Predator brings back World 8 Ball Championship (14-20 Nov2022)

[Willowbrook Wolfy]

I don’t know. People have made a big buzz about the pros not making enough. With both payouts pretty good I think some of the middle of the road pros are happy having 2 opens at the same time. They have a better chance of cashing in big at 1. Looking at this years players’ earnings, it seems to be on an upward curve from last year too. $$$

 

[Willowbrook Wolfy]

And two running at the same time gets more players involved. That’s more opportunity to grow the sport

 

[oknazevad]

Ultimately, if these sort of consistent (and possibly intentional) scheduling conflicts continue, I could see here being something of a split of pros who favor Matchroom's 9-ball calendar and those who favor CSI/Predator's 10-ball one.

All while the biggest money is still in Joy's Chinese 8-ball tour.

 

[Swighey]

Ultimately, if these sort of consistent (and possibly intentional) scheduling conflicts continue, I could see here being something of a split of pros who favor Matchroom's 9-ball calendar and those who favor CSI/Predator's 10-ball one.

All while the biggest money is still in Joy's Chinese 8-ball tour.

Rightly or wrongly, I think Predator will have to bite the bullet and schedule their 10 Ball events and 8 Ball World Championship before or after Matchroom events so players can double up. I still hold out a little bit of hope that Matchroom will also see that this as a win-win and take this into consideration when scheduling events.

 

[Joe_Jaguar]

Rightly or wrongly, I think Predator will have to bite the bullet and schedule their 10 Ball events and 8 Ball World Championship before or after Matchroom events so players can double up. I still hold out a little bit of hope that Matchroom will also see that this as a win-win and take this into consideration when scheduling events.

Those two sentences make no sense whatsoever. Of course they would see it as a "win-win" as they would have WON. LMFAO. They saw the WPA calendar and scheduled their events right over Predator's. They don't care, that is how they operate. Here's hoping Matchroom has to eat the bullet and reschedule both of their events.

 

[Island Drive]

Wording and event to say Worlds is riding on the coattails of the WPA World event meaning/phrasing.
Feels like another US Open event in a different location, with a different venue and rules.
This is typical of our world....I don't see it ending till soM-atchroom-E one hold$ the true rein$ of our players with lots of CASH.$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ structure and event payouts.
Too many gold fish in the pond, and no one I know of likes to live their adult life, on only Gold Fish.
I want our youngin' to be recognized like one would Rory McElroy

 

[garczar]

Ultimately, if these sort of consistent (and possibly intentional) scheduling conflicts continue, I could see here being something of a split of pros who favor Matchroom's 9-ball calendar and those who favor CSI/Predator's 10-ball one.

All while the biggest money is still in Joy's Chinese 8-ball tour.

Ch8b is like watching paint dry. Tough? Sure. Entertaining to watch? IMO, no. Never see it being widely adopted on world-wide basis.

 

[sjm]

Ch8b is like watching paint dry. Tough? Sure. Entertaining to watch? IMO, no. Never see it being widely adopted on world-wide basis.

Agreed. Chinese 8-ball is largely irrelevant to the competition for the elite pool players in tournament play.

 

[sjm]

I don't agree with those who suggest that scheduling over a WPA sanctioned event is playing dirty. When it's done, it's done with the understanding that access to the full contingent of elite players could be greatly diminished. For example, Turning Stone offered WPA ranking points, and The Iron City Open, which was played over the exact same weekend (1/6-1/9), did not. Yes, the Iron City Open had to do without Gorst, Shaw, Immonen and a couple of other elite players, but the event producers surely knew this in advance, and likely had no problem with it. Both events delivered a quality product.

To me, more often than not, such over-scheduling is good clean competition, the kind of competition that is starting to deliver pool out of its doldrums and is making a decent living attainable for elite pro players easier than it has been in a long time.

Where it might get complicated is that top players might have to choose which series of events to play. Many of those who opt to skip the bulk of the Matchroom Series events will likely fail to maintain a Matchroom ranking in the Top 32, which will, in turn, reduce their access to Matchroom events, placing them among hundreds and hundreds who try to get into Matchroom events through online registration. As we know, only some are lucky enough to find their way into Matchroom's top events that way. Similarly, those that choose to skip the CSI/Predator events will pay a price in the WPA rankings, which could impact their invitations into WPA sanctioned events and might compromise their access to the CSI/Predator events.

Players may have a tough choice to make, but if the game's major event producers work together as well as with WPA, they can eliminate the potential headaches that may be on the horizon for pro players.

