They offer a very well-rounded and efficient pool workout. If you do try the exams, please consider posting your scores (and videos if available) on the AZB BU thread.
 
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Alright guys,

Something I've been finding helpful is going to pool.bz and having the computer break 8-ball racks then drawing the table out on paper, and planning my run out on paper then going to the poolhall and practicing that exact set up.

Currently, I've got a folder/binder with about 25 8-ball rack positions, as well over 30 pages of rail kick systems, track lines, track ratios, etc. Lots of stuff I'm practicing but position is taking precedence.

-Richard
 
Zphix said:
Currently, I've got a folder/binder with about 25 8-ball rack positions, as well over 30 pages of rail kick systems, track lines, track ratios, etc. Lots of stuff I'm practicing but position is taking precedence.
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FYI, the three levels of BU Exam II have 18 8-ball and 9-ball patterns worth practicing if you want to add them to you binder.

The following VEPP support documents also contain a large collection of 8-ball and 9-ball practice patterns if you want even more for your binder:

8-ball Clinic handout
9-ball Clinic handout

Enjoy,
Dave
 
dr_dave said:
FYI, the three levels of BU Exam II have 18 8-ball and 9-ball patterns worth practicing if you want to add them to you binder.

The following VEPP support documents also contain a large collection of 8-ball and 9-ball practice patterns if you want even more for your binder:

8-ball Clinic handout
9-ball Clinic handout

Enjoy,
Dave
Click to expand...

I definitely will - I'm glad you reminded me! =P

Also, I'm hoping to take the BU Exam sometime soon (probably after Father's Day).

Thanks again Dr. Dave,

-Richard
 
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