Possible solution for Chuck Bobbitt?

Garth Bair

Garth Bair

Maker of OnQcases
Most businesses have lines of credit and/or good banking relations. Most Owners have friends that they can borrow monies from for a short time...at least once. Given the lack of response and time elapsed I would assume that Chuck Bobbitt is out of immediate options.

I think the pool players came with expectations that if they played their hearts out they could earn monies to support their private lives/responsibilities.

It was a great tournament. Look at the number of pros and high level players assembled at one time and at one place for all to watch. Greatest pool event that I have seen in AZ. and they were cheated out of their monies...included was a TD that did an excellant job...professional job of running this event...he was also not paid.
There are those of us in Arizona that could "float" the monies necessary for the players and TD to be paid...given we would receive gauranteed collateral from Chuck Bobbitt insuring that we would be repaid within a reasonable time...with interest. The more individuals willing to form this group would result in less needed from each to cover the bad checks.
Obviously, this would take setup and coordination. It would take communication with Chuck.
It would take some work setting the program up but I do not see much difficulty...member comittment of individual funds, set up bank account, meeting with Bobbitt, secure a legal document of collatoral and promissory note, receive from players and TD bounced checks and distribute funds. Any thoughts? Anyone interested in persuing this? Garth
 
Garth Bair said:
Most businesses have lines of credit and/or good banking relations. Most Owners have friends that they can borrow monies from for a short time...at least once. Given the lack of response and time elapsed I would assume that Chuck Bobbitt is out of immediate options.

I think the pool players came with expectations that if they played their hearts out they could earn monies to support their private lives/responsibilities.

It was a great tournament. Look at the number of pros and high level players assembled at one time and at one place for all to watch. Greatest pool event that I have seen in AZ. and they were cheated out of their monies...included was a TD that did an excellant job...professional job of running this event...he was also not paid.
There are those of us in Arizona that could "float" the monies necessary for the players and TD to be paid...given we would receive gauranteed collateral from Chuck Bobbitt insuring that we would be repaid within a reasonable time...with interest. The more individuals willing to form this group would result in less needed from each to cover the bad checks.
Obviously, this would take setup and coordination. It would take communication with Chuck.
It would take some work setting the program up but I do not see much difficulty...member comittment of individual funds, set up bank account, meeting with Bobbitt, secure a legal document of collatoral and promissory note, receive from players and TD bounced checks and distribute funds. Any thoughts? Anyone interested in persuing this? Garth
Click to expand...

If someone is willing to help Chuck by doing this, it would be great for the poolplayers.

If it was a friend of mine who did this, that had did nothing but good in the past, I would for sure talk to him and find out what's wrong. There are probably many different reasons and private problems behind this mess, and perhaps helps from friends can push him back on track...

Anyway, Chuck has burned the bridges to the poolcommunity. He will not have any more trust if he decides to put up another tourney, but I doubt he will ever try it again.

As a stranger to Chuck, I would NEVER help him out of this. As a friend, I think I would have done my best to help him.
 
Garth Bair said:
Most businesses have lines of credit and/or good banking relations. Most Owners have friends that they can borrow monies from for a short time...at least once. Given the lack of response and time elapsed I would assume that Chuck Bobbitt is out of immediate options.

I think the pool players came with expectations that if they played their hearts out they could earn monies to support their private lives/responsibilities.

It was a great tournament. Look at the number of pros and high level players assembled at one time and at one place for all to watch. Greatest pool event that I have seen in AZ. and they were cheated out of their monies...included was a TD that did an excellant job...professional job of running this event...he was also not paid.
There are those of us in Arizona that could "float" the monies necessary for the players and TD to be paid...given we would receive gauranteed collateral from Chuck Bobbitt insuring that we would be repaid within a reasonable time...with interest. The more individuals willing to form this group would result in less needed from each to cover the bad checks.
Obviously, this would take setup and coordination. It would take communication with Chuck.
It would take some work setting the program up but I do not see much difficulty...member comittment of individual funds, set up bank account, meeting with Bobbitt, secure a legal document of collatoral and promissory note, receive from players and TD bounced checks and distribute funds. Any thoughts? Anyone interested in persuing this? Garth
Click to expand...