I firmly believe that there's room in pool for all of these events but working out the logistics is a challenge that can and must be met.

Keep the faith. All this competition will ultimately serve our sport well.

 

[vjmehra]

I don't agree with those who suggest that scheduling over a WPA sanctioned event is playing dirty. When it's done, it's done with the understanding that access to the full contingent of elite players could be greatly diminished. For example, Turning Stone offered WPA ranking points, and The Iron City Open, which was played over the exact same weekend (1/6-1/9), did not. Yes, the Iron City Open had to do without Gorst, Shaw, Immonen and a couple of other elite players, but the event producers surely knew this in advance, and likely had no problem with it. Both events delivered a quality product.

To me, more often than not, such over-scheduling is good clean competition, the kind of competition that is starting to deliver pool out of its doldrums and is making a decent living attainable for elite pro players easier than it has been in a long time.

Where it might get complicated is that top players might have to choose which series of events to play. Many of those who opt to skip the bulk of the Matchroom Series events will likely fail to maintain a Matchroom ranking in the Top 32, which will, in turn, reduce their access to Matchroom events, placing them among hundreds and hundreds who try to get into Matchroom events through online registration. As we know, only some are lucky enough to find their way into Matchroom's top events that way. Similarly, those that choose to skip the CSI/Predator events will pay a price in the WPA rankings, which could impact their invitations into WPA sanctioned events and might compromise their access to the CSI/Predator events.

Players may have a tough choice to make, but if the game's major event producers work together as well as with WPA, they can eliminate the potential headaches that may be on the horizon for pro players.

I firmly believe that there's room in pool for all of these events but working out the logistics is a challenge that can and must be met.

Keep the faith. All this competition will ultimately serve our sport well.

Not just that, but also a quite important (but seemingly often overlooked on here) consideration for Matchroom is Sky Sports coverage for UK viewers.

Without a slot on Sky Sports the tournament may as well not exist, so if Sky say you can have a particular week, then for a sport like pool they will have to take it (of course for other sports it can work in reverse, where the promoter sets the date and the tv companies have to juggle things around, but pool isn't there yet...nor realistically will it ever be, even snooker can't dictate timeslots, the BBC does that for the majors)!

 

[Swighey]

Not just that, but also a quite important (but seemingly often overlooked on here) consideration for Matchroom is Sky Sports coverage for UK viewers.

Without a slot on Sky Sports the tournament may as well not exist, so if Sky say you can have a particular week, then for a sport like pool they will have to take it (of course for other sports it can work in reverse, where the promoter sets the date and the tv companies have to juggle things around, but pool isn't there yet...nor realistically will it ever be, even snooker can't dictate timeslots, the BBC does that for the majors)!

Matchroom messed up big time with Premier League Pool in the UK. They had a deal for it to be live on Free Sports but most of the sessions were shown on delay because Free Sports also had a deal with Ultimate Pool and decided to show those sessions live instead. This was sensible as Ultimate Pool is a better and more exciting product than Premier League Pool at the time of writing. You are right, Matchroom still has some work to do and can't dictate the schedule, even on the "free" channels.

 

[Swighey]

Those two sentences make no sense whatsoever.

That's strange because you go on to say the same thing:

Here's hoping Matchroom has to eat the bullet and reschedule both of their events.

...which is what I said I hold out some hope they will do in future.

 

[YoungAtHeart]

I see the problem with the fact that the WPA has no backbone. They are clearly scared of upsetting Matchroom.
If Predator have an sanctioned event on the WPA calendar, then they cannot sanction another event where the dates clash.
So in this case, by their own rules, they can't sanction the Matchroom event.
The WPA also has a rule that says if a player chooses to play a non-sanctioned event whilst there is a sanctioned happening, the player is likely to be penalised.
The WPA needs to 'grow a pair' and enforce their rules no matter who the promoter/event organiser might be.

 

[oknazevad]

Agreed. Chinese 8-ball is largely irrelevant to the competition for the elite pool players in tournament play.

I'm not sure I entirely agree. Players will play where there is a chance to earn significant money, and Joy puts a lot of cash behind their series, as well as the size of the domestic audience alone. Plus it travels fairly well, in terms of international recognizability, because it still largely looks like the 8-ball that most people around the world have seen; the rules are basically world-standard 8-ball with fewer differences than one would even find between any two other WPA-sanctioned tournaments, and most casual viewers would have a hard time even picking up the table differences that define the variant. It's biggest weakness is the lack of announcers in English (or other potential international audience languages).

