Practicing: Lesser or Greater Players
- Thread starter JoeyA
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I play lesser players all the time, but we have to be betting at least a soda. The game changes too much when you can't actually lose anything. If they can't bet so much as a soda, they probably aren't interested in improving anyways (and I have sometimes had people ask me to play and then retract their offer when I said, lets play for a soda).
If I feel that they aren't playing seriously, I wont cut them off mid set, but I probably wont play another.
When I play better players, I still have to bet enough so that I know he isn't playing differently than he would in a serious match.
If I feel that they aren't playing seriously, I wont cut them off mid set, but I probably wont play another.
When I play better players, I still have to bet enough so that I know he isn't playing differently than he would in a serious match.
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I believe the idea is to play players at all levels. And, while it's not good to just get beat up by better players, it is nice, sometimes, to just wail away on someone
These instances give you an opportunity to experiment with little to no penalty.Going the other way and playing the superior players, it boils down to what you can afford, both monetarily and psychologically. But, if better players are willing to play you for cheap, or time, or free, you should engage them all you can. I don't think you can get enough of that kind of education, at those prices. When you're playing a better player you should certainly try and win, but you shouldn't get fed up because you are losing.
The key element in all this is that when you are playing better players you must pay attention because these guys are showing you everything they know, right there, in front of your two little peepers: stance, grip, bridges, head position, alignment, rhythm, eye movement, cue tip placement, stroking, position play, strategy. It's all right there waiting for you to soak up and absorb. Play the better guys and set realistic goals, like taking a certain number of games off them in a set. Or, if you're playing for something, get a spot that gives you a chance but not necessarily the best of it. But whatever you do: pay attention.
Here's what I think is the biggest mistake many players make: thinking that good players are just that -- good players with more talent. Yes, there's talent involved, but there is also a huge amount of knowledge that anyone with enough discipline can observe, learn, and incorporate into their game. Playing better players is the ideal opportunity to pick up all kinds of knowledge.
In some ways pool is like a series of magic tricks. It all happens so fast, good players, like a good magician, make it seem effortless. And, if you don't make the effort to observe closely, it can be absolutely amazing. You might even go away thinking that it is something you yourself could never do. But, when you're playing a better player, you need to have the realization that you are getting to see the magic tricks over and over again, way up close. It is your opportunity to observe, study, and learn how the trick is done instead of just sitting there in amazement like some rube at the fair.
Lou Figueroa
I believe in practicing by myself, and playing with players of all levels. I see myself as a player-instructor, willing to help anyone with their game, even so, the two most questionable compliments I received over the years were by our long-standing erstwhile team coach: "No one's made more aspiring players give up pool than David" and a former student who I feel has turned out a really fine player who once accused me: "Isn't a good teacher someone who gets his apprentices to eventually surpass him?" I'm not great at socializing in general, but I'd hate to see myself exclusively as someone who's been alternatively assisting players or driven them to desperation. After all, I love this sport, and have set my mind on contributing to it the little I can. Don't forget pool is a social game, and that this remains one of its primary functions to so many people. And of course they want to socialize with the better-known players, an instructor, a house pro (the latter a non-existent concept in this country, too little money in it), possibly national and international champions, and not be treated as if their worth as human beings depended on how many racks they can run.
One of the unforgettable experience in my early years as an aspiring player was when in Belgium, I walked into the carom billiards hall of Raymond Ceulemans, according to the Guinness Book of Records the most successful sportsperson of any era, in any sport. Two shy young lads, we were surprised and pleased to see the great man behind the counter, serve us drinks at our table, polish with a towel and set up the balls for us. It was a miracle he didn't bow when he left us there in utter bewilderment, and we had not yet recovered when he planted himself beside the carom table with a cue in his hand, and asked us with a broad smile "Care to play some 3-Cushion with me?"