I don't know you Garth, but you're a good man!
 
Garth Bair said:
Most businesses have lines of credit and/or good banking relations. Most Owners have friends that they can borrow monies from for a short time...at least once. Given the lack of response and time elapsed I would assume that Chuck Bobbitt is out of immediate options.

I think the pool players came with expectations that if they played their hearts out they could earn monies to support their private lives/responsibilities.

It was a great tournament. Look at the number of pros and high level players assembled at one time and at one place for all to watch. Greatest pool event that I have seen in AZ. and they were cheated out of their monies...included was a TD that did an excellant job...professional job of running this event...he was also not paid.
There are those of us in Arizona that could "float" the monies necessary for the players and TD to be paid...given we would receive gauranteed collateral from Chuck Bobbitt insuring that we would be repaid within a reasonable time...with interest. The more individuals willing to form this group would result in less needed from each to cover the bad checks.
Obviously, this would take setup and coordination. It would take communication with Chuck.
It would take some work setting the program up but I do not see much difficulty...member comittment of individual funds, set up bank account, meeting with Bobbitt, secure a legal document of collatoral and promissory note, receive from players and TD bounced checks and distribute funds. Any thoughts? Anyone interested in persuing this? Garth
Click to expand...

Garth

This sounds like a great idea. If you need any help setting this up - or help using an objective mediator to communicate with all involved parties, let me know.

David Sapolis
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Another solution is for the Arizona prosecutors office in Phoenix to call Chuck up and tell him they have a charging document in front of them they plan to file if restitution is not figured out by such and such a date. In my experience as a defense lawyer, its amazing how people can suddenly raise money when the choice is either pay off or go to jail. Suddenly assets that were once untouchable become liquid.
 
uwate said:
Another solution is for the Arizona prosecutors office in Phoenix to call Chuck up and tell him they have a charging document in front of them they plan to file if restitution is not figured out by such and such a date. In my experience as a defense lawyer, its amazing how people can suddenly raise money when the choice is either pay off or go to jail. Suddenly assets that were once untouchable become liquid.
Click to expand...

As a lawyer, you know that the degree of aggression on the part of the local prosecuters...and juries...vary dramatically from one county to the next...sometimes even within the same state.

I lived in Colorado Springs years ago (El Paso County) and the DA's office there had a dedicated check fraud unit that would call bad check writers for ANY amount.

In Chicago...either DuPage or Cook Counties...the State's Attorneys would stop just short of laughing in your face when you filed a complaint about almost any amount.

As you know, there are civil and criminal versions of fraud and INTENT is a huge issue.

As has been reported, many players had their checks bounce when their prize checks bounced and when that happened they were certainly not guilty of either civil or criminal fraud.

In Chicago, I had the SA decline to prosecute a person who wrote a check for $1,200.00 on an account that had be CLOSED FOR A YEAR!

Why? Because, I was told, the defense attorney would promote the defense that the person just took the wrong check book with them and did not INTEND to defraud.

I said...but they haven't made up for that by writing a check out of their CURRENT checking account. To that, the response was, "That is a civil matter."

I have no idea what the state of affairs is in the county in which the checks were written. But as I am sure you will confirm...it is a CRIME to threaten criminal action in order to achieve a result in a civil matter (a form of extortion) and it is also Defamation PER SE (where damages are presumed and do NOT have to be proved) to accuse someone of a crime for which a jail sentence is possible unless you can PROVE that such a crime was commited.

If the accused person is not charged with a crime or is aquitted, then prevailing on a suit for per se defamation would be highly likely.

Therefore, people should be EXCELTIONALLY RELUCTANT to publish accusations of criminal behavior.

SO exceptionally reluctant that doing so demonstrates very bad judgment or ignorance of the risks...which this post attempts to remedy before some good people end up in a whole world of hurt.

Regards,
Jim
 
This is $30,000 in bad checks. Just about any prosecutors office will be interested in this i would think. Definitely though, bad checks for commercial type transactions (like a for profit pool event) are below the level of where someone has written 30k in bad checks to fund a drug habit or plain out swindling old folks on limited income.

