Predator cushions on Sept 20 play perfect

[iusedtoberich]

This Predator table/sponsor tournament is live right now, free on youtube. Look at the CB and OB reactions off of the cushions. It is spot on. It slows down a touch. The angles look great. It seems exactly like most professional tables made since 1950, other than you know which brand. Pool as it should be played.

 

[ShortBusRuss]

This Predator table/sponsor tournament is live right now, free on youtube. Look at the CB and OB reactions off of the cushions. It is spot on. It slows down a touch. The angles look great. It seems exactly like most professional tables made since 1950, other than you know which brand. Pool as it should be played.

Ehhh... Jason Shaw hated the way they played enough to forfeit a match, so.... There's that.

You really, REALLY seem to have a hardon against Diamonds. How many posts have you made in the past month criticizing them? Here's a clue... You are in the minority, as far as disliking Diamond rails.

 

[skogstokig]

Ehhh... Jason Shaw hated the way they played enough to forfeit a match, so.... There's that.

You really, REALLY seem to have a hardon against Diamonds. How many posts have you made in the past month criticizing them? Here's a clue... You are in the minority, as far as disliking Diamond rails.

i think they fixed the main issues. even predator sponsored players complained that time, it was bad. now they only need to fix the format.. american pros boycotting an american tour, it's kind of farcical..

 

[ShortBusRuss]

i think they fixed the main issues. even predator sponsored players complained that time, it was bad. now they only need to fix the format.. american pros boycotting an american tour, it's kind of farcical..

Well, I look at it like this.. Diamonds are almost certainly responsible for the drastic uptick in overall top pro play quality, and they had their issues at first. Predator has a big hill to climb to be as universally praised.

Predator does seem to be intent on taking over the pool world, though, so we'll see. My main tournament interest is DCC, so I for one, have zero interest in Predator tables.

 

[iusedtoberich]

Ehhh... Jason Shaw hated the way they played enough to forfeit a match, so.... There's that.

You really, REALLY seem to have a hardon against Diamonds. How many posts have you made in the past month criticizing them? Here's a clue... You are in the minority, as far as disliking Diamond rails.

I’ve made these posts for years. I talk to local players all the time. Almost everyone is of the same opinion as me when I talk in person. Online it’s different because there are bullies and people just don’t want to deal with that. There is also the real issue of bandwagons. Lots of people say xyz is great, so some are less reluctant to speak up against it.

Yes there were issues on the early Predator tables, that seemed to stem from the transport and tipping of the tables during the install process. I haven’t heard of any issues since, however.

The bounce of the rails seems perfect. Did you watch a few shots? You can see it in just a couple minutes of watching to get a variety of shots.

 

[iusedtoberich]

Well, I look at it like this.. Diamonds are almost certainly responsible for the drastic uptick in overall top pro play quality, and they had their issues at first. Predator has a big hill to climb to be as universally praised.

Predator does seem to be intent on taking over the pool world, though, so we'll see. My main tournament interest is DCC, so I for one, have zero interest in Predator tables.

I’m all for the many brands. It keeps competition and we as the players benefit.

Speaking of DCC, it would be neat if Predator did a similar yearly event. Then, you might buy a Predator to put next to your Diamond

 

[JolietJames]

I will consider a Chinese plastic-looking table if Diamond closes down for good one day and no quality tables made in the US exist.
I have had several GCs but now that they are made in China, I have no interest. I am happy with my ProAm and it banks the way a table should.

The fit of the Predator tables I saw in Tucson was great but the cheap plastic tops had cracks and back then the rails were still fubared.
Glad to see they may have figured out proper rail height and installation.
I do not care for their equipment (cues, balls, tables, chalk, etc.), but I am glad they are doing well. They have a genuine interest in
supporting the game I love. Without Predator and Matchroom, pool in the US would be in a real sad state.

