position play off the rails: precision versus feel

dchan320

dchan320

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have a question that has been on my mind for awhile and not sure where to go with it.

So the notion of 'natural' shape, play the tangent line, into the shape zone, all seem very logical and all... however, executing on it is a completely different animal for me. I may see the natural shape for the next shoot, but end up out of line more often than staying in. It becomes very apparent when I try to take a path off the rail to break a cluster, play CB safety, or thread between objects that I realize I have no idea what I'm doing. It's been all feel - hit or miss even with ball in hand. :) Just don't think about where I'm targeting the CB after OB contact to hit a specific spot on the rail.

My question is do high caliber players during their pre-shot routine put focus on pinpointed rail contact or is it more muscle memory with a lot of table time practice? It takes me a lot of concentration to attempt pinpointing every CB rail contact, so I'm wondering if it's something I should continue focusing on all shots or let trial-n-error through mass repetition figure itself out. I do see on match play when a pro has tricky position for the next shot focus is illustrated. They will use their cue to point at rails and angles, walk around the table a few times, etc... but hardly every see that done for wide open obstacle-free shots. Maybe it's too much concentration for every shot and a general area on the rail is 90% good enough.

What's the good advice about this?

Thanks in advance.

Doug
 
Using rail targets (picking a spot for the CB to hit) is a huge step in playing position well. You're going to screw up a lot of run outs if you don't at least have an idea of where you're going to hit on the rail after contact. Especially with multi-rail position.

It can really limit your scratches, as long as you're fairly accurate. I believe in trying to be as accurate as possible at hitting the rail target, but I don't believe in absolute perfection. It's nice to be perfect, but we're all humans and are bound to make a mistake. So instead, I like to give myself a margin of error. Usually a ball's width on either side of the target.

In the diagram below, it's a simple 3 rail shape from the 7 to the 8. There's other ways to get shape, specifically going 2 rails instead, and completely taking the side pocket out of the equation. However, for this example, I'm using 3 rails. I've marked my margin of error using the 1-6 balls.

1ysNg8U-7V7neb_p-prb.png
 
dchan320 said:
I have a question that has been on my mind for awhile and not sure where to go with it.

So the notion of 'natural' shape, play the tangent line, into the shape zone, all seem very logical and all... however, executing on it is a completely different animal for me. I may see the natural shape for the next shoot, but end up out of line more often than staying in. It becomes very apparent when I try to take a path off the rail to break a cluster, play CB safety, or thread between objects that I realize I have no idea what I'm doing. It's been all feel - hit or miss even with ball in hand. :) Just don't think about where I'm targeting the CB after OB contact to hit a specific spot on the rail.

My question is do high caliber players during their pre-shot routine put focus on pinpointed rail contact or is it more muscle memory with a lot of table time practice? It takes me a lot of concentration to attempt pinpointing every CB rail contact, so I'm wondering if it's something I should continue focusing on all shots or let trial-n-error through mass repetition figure itself out. I do see on match play when a pro has tricky position for the next shot focus is illustrated. They will use their cue to point at rails and angles, walk around the table a few times, etc... but hardly every see that done for wide open obstacle-free shots. Maybe it's too much concentration for every shot and a general area on the rail is 90% good enough.

What's the good advice about this?

Thanks in advance.

Doug
Click to expand...

Doug, I remember reading somewhere that there's no such thing as muscle memory. I'm inclined to believe that, but there is such a thing as 'memory'. You're right in that at a very high level, it's feel and memory.

Players do have different ways of practicing to get to that point, though. I think that the best way for you get there depends on your personality and how you assimilate information.

Some are very technically oriented and like to be more precise and conscious of every move. Others are happy just playing and allowing the trial and error process run it's course. Many are a combination of both.

The key, though, is table time, and lots of it. Nothing replaces that, and ultimately, you should be striving for feel and memory at the end of the road.
 