These are the kind of early experiences (and sweet memories) that make folks stick to a sport - all I'm saying. To put it another way, pool has given me so much, it makes me feel like giving some of it back, or rather, forward to others…
Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________
„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
One of the unforgettable experience in my early years as an aspiring player was when in Belgium, I walked into the carom billiards hall of Raymond Ceulemans, according to the Guinness Book of Records the most successful sportsperson of any era, in any sport. Two shy young lads, we were surprised and pleased to see the great man behind the counter, serve us drinks at our table, polish with a towel and set up the balls for us. It was a miracle he didn't bow when he left us there in utter bewilderment, and we had not yet recovered when he planted himself beside the carom table with a cue in his hand, and asked us with a broad smile "Care to play some 3-Cushion with me?"
These are the kind of early experiences (and sweet memories) that make folks stick to a sport - all I'm saying. To put it another way, pool has given me so much, it makes me feel like giving some of it back, or rather, forward to others…
Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________
„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
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Playing for sodas!
People sure are funny. When I used to play in bars a lot, I was always amazed that many people wouldn't play for a buck or two but would play game after game for a beer! They would have been way ahead playing for money rather than beer as beer is more than a dollar. They just did not want to hand you money. The beers would line up and I would give them away. Playing lesser players IMO is everyones duty. Not always fruitful for yourself but hopefully for them. Don't forget, someone played you when you were in that boat! I think it's good practice to try and bring your A game when playing lesser players. Sometimes we get lazy when we know we will win almost every game.
People sure are funny. When I used to play in bars a lot, I was always amazed that many people wouldn't play for a buck or two but would play game after game for a beer! They would have been way ahead playing for money rather than beer as beer is more than a dollar. They just did not want to hand you money. The beers would line up and I would give them away. Playing lesser players IMO is everyones duty. Not always fruitful for yourself but hopefully for them. Don't forget, someone played you when you were in that boat! I think it's good practice to try and bring your A game when playing lesser players. Sometimes we get lazy when we know we will win almost every game.
Think along. Of course that is what one should always do, after all Efren claims to have picked up some of his best moves from players who didn't have a clue what they were doing. But that is what I do: watch and count. Such as, how often would I have chosen a different route? How often is theirs superior or just different? How often does that choice depend on shooting a type of shot I'd not feel comfortable with? It might mean I need to practice that type of shot in my next practice session, as it's part of my credo that one isn't really good until one has freedom of choice to do whatever one wants to do when one wants to do it, in other words, choice should not be dictated by fear. Also, I'll try to figure out whether there is something systematic about the difference in our choices etc. As to technique, however, I have developed a habit of watching players who have a great stroke, but look the other way when confronted to players whose bodily movements might lead to a misprogramming of my subconscious… By "the other way", I mean I still try to focus on the table bed and observe the balls, of course.
Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________
„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
I believe the idea is to play players at all levels. And, while it's not good to just get beat up by better players, it is nice, sometimes, to just wail away on someone
Going the other way and playing the superior players, it boils down to what you can afford, both monetarily and psychologically. But, if better players are willing to play you for cheap, or time, or free, you should engage them all you can. I don't think you can get enough of that kind of education, at those prices. When you're playing a better player you should certainly try and win, but you shouldn't get fed up because you are losing.
The key element in all this is that when you are playing better players you must pay attention because these guys are showing you everything they know, right there, in front of your two little peepers: stance, grip, bridges, head position, alignment, rhythm, eye movement, cue tip placement, stroking, position play, strategy. It's all right there waiting for you to soak up and absorb. Play the better guys and set realistic goals, like taking a certain number of games off them in a set. Or, if you're playing for something, get a spot that gives you a chance but not necessarily the best of it. But whatever you do: pay attention.
Here's what I think is the biggest mistake many players make: thinking that good players are just that -- good players with more talent. Yes, there's talent involved, but there is also a huge amount of knowledge that anyone with enough discipline can observe, learn, and incorporate into their game. Playing better players is the ideal opportunity to pick up all kinds of knowledge.
In some ways pool is like a series of magic tricks. It all happens so fast, good players, like a good magician, make it seem effortless. And, if you don't make the effort to observe closely, it can be absolutely amazing. You might even go away thinking that it is something you yourself could never do. But, when you're playing a better player, you need to have the realization that you are getting to see the magic tricks over and over again, way up close. It is your opportunity to observe, study, and learn how the trick is done instead of just sitting there in amazement like some rube at the fair.