Prosecutors are not immune to being sold on the merits of a case. Having 7 or 8 different people, from all over the country, calling 3x a day to the ASA in intake would help i imagine to get some traction. The bottom line is all this discussion on internet msg boards will not get action, it takes the victims in this case to be REALLY SQUEAKY WHEELS to move this along faster. From JS's post earlier, he didnt exactly communicate urgency and immediate action was coming from his end. If the victims in this case do not do anything, then the ASA will likely take a pass.
 
Now that's what I'm talking about!

Garth,

You know me, and you know that I haven't got a dime to my name, but if there's any way I can help, count me in. What you are proposing here is just what I was suggesting in the other thread. I feel that the whole Arizona pool community shares at least some responsibility in squaring things with Jay and the players. After all, it may have been only one of our members that created this whole situation, but it casts a bad light on all of us. And simply contributing wood to the fire that is going to be used to burn Chuck at the stake, isn't going to rectify anything.

Roger
 
Second

Garth Bair said:
Most businesses have lines of credit and/or good banking relations. Most Owners have friends that they can borrow monies from for a short time...at least once. Given the lack of response and time elapsed I would assume that Chuck Bobbitt is out of immediate options.

I think the pool players came with expectations that if they played their hearts out they could earn monies to support their private lives/responsibilities.

It was a great tournament. Look at the number of pros and high level players assembled at one time and at one place for all to watch. Greatest pool event that I have seen in AZ. and they were cheated out of their monies...included was a TD that did an excellant job...professional job of running this event...he was also not paid.
There are those of us in Arizona that could "float" the monies necessary for the players and TD to be paid...given we would receive gauranteed collateral from Chuck Bobbitt insuring that we would be repaid within a reasonable time...with interest. The more individuals willing to form this group would result in less needed from each to cover the bad checks.
Obviously, this would take setup and coordination. It would take communication with Chuck.
It would take some work setting the program up but I do not see much difficulty...member comittment of individual funds, set up bank account, meeting with Bobbitt, secure a legal document of collatoral and promissory note, receive from players and TD bounced checks and distribute funds. Any thoughts? Anyone interested in persuing this? Garth
Click to expand...

I second what Jay said, You're a good friend Garth.

Roger,

What does Chuck think of this idea?

Ray
 
Roger Long...please talk to YOUR friend Chuck. Bounce by him in general terms the thoughts in my post...

IF and I repeat IF a minimum of 7 people would be willing to committ to posting up $3000.00...I would post up $4000.00 for a sum of $25,000.00 to cover the bounced checks. If the committment is met by members of the Arizona pool community I would be willing to speak to Chuck along the following lines for the group....


CONDITIONS:

(1) No one puts their $3000.00 up until the necessary collateral, promissory note with interest and length of loan agreeable to all people envolved are in place. A lawyer would draw up the agreement. Legal fees would be paid by Chuck Bobbitt.
(2) A bank account would be activated for the sole purpose of making good all bad checks. All payments from the bank account to players and TD would have two signatures. As checks were distributed all envolved would be notified via email. Players and TD would need to send in their bounced checks or bank statement for reimbursment.
(3) Any monies owed OVER the $25000.00 (calculated and verified) would be put in along with the member committed funds by Chuck Bobbitt thereby insuring that all owed are paid.
(4) Distibution of interest earned on monies loaned would be paid at time of full repayment of the $25000.00 loan by Chuck Bobbitt.
(5) Monies designated as interest payments would be kept in the bank account until all monies were repaid.
(6) The legal sale and distrbution of funds through a Bobbitt loan default would be coordinated by two reps voted by the collective group.

I think this plan or certainly anyone elses plan that make sense should be set in motion. I would not want to be waiting for the legal system to get me my money. My life expectancy is not that long...and threaten legal action with jail time....Lets work it out. Garth
 
You've got it!

Garth Bair said:
Roger Long...please talk to YOUR friend Chuck. Bounce by him in general terms the thoughts in my post...