BeiberLvr said:
Using rail targets (picking a spot for the CB to hit) is a huge step in playing position well. You're going to screw up a lot of run outs if you don't at least have an idea of where you're going to hit on the rail after contact. Especially with multi-rail position.

It can really limit your scratches, as long as you're fairly accurate. I believe in trying to be as accurate as possible at hitting the rail target, but I don't believe in absolute perfection. It's nice to be perfect, but we're all humans and are bound to make a mistake. So instead, I like to give myself a margin of error. Usually a ball's width on either side of the target.

In the diagram below, it's a simple 3 rail shape from the 7 to the 8. There's other ways to get shape, specifically going 2 rails instead, and completely taking the side pocket out of the equation. However, for this example, I'm using 3 rails. I've marked my margin of error using the 1-6 balls.
Click to expand...

I'm on board with having some idea of where the CB is going to contact the rail. The ball's width on each side as a margin of error is a great idea. I'm going to make a mental note to do that.

You just brought up another issue I have and that is consideration for the 2nd or 3rd rail which really hasn't part of the equation. The diagram is a good example. As 'simple' as you say the 3 rail position is, I'm sure after 10 tries I might get it once to within 6" from where the final resting spot is on the picture. The problem is I'm going to let it go wherever on the 2nd/3rd rail without thought. Wouldn't rule out a side pocket scratch either in my attempts.

Well, I've been draining myself mentally with precision focused rail targets and will be looking at a half-diamond's width margin of error to see how it goes.

Thanks for taking the time to draft the shot diagram too.

-Doug
 
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FranCrimi said:
Doug, I remember reading somewhere that there's no such thing as muscle memory. I'm inclined to believe that, but there is such a thing as 'memory'. You're right in that at a very high level, it's feel and memory.

Players do have different ways of practicing to get to that point, though. I think that the best way for you get there depends on your personality and how you assimilate information.

Some are very technically oriented and like to be more precise and conscious of every move. Others are happy just playing and allowing the trial and error process run it's course. Many are a combination of both.

The key, though, is table time, and lots of it. Nothing replaces that, and ultimately, you should be striving for feel and memory at the end of the road.
Click to expand...

I would like to think I'm a combination of both. Happy just playing while having the knowledge to apply a more precise move. A self pat on the shoulder when it goes as planned technically.

Glad to know feel and memory is what I should be striving for. Complete precision is quite the drain and more frustrating than fun to be honest. Thought mabe it'll pay off at the end, but with limited practice time on my part - not going to happen. As I've been taught to stay down on the shoot to see my errors, I don't quite see the errors in positioning. Quick to say "opps" and move on. Knowing how to play the rails is something I definitely need work on and not just simply use them to bounce around the table.

Appreciate the insight. More table time works for me.

-Doug
 
muscle memory

dchan320 said:
I'm on board with having some idea of where the CB is going to contact the rail. The ball's width on each side as a margin of error is a great idea. I'm going to make a mental note to do that.

You just brought up another issue I have and that is consideration for the 2nd or 3rd rail which really hasn't part of the equation. The diagram is a good example. As 'simple' as you say the 3 rail position is, I'm sure after 10 tries I might get it once to within 6" from where the final resting spot is on the picture. The problem is I'm going to let it go wherever on the 2nd/3rd rail without thought. Wouldn't rule out a side pocket scratch either in my attempts.

Well, I've been draining myself mentally with precision focused rail targets and will be looking at a half-diamond's width margin of error to see how it goes.

Thanks for taking the time to draft the shot diagram too.

-Doug
Click to expand...

Generally speaking, one cannot separate actions (movements) by muscles from the brain.

Memories are not "contained" in muscles, although many cellular biologists talk about cellular memory, which many equate with "race" memory or "instinct".