The aforementioned Ultimate Pool has the inverse problem. Yes it's from Britain and therefore in English, but it that means they're playing the English version of 8-ball, which is not common outside the UK, Ireland, Australia & New Zealand; it simply appears strange to most potential viewers. It also has the disadvantage of inconsistent competing rules sets and sanctioning bodies; even if UP themselves have chosen a single rule set for their events – the newest International Rules, aka Supreme Rules – that still is derided by others who prefer the WPA Blackball Rules or older rule sets. And the payouts are not really that great, not compared to the Chinese series. It's an even more niche product, almost like a pool game show for the domestic audience alone.

 

[Joe_Jaguar]

That's strange because you go on to say the same thing:


...which is what I said I hold out some hope they will do in future.

What shit you smoking man?

 

[Joe_Jaguar]

I see the problem with the fact that the WPA has no backbone. They are clearly scared of upsetting Matchroom.
If Predator have an sanctioned event on the WPA calendar, then they cannot sanction another event where the dates clash.
So in this case, by their own rules, they can't sanction the Matchroom event.
The WPA also has a rule that says if a player chooses to play a non-sanctioned event whilst there is a sanctioned happening, the player is likely to be penalised.
The WPA needs to 'grow a pair' and enforce their rules no matter who the promoter/event organiser might be.

Finally someone gets it.

 

[Swighey]

I'm not sure I entirely agree. Players will play where there is a chance to earn significant money, and Joy puts a lot of cash behind their series, as well as the size of the domestic audience alone. Plus it travels fairly well, in terms of international recognizability, because it still largely looks like the 8-ball that most people around the world have seen; the rules are basically world-standard 8-ball with fewer differences than one would even find between any two other WPA-sanctioned tournaments, and most casual viewers would have a hard time even picking up the table differences that define the variant. It's biggest weakness is the lack of announcers in English (or other potential international audience languages).

The aforementioned Ultimate Pool has the inverse problem. Yes it's from Britain and therefore in English, but it that means they're playing the English version of 8-ball, which is not common outside the UK, Ireland, Australia & New Zealand; it simply appears strange to most potential viewers. It also has the disadvantage of inconsistent competing rules sets and sanctioning bodies; even if UP themselves have chosen a single rule set for their events – the newest International Rules, aka Supreme Rules – that still is derided by others who prefer the WPA Blackball Rules or older rule sets. And the payouts are not really that great, not compared to the Chinese series. It's an even more niche product, almost like a pool game show for the domestic audience alone.

International Rules will become the preferred rule set for English pool. The success of Ultimate Pool in the UK, the Pockets Pro series in Australia and the move to this ruleset in the WEPF's version of the World Championship, together with it being preferred by the pros will ensure this. It is derided by some old timers but only in the same way that some prefer daft bar rules for "American" 8 Ball. Anyway, yes it is a niche product but it is still a better watch than Premier League pool for the UK audience which is a target audience for Matchroom. Matchroom simply overlooked this when making a deal with Free Sports.

I'm with you on Chinese Pool - if the money is there the top players (including snooker players - the game is a great leveller) will turn up.

 

[Swighey]

I don't agree with those who suggest that scheduling over a WPA sanctioned event is playing dirty. When it's done, it's done with the understanding that access to the full contingent of elite players could be greatly diminished. For example, Turning Stone offered WPA ranking points, and The Iron City Open, which was played over the exact same weekend (1/6-1/9), did not. Yes, the Iron City Open had to do without Gorst, Shaw, Immonen and a couple of other elite players, but the event producers surely knew this in advance, and likely had no problem with it. Both events delivered a quality product.

To me, more often than not, such over-scheduling is good clean competition, the kind of competition that is starting to deliver pool out of its doldrums and is making a decent living attainable for elite pro players easier than it has been in a long time.

Where it might get complicated is that top players might have to choose which series of events to play. Many of those who opt to skip the bulk of the Matchroom Series events will likely fail to maintain a Matchroom ranking in the Top 32, which will, in turn, reduce their access to Matchroom events, placing them among hundreds and hundreds who try to get into Matchroom events through online registration. As we know, only some are lucky enough to find their way into Matchroom's top events that way. Similarly, those that choose to skip the CSI/Predator events will pay a price in the WPA rankings, which could impact their invitations into WPA sanctioned events and might compromise their access to the CSI/Predator events.