Lou Figueroa
Excellent post here Lou!!!
Maniac
I would have posted saying you were wrong with your first statement in the quote, but you used the word "probably" and it CYA.
There are "probably" thousands of poolplayers interested in improving that aren't interested in gambling (even if it's for sodas). I fall into this category and I certainly know many others in the same boat. I have improved by leaps and bounds over the last five years, mostly from reading, dvd's, watching matches (YouTube, streams, televised pool, live tournaments, and league), hours upon hours of practice, pool school, etc. I am VERY interested in improving. I do NOT want to gamble. I have never been a gambler in my life (probably had something to do with my upbringing). Heck, We've had the lottery here in Texas for years now and I have yet to buy one single ticket. Just don't gamble. Period. But....I DO improve
.Masayoshi, I would buy you as many sodas as you could drink if we ever matched-up. We wouldn't have to shoot pool for them. If you call "playing for sodas" gambling, then I guess I've lost a ton of matches without ever screwing my cue together as I'll buy anyone playing pool with me a beer/soda without having to play for it.
Gambling is not the "magic pill" for improvement in pool or any other sport/game. If you can't focus well enough to WANT to win a game/match without something being on the line, then you "probably" just don't have a winning attitude to begin with. How's that for a statement?
All I want is for people to quit saying that because we don't gamble, we don't want to improve. I've heard this crap far too often and amazingly enough
, it's almost always spewed from the mouths of hardcore gamblers. Imagine that!Flame on, gamblers!!!
Maniac
I would have posted saying you were wrong with your first statement in the quote, but you used the word "probably" and it CYA.
There are "probably" thousands of poolplayers interested in improving that aren't interested in gambling (even if it's for sodas). I fall into this category and I certainly know many others in the same boat. I have improved by leaps and bounds over the last five years, mostly from reading, dvd's, watching matches (YouTube, streams, televised pool, live tournaments, and league), hours upon hours of practice, pool school, etc. I am VERY interested in improving. I do NOT want to gamble. I have never been a gambler in my life (probably had something to do with my upbringing). Heck, We've had the lottery here in Texas for years now and I have yet to buy one single ticket. Just don't gamble. Period. But....I DO improve
Masayoshi, I would buy you as many sodas as you could drink if we ever matched-up. We wouldn't have to shoot pool for them. If you call "playing for sodas" gambling, then I guess I've lost a ton of matches without ever screwing my cue together as I'll buy anyone playing pool with me a beer/soda without having to play for it.
Gambling is not the "magic pill" for improvement in pool or any other sport/game. If you can't focus well enough to WANT to win a game/match without something being on the line, then you "probably" just don't have a winning attitude to begin with. How's that for a statement?
All I want is for people to quit saying that because we don't gamble, we don't want to improve. I've heard this crap far too often and amazingly enough
Flame on, gamblers!!!
Maniac
Its not about gambling. Its about having something to win. Pool is a game that changes drastically between playing for nothing and playing for something. The only way you can get used to playing for something is by actually playing for something. Whether this be playing in tournaments, sparring for cheap, or actual gambling. Playing for nothing only encourages sloppy and overly aggressive play.
If you offered to buy me a soda while I was playing a set for a soda I would REFUSE because I want the competition, not the soda. If you offered me a soda while I wasn't doing anything in particular, I would probably accept if you seemed like a nice enough guy.
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Awesome post and story David.
There is an elderly gentleman who plays at our pool hall. He loves the game but never fully developed the touch to play at a high level, nevertheless, he comes regularly, practicing with a vengeance. I even saw him at the Galveston World Classic where I did some pool commentary and he was just there to sweat the matches. Once, he told me that he comes to our pool room not just to practice pool and to play in the league but to talk to me. It was probably the most flattering thing anyone has ever told me. He gets my attention even when I am busy or pre-occupied. That's how it works. :smile:
You got action Masayoshi! I once gambled with Buddy Hall playing for 32 ounce Diet Cokes, even up one pocket. I paid for 3 or 4 of them. I don't think the man ever tired of beating on me or drinking those sodas.
