Position Play

I've been playing for an awful long time. I personally use quite a bit of english but I do it almost unconsciously now. I know, people are going to say that my previous post said just the opposite. My previous post, not using english if you can help it, was aimed to help a newbie to the game. You have to learn to crawl before you can walk. Everyone had to start sometime and when they do, they should get stop, follow and draw down pat before they try to use english, imho. If you ask a pro what type of stroke or english he/she used right after a shot, they might not be able to tell you because they are way past that level of play. I was practicing next to Nick Varner in Reno and another player asked him how he hit a certain shot and he looked at him quizzically and said, "Gee, I don't know, I just shot it."

Another thing about english, I don't think a lot of pros need to hit the cb at the extreme outside edges because their stroke is so good they don't need to. I would counsel new players to work on your stroke the most. Very good players will say on occasion that when they were playing their best, they were in "dead stroke". Your stroke which is your ability to stroke through the cb giving you the ability to stop the cb on a dime, draw the cb the length of the table and still make the shot or make the cb follow the ob to a spot you wanted to land on is critical to becoming a good player imo.

As far as the different shafts are concerned, I wouldn't be too concerned with that. The great players can shoot lights out with a house cue.



sarahrousey said:
drivermaker you speak the truth about Efren. I think to answer your question about why people want to complicate things by using english has to be that 1) it looks really cool when you use alot of english or 2) they think it means they are at a higher level by using it. Some people swear that every shot requires english and others do not. I think using left or right english on every shot is way too complicated. Maybe the use of laminated shafts has changed the way things are done. It makes it much easier to use english than a regular shaft. That is just my opinion though. What is everyone else's opinion about that?

Sarah
 
Rickw said:
I've been playing for an awful long time. I personally use quite a bit of english but I do it almost unconsciously now. I know, people are going to say that my previous post said just the opposite. My previous post, not using english if you can help it, was aimed to help a newbie to the game. You have to learn to crawl before you can walk. Everyone had to start sometime and when they do, they should get stop, follow and draw down pat before they try to use english, imho. If you ask a pro what type of stroke or english he/she used right after a shot, they might not be able to tell you because they are way past that level of play. I was practicing next to Nick Varner in Reno and another player asked him how he hit a certain shot and he looked at him quizzically and said, "Gee, I don't know, I just shot it."

Another thing about english, I don't think a lot of pros need to hit the cb at the extreme outside edges because their stroke is so good they don't need to. I would counsel new players to work on your stroke the most. Very good players will say on occasion that when they were playing their best, they were in "dead stroke". Your stroke which is your ability to stroke through the cb giving you the ability to stop the cb on a dime, draw the cb the length of the table and still make the shot or make the cb follow the ob to a spot you wanted to land on is critical to becoming a good player imo.

As far as the different shafts are concerned, I wouldn't be too concerned with that. The great players can shoot lights out with a house cue.

Rick,
Excellent post. The experience you had with Nick Varner is dead on, I'll bet the majority of pro's are similar. When I first started taking lessons (from 2 touring pro's) I noticed a very similar phenomenon. While playing a game with them I would ask before every shot how to shoot it. If the shot required any tricky English they NEVER answered, they just walked to the table, lined up the shot as if they were going to shoot, then told me exactly how much English and how hard to shoot to get the desired position. Neither pro had a great idea how to build a good stroke in a total spaz like me (though I think teachers like Mark Wilson and Jerry Briesath could train anyone to have a great, repeatable stroke), but to hear these players think aloud as they play is worth any price.
 
Rick, you gave good advice for a beginner. Getting the stop, draw and follow down before trying anything too tricky. It completely changes things when it comes to using extreme english. As for being able to teach a good stroke and explain the things I am doing, I can't. I usually can't remember what I have done because it just seems natural. I learned to play straight pool because Tom Karabotsos can talk and run a ton of points at the same time. He told me everything he was doing so it was easy for me to learn.

Willie, you have the benefit of having Jeanette in your area. I have been around her when she is practicing and she talks aloud and kind of explains to herself what is going on. I agree that it is hard for the top pros to teach because most of them it is natural (yes, there are exceptions). I am convinced though that teachers like Mark and Jerry can teach anyone how to have a good, consistant stroke.

Sarah
 
Hi Sarah , Sorry it has taken a few days to respond but I have very busy with my school. Hope you understand. Also Congrats on another great finish in Viking tour tournament and good luck in vegas. Now on using Side Spin left or right. Less is Better! When I start working with my students we do a Video Analysis and as I do this I like to watch them shoot some balls . Everyone and I mean everyone I've worked with will always use some sort of side spin on every shot! After they get done shooting, I like to ask them why! They don't know why and because everyone does. Wow what a statement there huh. All my students do stroke drills in every class and its a 3 step process. standing up one handed, next step is taking a step forword and putting down their hand and the 3rd step is working on the Stroketrainer for 10 to 15 minutes depending on the student. Stroke Drills are so important because we want them to develope a great stroke!
Once you develope a proper stroke, cueing the cue ball becomes easier and more accurate in ball making and position play. You will use less Side Spin ! In tip position every eighth of an inch left , right , top and bottom does something .With that in mind I try not to use no more then a 1/2 inch left or right . One of the drills I like to use is a simple off angle shot . I want them to use nothing but center of the cue ball and that means I want them to start at the very top and work down the cue ball every eighth of an inch. Then mark where the cue ball goes. This process is done a few times . Then I have them do it again but this time they must put a piece of paper down and get on it. They are simply amazed as to what the centerline of the cue ball will do.
I showed Sarah what 1 eighth of right side spin could do. Here is what I showed her to try , put the cue ball on the spot, put the object ball in line with the left side of the corner pocket(using right corner pocket) around the 1st diamond area.Now line up to shoot the shot with top to make it in corner then move the tip over a eighth of inch. Now with a good stroke shoot the object ball into the corner with the cue ball going inside of the 1st diamond with lots of side spin and doubleing out the corner.Please note that the cue ball stays inside of 1st diamond making a real tight spin area. I hope you could follow what i'm trying to say, it's easier to show you and have you do it as for me to write it down. Hope this helps ! I've been teaching now some 17 years and 14 years professionally and that's what I do for a living. Thanks
 