Our memories are the result of information from the senses being recorded for future reference, including how we think about those memories. When you strike a cue ball firmly and it travels farther than when you hit it softly, the muscles and the nervous system send the message to the brain. The information may be brought up consciously, as with a game plan, or subconsciously, as when you strike the cue ball with the desired force without thinking about it. This is sometimes called "muscle memory". While perhaps not scientifically accurate, the term "muscle memory" is useful in describing the subconscious (sometimes called "unconscious") actions of the mind as they produce physical (muscular) actions.

Efren tells us that he learned the diamond system early on, but no longer uses it, because he now "sees" the angles and targets without thinking about any system.

In other words, he's subconsciously using the system. When he plays one of his incredible safeties, he's not using a formula to strike the CB with the correct force, he subconsciously "remembers" how much force is needed. This is what I, and many others would refer to as "muscle memory", - memories that our muscles and nerves have recorded in our memory bank that require little or no conscious effort to access and use. Another way to describe "muscle memory" is messages going back and forth between the muscles and the brain, without being put consciously into words ("I need to hit this shot harder than the previous shot").

We can waste time debating semantics, or recognize that "feel" is the result of both physical and mental experience...not so much something we learn as something we gain through experience. By being "aware" or conscious of what the balls are doing when you set them In motion, including what they can do when striking other balls or rails, you build up a memory bank that eventually allows you to see and do things "automatically".
 
Track Lines

3 cushion will make life easier.
Sending the cue ball into any angle(Or creating an Angle) using rails or no rails is easier when using track lines.
You have line in and line out for aiming (simple as it can be), then you have the natural tangent. With stroke and spin (Or no spin) you alter the tangent to the track line you desire. If you do not need to alter the tangent then apply accordingly.
Looking at the last rail coming in is...whether it is 1,2,3, or a lay up....it does not matter, Your cue ball will be on track.

It is all visual, It takes milliseconds to see. All it takes is 2 eyes and 1/2 brain,apply execution.
Clutter the brain with clutter and expect just that..a cluttered execution.
So many people complicate this game to no end. I think they do so much research they miss what is right over their nose (their eyes) I think some think it puts them in the Mensa Elite of Billiard Education and Instruction.

I believe any information on what happens on a pool table is fantastic work.
I also believe a large portion of it is overkill and useless.
Most of it can be used so Astronauts enter the earths atmosphere on the proper angle and don't explode.

Sincerely : SS
 
Pick a spot "outside" of the rail..... a mirror image of where you want the CB to end up off the 1st rail.
For 2 rail shape, the angle off the first rail can be determined by where you want the CB to hit the 2nd.
 
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While nobody has even mentioned it, I believe your stroke process needs work (you mentioned yourself that you're not sure/conscious of where you're hitting the CB, and thus finding it difficult to predict CB path). Pretty difficult to practice things, trying to gauge what will happen until you can strike the CB accurately. Trial and error will get you there eventually, if you are doing disciplined practice (something with an achievable goal and a measurable result). A lesson from an instructor who does video analysis would likely to do wonders for you.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
 
SmoothStroke said:
3 cushion will make life easier.
Click to expand...

Maybe more complicated. I do agree if you're issue is angle off a rail that caroms will help, but a 3C table is bigger and so are the balls.

IMO like the speed control drill you should work on this stuff on one specific table then when on a different table you have a standard to compare against. One thing I find most people don't do is figure out exactly where to hit the CB to create exactly a desired outcome. High Right, Low Left is meaningless. How Much is the question.

I going to mention a game I've brought up before. A carom/pocketing game on a pool table. Great for practicing CB control on a pool table.
See post #9 http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=345963&highlight=bastard+billiards

You can add rules to this game and why not. NEW RULE: Caroms must include at least 1 rail before the second ball is contacted.

Oh and by the way I'm not saying not to get on a 3C table. Everyone is welcome over on that side of town.
 
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Agree

3kushn said:
Maybe more complicated. I do agree if you're issue is angle off a rail that caroms will help, but a 3C table is bigger and so are the balls.