Players may have a tough choice to make, but if the game's major event producers work together as well as with WPA, they can eliminate the potential headaches that may be on the horizon for pro players.

I firmly believe that there's room in pool for all of these events but working out the logistics is a challenge that can and must be met.

Keep the faith. All this competition will ultimately serve our sport well.

I don't disagree but I think it's a huge mistake on the WPA's part to sanction an event as a World Championship when it goes directly up against an already WPA sanctioned "major" in the Matchroom series. Something like, "if you want to call it the 8 Ball World Championship then move it and let's find a way together to have a bigger overlay - or if you want to leave it where it is then keep it as the already WPA sanctioned Puerto Rico Open" would be a better response.

 

[sjm]

I'm not sure I entirely agree. Players will play where there is a chance to earn significant money, and Joy puts a lot of cash behind their series, as well as the size of the domestic audience alone. Plus it travels fairly well, in terms of international recognizability, because it still largely looks like the 8-ball that most people around the world have seen; the rules are basically world-standard 8-ball with fewer differences than one would even find between any two other WPA-sanctioned tournaments, and most casual viewers would have a hard time even picking up the table differences that define the variant. It's biggest weakness is the lack of announcers in English (or other potential international audience languages).

The aforementioned Ultimate Pool has the inverse problem. Yes it's from Britain and therefore in English, but it that means they're playing the English version of 8-ball, which is not common outside the UK, Ireland, Australia & New Zealand; it simply appears strange to most potential viewers. It also has the disadvantage of inconsistent competing rules sets and sanctioning bodies; even if UP themselves have chosen a single rule set for their events – the newest International Rules, aka Supreme Rules – that still is derided by others who prefer the WPA Blackball Rules or older rule sets. And the payouts are not really that great, not compared to the Chinese series. It's an even more niche product, almost like a pool game show for the domestic audience alone.

You could well be right.

I'm thinking that because pool players who've tried their luck at Chinese 8-ball have, with occasional exception (such as Appleton five years ago), found themselves overmatched in a game that, just like snooker, requires even better cueing skills than pool.

For this reason, I don't think that the elite pool players will devote much time and energy to Chinese 8-ball, which has its niche, but isn't really competing with either pool or snooker on a grand scale for access to the top nine ball players.

I'm not suggesting that Chinese 8-ball doesn't have a bright future, only that its bright future won't infringe on pool and that's why I'm not convinced that it will figure prominently in pro pool's future.

... but I'll keep an open mind. Thanks for your input.

 

[oknazevad]

International Rules will become the preferred rule set for English pool. The success of Ultimate Pool in the UK, the Pockets Pro series in Australia and the move to this ruleset in the WEPF's version of the World Championship, together with it being preferred by the pros will ensure this. It is derided by some old timers but only in the same way that some prefer daft bar rules for "American" 8 Ball. Anyway, yes it is a niche product but it is still a better watch than Premier League pool for the UK audience which is a target audience for Matchroom. Matchroom simply overlooked this when making a deal with Free Sports.

I'm with you on Chinese Pool - if the money is there the top players (including snooker players - the game is a great leveller) will turn up.

I tend to agree. The adoption of International Rules seem to have reenergized English pool (and the WEPF as an organization, since they adopted them fully) quite a bit. It does lose the two-visits aspect of English pool that has always been one of its more distinct features, but there has never been a rule set that did implement it without it creating other issues. But by adopting ball-in-hand anywhere on the table, it's now much more like American (and Chinese) 8-ball, bringing it back to its roots (being the game really started as a standardization of the English version of said bar rules).

One other thing to note is that the International Chinese Eight-ball Association (the governing body, which is recognized by the WPA as the affiliate for that variant) is now branding it as "heyball", an existing nickname that comes from saying "eight-ball" with poor diction. Probably part of the desire to internationalize the Chinese version without making it sound like it's just played in China. I'm going to keep calling it "Chinese 8-ball", just like I call English 8-ball that and standardized 8-ball "American 8-ball". I think it's important to note the roots of the variants.

What I would do if I had money and clout would be to put up a prize awarded to a player who could pull a triple crown of winning the Chinese 8-ball Masters Grand Final, the WEPF world championship, and the WPA World 8-ball title (or the US Open 8-ball) in the same year, just to show mastery of the different table types. Kinda like someone winning majors on all three surfaces in tennis. Maybe even through in a bonus for a barbox tournament, to complete the quadrants.