Thank you very much Denny. I was going to try to explain but I figured it would be much easier to let the person who knows what they are talking about explain. I think it was a great explanation and hopefully it will help everyone.

I hope all has been well with you and your family. Take care.

Sarah
 
I don't use very much english, but I sure use draw a lot. Perhaps too much... Draw versus follow is yet another debate in positional game which probably deserves its own thread, but I thought it would be better to just continue here...

In the last year or so I've managed to get my stroke to be stable enough to do long draws with relative ease. But there was just one problem with it...I got completely addicted to it. Somehow I thought it wasn't enough to simply pocket a ball and get a good angle on the next one...it had to be "visually attractive" too. All that resulted in a very incosistant game...a few great shots, and then there is either a loss of position, a complete snooker, or even a scratch.

Lately I've been trying to discipline myself. I play much more simple centerball stop shots, even follow shots...I try to go the simpler route, natural shape...be less agressive. But still, every once in a while that old "draw bug" gets to me, and I start to play "attractive" once again. I can't help it sometimes...

If you count center ball stop shots as draw strokes too, nowdays I probably shoot around 75% or so draw shots. Isn't that a bit too much? Should it be closer to 50?

I wonder what everyone with better pool knowledge and Sarah especially would think on draw versus follow as far as positional game goes? Should there be any preference at all?
 
predator said:
I don't use very much english, but I sure use draw a lot. Perhaps too much... Draw versus follow is yet another debate in positional game which probably deserves its own thread, but I thought it would be better to just continue here...

In the last year or so I've managed to get my stroke to be stable enough to do long draws with relative ease. But there was just one problem with it...I got completely addicted to it. Somehow I thought it wasn't enough to simply pocket a ball and get a good angle on the next one...it had to be "visually attractive" too. All that resulted in a very incosistant game...a few great shots, and then there is either a loss of position, a complete snooker, or even a scratch.

Lately I've been trying to discipline myself. I play much more simple centerball stop shots, even follow shots...I try to go the simpler route, natural shape...be less agressive. But still, every once in a while that old "draw bug" gets to me, and I start to play "attractive" once again. I can't help it sometimes...

If you count center ball stop shots as draw strokes too, nowdays I probably shoot around 75% or so draw shots. Isn't that a bit too much? Should it be closer to 50?

I wonder what everyone with better pool knowledge and Sarah especially would think on draw versus follow as far as positional game goes? Should there be any preference at all?

Dude, I totaly feel ya. When I first developed that sweet draw stroke, I was hooked, i drew with everything. I think you answered a lot of your own questions though.
Just a few thoughts, and mind you I am not the best but i am an intense student of the game saw I know what the experts tell me. Follow is easier to judge speed with then draw. Meaning you, for the most part, stop closer on a dime with follow then with draw. But the natural angle will answer those questions you may have. And one more note,
you may want to start playing where instead of getting an a "visually attractive" leave or an easier/straight in shot, play position for positon on the shot after that. So many times to I have a mental lapse and I get great shape on a ball but then stop and scrath my head and say"now how the hell do I get on the next ball from hear, what was I thinking.

I need to work on thinking 3-4 ball further ahead.

Cheers
(I am signing off with cheers for at least a while now)
Jordan
 
Try aiming for a side of the pocket. This throws alot of beginners off when using position play. If you are off by just an inch of where the OB falls in the pocket, it can make a huge difference where the cueball will go. Here is an example. When you hit the ball thin, it should scratch. Hit it thick, and it will hit the rail nearly a foot from the pocket.

example:

START(
%A[4X4%Pb4Q0%U\0Z8%V[7X6%W\2W0%Xa6Q3%YG1Z1%ZZ7W6%[Z7[3%\[0X6
%]F0T7%^[0W5
)END
 
Hi guys. Predator you bring up a good point. I think everyone has it in them to like the draw shots for the show part of it. It's an almost sure way to say "hey look what I can do!". To answer your question about using too much draw, it is mostly a personal preference. If you feel more comfortable using draw that use it. Although in my opinion it is harder to control. I think follow works much better with natural angles. Draw causes you to force the balls in majority of the time. But, like I said, it is a personal preference and whatever is more comfortable.

I think it is ok to show off every once in a while. Just don't get too carried away :)

Sarah
 
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