IF and I repeat IF a minimum of 7 people would be willing to committ to posting up $3000.00...I would post up $4000.00 for a sum of $25,000.00 to cover the bounced checks. If the committment is met by members of the Arizona pool community I would be willing to speak to Chuck along the following lines for the group....


CONDITIONS:

(1) No one puts their $3000.00 up until the necessary collateral, promissory note with interest and length of loan agreeable to all people envolved are in place. A lawyer would draw up the agreement. Legal fees would be paid by Chuck Bobbitt.
(2) A bank account would be activated for the sole purpose of making good all bad checks. All payments from the bank account to players and TD would have two signatures. As checks were distributed all envolved would be notified via email. Players and TD would need to send in their bounced checks or bank statement for reimbursment.
(3) Any monies owed OVER the $25000.00 (calculated and verified) would be put in along with the member committed funds by Chuck Bobbitt thereby insuring that all owed are paid.
(4) Distibution of interest earned on monies loaned would be paid at time of full repayment of the $25000.00 loan by Chuck Bobbitt.
(5) Monies designated as interest payments would be kept in the bank account until all monies were repaid.
(6) The legal sale and distrbution of funds through a Bobbitt loan default would be coordinated by two reps voted by the collective group.

I think this plan or certainly anyone elses plan that make sense should be set in motion. I would not want to be waiting for the legal system to get me my money. My life expectancy is not that long...and threaten legal action with jail time....Lets work it out. Garth
Click to expand...


I will more than happy to do that. It will have to wait until tomorrow, however. I have students the rest of today. Thanks.

Roger
 
Collateral

If the collateral is adequate, the money to "post up" will be minimal if any. A signature might do it.

With the right collateral I might put up the whole amount.
Ray
254-379-2569
 
av84fun said:
As a lawyer, you know that the degree of aggression on the part of the local prosecuters...and juries...vary dramatically from one county to the next...sometimes even within the same state.

I lived in Colorado Springs years ago (El Paso County) and the DA's office there had a dedicated check fraud unit that would call bad check writers for ANY amount.

In Chicago...either DuPage or Cook Counties...the State's Attorneys would stop just short of laughing in your face when you filed a complaint about almost any amount.

As you know, there are civil and criminal versions of fraud and INTENT is a huge issue.

As has been reported, many players had their checks bounce when their prize checks bounced and when that happened they were certainly not guilty of either civil or criminal fraud.

In Chicago, I had the SA decline to prosecute a person who wrote a check for $1,200.00 on an account that had be CLOSED FOR A YEAR!

Why? Because, I was told, the defense attorney would promote the defense that the person just took the wrong check book with them and did not INTEND to defraud.

I said...but they haven't made up for that by writing a check out of their CURRENT checking account. To that, the response was, "That is a civil matter."

I have no idea what the state of affairs is in the county in which the checks were written. But as I am sure you will confirm...it is a CRIME to threaten criminal action in order to achieve a result in a civil matter (a form of extortion) and it is also Defamation PER SE (where damages are presumed and do NOT have to be proved) to accuse someone of a crime for which a jail sentence is possible unless you can PROVE that such a crime was commited.

If the accused person is not charged with a crime or is aquitted, then prevailing on a suit for per se defamation would be highly likely.

Therefore, people should be EXCELTIONALLY RELUCTANT to publish accusations of criminal behavior.

SO exceptionally reluctant that doing so demonstrates very bad judgment or ignorance of the risks...which this post attempts to remedy before some good people end up in a whole world of hurt.

Regards,
Jim
Click to expand...

Maricopa County has a dedicated Check Enforcement Division. They have been very helpful to me and someone always answers the phone promptly. No putting you on hold forever. They have made it clear to me that the more offenses (meaning number of bad checks), the more seriously they view this. And the large amount of money involved also got their attention.

Chuck will be receiving his first notice shortly. He will have a reasonable period of time (like 20-30 days), to make restitution. After that a summons will be issued for him to appear in court. When he appears in court he can be bound over for trial. This is the process as it was explained to me.
 
I hope for Chuck and more importantly the players this does get resolved quickly.