I believe the idea is to play players at all levels. And, while it's not good to just get beat up by better players, it is nice, sometimes, to just wail away on someone
Going the other way and playing the superior players, it boils down to what you can afford, both monetarily and psychologically. But, if better players are willing to play you for cheap, or time, or free, you should engage them all you can. I don't think you can get enough of that kind of education, at those prices. When you're playing a better player you should certainly try and win, but you shouldn't get fed up because you are losing.
The key element in all this is that when you are playing better players you must pay attention because these guys are showing you everything they know, right there, in front of your two little peepers: stance, grip, bridges, head position, alignment, rhythm, eye movement, cue tip placement, stroking, position play, strategy. It's all right there waiting for you to soak up and absorb. Play the better guys and set realistic goals, like taking a certain number of games off them in a set. Or, if you're playing for something, get a spot that gives you a chance but not necessarily the best of it. But whatever you do: pay attention.
Here's what I think is the biggest mistake many players make: thinking that good players are just that -- good players with more talent. Yes, there's talent involved, but there is also a huge amount of knowledge that anyone with enough discipline can observe, learn, and incorporate into their game. Playing better players is the ideal opportunity to pick up all kinds of knowledge.
In some ways pool is like a series of magic tricks. It all happens so fast, good players, like a good magician, make it seem effortless. And, if you don't make the effort to observe closely, it can be absolutely amazing. You might even go away thinking that it is something you yourself could never do. But, when you're playing a better player, you need to have the realization that you are getting to see the magic tricks over and over again, way up close. It is your opportunity to observe, study, and learn how the trick is done instead of just sitting there in amazement like some rube at the fair.
Lou Figueroa
Your post intrigues me to sweat more matches by better players when they are playing someone else as well.
Gracias, Maniac.
A couple more thoughts:
If someone that outclasses you is willing to work out with you two, three days a week -- that's a golden opportunity, not to be passed up lightly. And then, you work out in practice sessions, and/or against lesser players, what you've seen and learned in between. There's a great passage in Bob Byrne's "McGoorty" in which Dapper Dan talks about an open game in a Chicago room. I think it says it all when it comes to this subject:
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There were always at least two of the league players in Chicago, and they kept an open game going, in the back room of Kieckhefer's most of the day. Seven points for two dollars. Anybody could play, but you got no spot. There were no spectators allowed...this was strictly a players' game. I got in and played with them every chance I could, and it was like going through a meat grinder. If there were, say, six players in the game, you never got more than two or three shots. Somebody would run seven and out, or a four and a three. For a year and a half I played, and one day I broke even.
Broke even! I went right out and got drunk, I was so happy. But it was the best training I could have got. If I became some kind of half-assed billiard player, I owe it to playing in those pot games. It cost me at least ten bucks a day, but it was priceless experience. Cheaper than taking lessons. They didn't mind me, so long as I brought my money and didn't ask for a spot. If I had asked for a spot, they would have said, "Don't let the door hit you in the ass." When they had picked me clean I would race out to Dick Adams's joint and set up shots I had seen played, particularly by Reiselt, who was terrific, and I would talk them over with Dick. "Why did he play it off the white instead of the red? Why did he elevate his cue a little? Why did he bank for this one instead of going cross table? Why did he slow the ball down?" Between the two of us we would figure out the answers. To beat a kiss. To drop the red into the opposite corner. To leave a tough shot. To drive a ball five rails or position.
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That's what it's all about.
Lou Figueroa
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Yes, of course. Thing is, most of us do that and just watch the shots. But there is so much more to look for and see.
Lou Figueroa
There is so much to see, in fact, I'm convinced I'll still be sweating great matches and watch great players when I'm no longer able to play the game myself. It's not exclusively about the learning process, it's about the enjoyment the learning process adds to it all. I often feel bad days are those arrogant "know-all" ones when I feel like I should perform according to my ability and experience, whereas the good days are the ones when I have a mind for learning something new. Even after 25 years that's the one thing I should know with absolute certainty: that there is no limit to what's left for me to learn.
Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________
„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
If I ever make my way to your area (or vice-versa), you have a game sir!
Playing cheap sets with a top player makes the pool world go 'round. You donate to the cause, but you force yourself to bring your best game. That's worth more than months of practice and going through the motions.