IMO like the speed control drill you should work on this stuff on one specific table then when on a different table you have a standard to compare against. One thing I find most people do is figure out exactly where to hit the CB to create exactly a desired outcome. High Right, Low Left is meaningless. How Much is the question.

I going to mention a game I've brought up before. A carom/pocketing game on a pool table. Great for practicing CB control on a pool table.
See post #9 http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=345963&highlight=bastard+billiards

You can add rules to this game and why not. NEW RULE: Caroms must include at least 1 rail before the second ball is contacted.

Oh and by the way I'm not saying not to get on a 3C table. Everyone is welcome over on that side of town.
Click to expand...

Maybe I should have said to get on a billiard table, 3 balls, play straight rail or any rails, no obstacles, no pockets, learn to see track lines easier, learn the stroke and to get in those lines,
To me it makes it a heck of a lot easier to see it and learn it. I think it's much easier to learn how to cut across the angle into the track, which is the most difficult line to find (yet simple when you know how)

I agree the table is larger but track lines are track lines on any table, they are always the same to find.

The idea is to be able to get in track, quick and simple.

Hitting the cue ball where intended with everything that goes along with it is a given. Without that you can go to Church for the next 100 years and still have to pray 8 days week.

You can practice this on a pool table, park bench, car hood, clip board.
Sincerely: SS
 
SmoothStroke said:
Maybe I should have said to get on a billiard table, 3 balls, play straight rail or any rails, no obstacles, no pockets, learn to see track lines easier, learn the stroke and to get in those lines,
To me it makes it a heck of a lot easier to see it and learn it. I think it's much easier to learn how to cut across the angle into the track, which is the most difficult line to find (yet simple when you know how)

I agree the table is larger but track lines are track lines on any table, they are always the same to find.

The idea is to be able to get in track, quick and simple.

Hitting the cue ball where intended with everything that goes along with it is a given. Without that you can go to Church for the next 100 years and still have to pray 8 days week.

You can practice this on a pool table, park bench, car hood, clip board.
Sincerely: SS
Click to expand...

I was just pointing out that getting to the second rail or achieving a line off the first could be different on a carom table than a pool table, the line off the second and 3rd is even more difficult to replicate pool table angles, disregarding the ball size difference. Its unfortunate IMO that rarely do pool tables comply with 3C systems.

Getting to the first rail of course will be no different.
 
Saturday afternoons is about all I have to spend on the table. The joys of raising a 2yr old daughter and family. Not being sarcastic as I'm grateful for the time I have with both. This makes lessons difficult, but I'd love to have weekly lessons if my schedule was more accomodating.

I agree "feel" is the result of both physical and mental experience. Just want to include better planning to my position play than relying on shot making.

Good suggestion on track lines. Maybe start with 3-4 balls width in the beginning and slowly fine tune it. Playing 3 cushion would be the fastest way to develop seeing track lines since it's used on every shot, but I'll stick to a 9' pocket table for now.

Is it Saturday yet? A lot of good info from everyone...
 
Understood

3kushn said:
I was just pointing out that getting to the second rail or achieving a line off the first could be different on a carom table than a pool table, the line off the second and 3rd is even more difficult to replicate pool table angles, disregarding the ball size difference. Its unfortunate IMO that rarely do pool tables comply with 3C systems.

Getting to the first rail of course will be no different.
Click to expand...

I understand what you are saying. I am saying no system required here. Just visual track lines as in the diagram that BeiberLvr posted. It is a perfect example of a track line into the position, although as simple as it gets, yet easy to screw up if you don't know what to look for and how to find it in milliseconds.

If the 8 ball in that diagram is sitting in a different position then the player must find the track line. They may not be going into the long rail as the diagram shows, they may have to draw off the bottom rail short with spin, at that point they are cutting across the natural and must create the track line, which is a little more difficult, but simple when you can visualize the track

My feeling is to just find the track (Visually), with thickness of hit, stroke, spin, send the cue ball into the track. Keeping it as simple as possible

Being a 3-C player I believe you know what I am talking about.