I made the initial posts about this to alert people to what was happening, not to cause harm to Chuck or his reputation. I just want to be clear on that. I also appericate everyone here on AZ land for not shooting the messenger of the news-me. I was on the fence about saying anything as I didnt want to harm the players chance of getting paid in a timely fashion or Mr. Bobbetts reputation. I believe if he acts quickly on this matter by even paying a fraction of what he owes he will salvage his reputation. I do understand the spot he is in, as I have been in finincal trouble before due solely to business problems, not being reckless gambling, drinking etc away my $$$.

again I hope the best for everyone.
 
Garth Bair,
As the sayin goes,if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem...you bring an answer to a difficult situation.

I don't know you from Adam and I can only hope your "follow through" is a strong as your intent...somehow I suspect it is.
Well done and best of luck.
 
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jay helfert said:
Maricopa County has a dedicated Check Enforcement Division. They have been very helpful to me and someone always answers the phone promptly. No putting you on hold forever. They have made it clear to me that the more offenses (meaning number of bad checks), the more seriously they view this. And the large amount of money involved also got their attention.

Chuck will be receiving his first notice shortly. He will have a reasonable period of time (like 20-30 days), to make restitution. After that a summons will be issued for him to appear in court. When he appears in court he can be bound over for trial. This is the process as it was explained to me.
Click to expand...

Hey Jay,

FYI, here is a link to the official Check Encorement Division's brochure. You will note that it states that the check passer MAY be required to appear in court but that depends on the facts and circumstances which is sugar coating for "can we win this in front of a jury."

The tough one is proving intent to defraud without which, there is no fraud. The law requires a showing that the perpetrator INTENDED to defraud and KNEW that he was doing so at the time of the act.

In the laws that is referred to as "scienter."

Having faced such issues MANY MANY times I can tell you that defense attorneys are extremely skilled at conconcting scenarios that make it very difficult to PROVE intent.

How about this one that HAPPENED to me. The customer's mother filed a sworn affidavit with the SA that she had told her daughter that she was going to give her $X dollars on Friday but just changed her mind!!!

Therefore there was no INTENT to defraud and therefore there was no criminal fraud. Bye Bye.

As you know, I am not defending the man and would be at least as aggressive as you have been in obtaining redress.

All I'm saying is that the threat of criminal prosecution is WAY not as easy to make happen as many people think.

Remember, in criminal law, the standard is reasonable doubt not just "the preponderance of evidence"...i.e. a 51% probability of fault as is the standard in civil matters. That is why OJ lost a civil suit but skated on the criminal.

Plus, each of those who got stiffed and who wish to be included in the prosecution will have to appear personally...probably repeatedly during the criminal prosecution because the accused has the lawful RIGHT to be confronted by his accusers.

Start adding up all the travel expenses and it becomes clear why JS walked away and said "Oh well."

And oh...by the way...was the event legal under AZ law in the first place?

Under most state laws "amusement gambling" can be exempted if certain facts apply...and under AZ law, one of the facts leading to the possibility of exemption is:

"(ii) The gambling is an athletic event and no person other than the player or players derives a profit or chance of a profit from the money paid to gamble by the player or players.

Oooops!

Personally, I think the guy is a snake in the grass and deserves whatever he gets...and I would be a close second to you in seeing to that.

But I'm just sharing experience and stating the fact that it ain't easy and writing it all off to experience is not the worst idea in the world...especially when the money owed to YOU is hardly worth your time.

Re: the money owed to OTHERS...if they don't PERSONALLY get involved, they will get squat! YOU have no legal standing to file charges to collect money owed to others...and so far, I don't recall any other person who got stiffed asserting they would demand payment...but I could have missed such comments in these lengthy and multiple threads.

Regards,
Jim




http://www.maricopacountyattorney.org/BROCHURES/PDF/Check_Enforcement_gb.pdf
 
av84fun said:
Hey Jay,

FYI, here is a link to the official Check Encorement Division's brochure. You will note that it states that the check passer MAY be required to appear in court but that depends on the facts and circumstances which is sugar coating for "can we win this in front of a jury."