I don't ask for a spot. I'm not there to win small money. I'm there to battle and gauge my game. I don't throw money away, but a little pressure puts things into perspective.
Best,
Mike
I don't ask for a spot. I'm not there to win small money. I'm there to battle and gauge my game. I don't throw money away, but a little pressure puts things into perspective.
Best,
Mike
Bettering your pool game with practice time
I do believe playing lesser or better players is Most certainly practice, it's just in a different form than solitude practice, each individual player takes what they get from each practice session differently.
I like playing bars, so it's easier for me to get a money game than at the pool room, pool rooms you more or less have to undergo the microscope, in a bar just play or set down, and I very rarely have to ask a person to gamble because the challenge money table is already going, so you just ask what exactly is the bet.
Now when I was at my brother's night club/poolroom for 12 yrs. sometimes 8-10 hours a day I would play with anyone that wanted to hit balls with me, and I would never ask a known nongambler/locals to gamble, the truth be told I hardly ever ask someone to gamble, the challenger usually always enunciate a game to my/our liking.
With the lesser players, if you'll turn them into your robotic rack boy, they soon will lose interest and will find other things to do.
Somedays I would tire easily with lesser players, but sometimes not and I would go through many before hanging up my practice time for the day.
I have always played all out, it may be a crawl at that moment but I'm putting forth 100% effort, I've found out from many years of playing bars that you can win the main challenge table and keep it all day and the locals will play you all day and night trying to beat you just once.
I once played a challenge table in Texarkana and started playing at 2:00 P.M. and at closing the five locals that were playing from the get go were still trying to win just one game, I won 85 games of 8-Ball in a row that day , for a $676.00 total, bars are a good way to practice!
I personally have learned much more Watching a great player than practicing with one, because I would be so into myself worried about making a good showing I would see through each and every shot the player made and not really pick up on much, that's just the way I see it for myself.
I rarely volunteer information , but asked for and I will give my thoughts.
David Harcrow
I do believe playing lesser or better players is Most certainly practice, it's just in a different form than solitude practice, each individual player takes what they get from each practice session differently.
I like playing bars, so it's easier for me to get a money game than at the pool room, pool rooms you more or less have to undergo the microscope, in a bar just play or set down, and I very rarely have to ask a person to gamble because the challenge money table is already going, so you just ask what exactly is the bet.
Now when I was at my brother's night club/poolroom for 12 yrs. sometimes 8-10 hours a day I would play with anyone that wanted to hit balls with me, and I would never ask a known nongambler/locals to gamble, the truth be told I hardly ever ask someone to gamble, the challenger usually always enunciate a game to my/our liking.
With the lesser players, if you'll turn them into your robotic rack boy, they soon will lose interest and will find other things to do.
Somedays I would tire easily with lesser players, but sometimes not and I would go through many before hanging up my practice time for the day.
I have always played all out, it may be a crawl at that moment but I'm putting forth 100% effort, I've found out from many years of playing bars that you can win the main challenge table and keep it all day and the locals will play you all day and night trying to beat you just once.
I once played a challenge table in Texarkana and started playing at 2:00 P.M. and at closing the five locals that were playing from the get go were still trying to win just one game, I won 85 games of 8-Ball in a row that day , for a $676.00 total, bars are a good way to practice!
I personally have learned much more Watching a great player than practicing with one, because I would be so into myself worried about making a good showing I would see through each and every shot the player made and not really pick up on much, that's just the way I see it for myself.
I rarely volunteer information , but asked for and I will give my thoughts.
David Harcrow
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I love playing and will play most anyone providing they play correctly. I often play folks that are much more skilled than myself, and some that are less skilled. When playing the more skilled players I do ask them questions sometimes if they don't have a problem with it. I also don't mind giving some advice for those less skilled if asked, provided they are serious about wanting to learn, and not just blowing smoke.
A lot of it depends on the attitude and approach. There are few out there I have found that won't help someone if approached properly. The one's that won't are the exception, not the rule.
A lot of it depends on the attitude and approach. There are few out there I have found that won't help someone if approached properly. The one's that won't are the exception, not the rule.