Sincerely: SS
 
One thing I learned is to visualize how fast the cue ball should be moving when it hits the rail. Sometimes, simply picking a spot on the rail will cause you to subconsciously leave the cueball on the rail at that exact point because that's where you aimed.
 
3kushn said:
I was just pointing out that getting to the second rail or achieving a line off the first could be different on a carom table than a pool table, the line off the second and 3rd is even more difficult to replicate pool table angles, disregarding the ball size difference. Its unfortunate IMO that rarely do pool tables comply with 3C systems.
Getting to the first rail of course will be no different.
Click to expand...

i tend to disagre respecfully
the conti or corner five system works on a pool table except instead of 5/3/2 to the corner its 5/2/3 (or close to those numbers)
and seatle kids compensations also work
the tracks then diverge from 3 instead of 2 similar to how they do on a billiard table
2 rail kicks using the plus system works without modification
the reverse english systems to double the rail work the same also
most of my kicking is based on billiard systems
jmho
icbw
im not an instructor
 
FranCrimi said:
Doug, I remember reading somewhere that there's no such thing as muscle memory. I'm inclined to believe that, but there is such a thing as 'memory'. You're right in that at a very high level, it's feel and memory.

Players do have different ways of practicing to get to that point, though. I think that the best way for you get there depends on your personality and how you assimilate information.

Some are very technically oriented and like to be more precise and conscious of every move. Others are happy just playing and allowing the trial and error process run it's course. Many are a combination of both.

The key, though, is table time, and lots of it. Nothing replaces that, and ultimately, you should be striving for feel and memory at the end of the road.
Click to expand...

Fran, there's no such thing as muscle memory at the cellular level, but a lot of research has been done on how repetitious actions are encoded in the brain. It's very different than how thoughts are turned into memory, and it even uses an entirely different part of the brain. Which may be why it's not a good idea to do your thinking while you are making the shot. Wires are bound to get crossed.

FWIW here's a very interesting write up from our friends at Wiki. I have only skimmed it so far, but it looks to be a fairly robust article, scientifically speaking.


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_memory
 
Sloppy Pockets said:
Fran, there's no such thing as muscle memory at the cellular level, but a lot of research has been done on how repetitious actions are encoded in the brain. It's very different than how thoughts are turned into memory, and it even uses an entirely different part of the brain. Which may be why it's not a good idea to do your thinking while you are making the shot. Wires are bound to get crossed.

FWIW here's a very interesting write up from our friends at Wiki. I have only skimmed it so far, but it looks to be a fairly robust article, scientifically speaking.


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_memory
Click to expand...



Thanks. Good info. I think the term 'muscle memory' has been so ingrained into our vocabulary that it seems the scientific community is compelled to explain '....this is what people really mean when they use that term......'

I think the unconscious learning part of the process that the wiki article is referring to is what I would describe as developing one's feel.

Back to what I wrote before, memory and feel. Right?
 
First question: how good are you at being able to get the cue ball to go the natural (tangent) line from all distances? most players I know are good at this from short distances, but the farther away you get the harder for them to accurately get the 'tangent line' and then its even harder yet to have the correct speed from these long distances.

Second question: how good are you at predicting the path of the cue ball when using draw or follow? There are a couple simple methods that I can explain to you to help with this if needed.

Third question: Are you playing position to an exact spot on the table? I've helped many players with position play by getting away from the idea of 'perfect position' and more as position zones or shapes. With these zones or shapes you then find the most natural way to play position into the larger area of the zone (that way if you are short or long you still have a shot). For most decent players, they can make almost all easy to moderate difficulty shots as long as they don't have to "Do To Much" with the cue ball. Sometimes taking the higher percentage shot/position which leaves you a shot is much better than forcing something making your shot at hand a lower percentage shot/position which will leave you perfect on the next ball. Think of playing percentages and the percentage isn't just making the ball but the position as well.
 
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