The tough one is proving intent to defraud without which, there is no fraud. The law requires a showing that the perpetrator INTENDED to defraud and KNEW that he was doing so at the time of the act.

In the laws that is referred to as "scienter."

Having faced such issues MANY MANY times I can tell you that defense attorneys are extremely skilled at conconcting scenarios that make it very difficult to PROVE intent.

How about this one that HAPPENED to me. The customer's mother filed a sworn affidavit with the SA that she had told her daughter that she was going to give her $X dollars on Friday but just changed her mind!!!

Therefore there was no INTENT to defraud and therefore there was no criminal fraud. Bye Bye.

As you know, I am not defending the man and would be at least as aggressive as you have been in obtaining redress.

All I'm saying is that the threat of criminal prosecution is WAY not as easy to make happen as many people think.

Remember, in criminal law, the standard is reasonable doubt not just "the preponderance of evidence"...i.e. a 51% probability of fault as is the standard in civil matters. That is why OJ lost a civil suit but skated on the criminal.

Plus, each of those who got stiffed and who wish to be included in the prosecution will have to appear personally...probably repeatedly during the criminal prosecution because the accused has the lawful RIGHT to be confronted by his accusers.

Start adding up all the travel expenses and it becomes clear why JS walked away and said "Oh well."

And oh...by the way...was the event legal under AZ law in the first place?

Under most state laws "amusement gambling" can be exempted if certain facts apply...and under AZ law, one of the facts leading to the possibility of exemption is:

"(ii) The gambling is an athletic event and no person other than the player or players derives a profit or chance of a profit from the money paid to gamble by the player or players.

Oooops!

Personally, I think the guy is a snake in the grass and deserves whatever he gets...and I would be a close second to you in seeing to that.

But I'm just sharing experience and stating the fact that it ain't easy and writing it all off to experience is not the worst idea in the world...especially when the money owed to YOU is hardly worth your time.

Re: the money owed to OTHERS...if they don't PERSONALLY get involved, they will get squat! YOU have no legal standing to file charges to collect money owed to others...and so far, I don't recall any other person who got stiffed asserting they would demand payment...but I could have missed such comments in these lengthy and multiple threads.

Regards,
Jim




http://www.maricopacountyattorney.org/BROCHURES/PDF/Check_Enforcement_gb.pdf
Click to expand...

Way ahead of you Jim, but thanks anyway. Multiple checks issued shows intent. Like I said before, the County Attorney's office is well aware of what happened, and have requested that I move quickly. Which I am. I have obtained all the documents necessary for all the players to file. And they will! I will see all of them next week in Vegas. I don't intend to leave any stone unturned.
 
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I am committed... but I need committment from others to follow through with any possibility of success in talking with and setting up meaningful repayment arrangments with Chuck Bobbitt. I will not go in shooting blanks.

The pool players played serious pool to the delight of the spectators in attendance. They played as professionals and carried themselves as gentlemen...with respect for each other and the spectators. Simply put...they (including the TD) deserve to be paid what they worked for. I am only trying to keep a positive focus on a (one) potential solution to the problem...I am sure that there are others working on other fronts/possibilities. I need seven $3000 money commitments to move forward.
 
jay helfert said:
Way ahead of you Jim, but thanks anyway. Multiple checks issued shows intent. Like I said before, the County Attorney's office is well aware of what happened, and have requested that I move quickly. Which I am. I have obtained all the documents necessary for all the players to file. And they will! I will see all of them next week in Vegas. I don't intend to leave any stone unturned.
Click to expand...

I KNOW you will and am sure you know that I back you 1000%.

Drill him pardner!

(-:

And for you KIND AND NOBLE people who have expressed to step up if you get collateral...it is highly likely that all he has is home equity which, in thge Sun Belt has been dropping substantially.

In addition, to move on the collateral you have to first foreclose which is a legal action that is not a slam dunk AND THEN you have to sell the house which now takes an AVERAGE of 10 months and you get only what is left after the interests of the first mortgage owner.

All in all, you are talking about a two year process and meaningful legal expenses that may or may not be realized from any sale.

Be careful out their guys.

Regards,
Jim
 
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