 

[The_JV]

Well, I look at it like this.. Diamonds are almost certainly responsible for the drastic uptick in overall top pro play quality, and they had their issues at first. Predator has a big hill to climb to be as universally praised.

This is the first time since I wandered in to AZB where someone claimed the state of pro pool play in NA has improved over the last few decades. The "up tick" in the quality pool play seems to be rooted from nations across the various ponds. I don't believe Diamond is the juggernaut it is in those foreign nations.

 

[The_JV]

Ehhh... Jason Shaw hated the way they played enough to forfeit a match, so.... There's that.

Old news, and nothing beyond growing pains with set-up.

You really, REALLY seem to have a hardon against Diamonds. How many posts have you made in the past month criticizing them? Here's a clue... You are in the minority, as far as disliking Diamond rails.

This would make an interesting poll. I'm sure the cheerleaders would come out ahead, but the average joe in here isn't playing north of 600spd anyway.

 

[skogstokig]

i think there's some merit to the suggestion that diamond changed the game to a higher level. not alone of course, but they made tougher equipment and it forced players to higher levels

 

[ShortBusRuss]

This is the first time since I wandered in to AZB where someone claimed the state of pro pool play in NA has improved over the last few decades. The "up tick" in the quality pool play seems to be rooted from nations across the various ponds. I don't believe Diamond is the juggernaut it is in those foreign nations.

Please point out where I "claimed the state of pro pool in NA has improved in the last few decades".

What I AM saying is that so many pro events being "played" on Diamonds, has forced "all" pros to play better, if they want to win those majors. I believe that DCC 9 ball and U.S. Opens being played on Diamonds led to better play for the pros who ended up winning them, out of necessity. Pros have to be more accurate on position routes, have to be better shotmakers, etc. This forced anyone coming with the ambition to win a major, to improve their game.

Have you went back and watched pool from the 80s? Player fundamentals from the top pros were awful.

 

[The_JV]

Please point out where I "claimed the state of pro pool PLAY in NA has improved in the last few decades".

You edited that quote, or missed a key word while typing it out. I added it back in for you. However, what you said was:

Diamonds are almost certainly responsible for the drastic uptick in overall top pro play quality,

What did you mean by that if not that the quality of play has improved because of Diamond tables...? My rebuttal was simply that NA pool isn't all that great in terms of the world stage, and nearly all are in general agreement with that thought. Lets keep in mind that Diamond is a US product, and only found over the pond when shipped there by MR these days.

On the global scene, the "uptick" in play (which I agree with) is rooted in the efforts of those from other nations. Nations that don't have diamond as the main piece of equipment. While I see what you getting at the top level. However it's nothing to do with diamond but more so how MR is dialing in equipment. We could just as easily see the same progress with rasson. Diamond simply made the right deal with the right people.

What I AM saying is that so many pro events being "played" on Diamonds, has forced "all" pros to play better, if they want to win those majors. I believe that DCC 9 ball and U.S. Opens being played on Diamonds led to better play for the pros who ended up winning them, out of necessity. Pros have to be more accurate on position routes, have to be better shotmakers, etc. This forced anyone coming with the ambition to win a major, to improve their game.

Improve their game or adjust away from correct geometry...? You give credit to a table manufacturer. I'm giving it to the spirit of competition and an organization willing to increase the level of difficulty to force the elite to appear human.

 

[iusedtoberich]

Diamond as a company, IMO, is responsible for the uptick in Banks and One Pocket, due to the yearly DCC. As far as overall play improvement, I agree with JV's points on that. If you looked purely at table brands vs player performance, one could actually argue Diamonds made players worse. Diamonds are prevalent in the USA, and almost not-existent anywhere else. Yet, USA players are way, way, way behind the rest of the world. The last time USA players were best in the world (or at least in contention for best in the world) was actually in the 90's when Gold Crowns were still the top tournament and pool room table.

I know this isn't the reason, just like ice cream does not cause more boating accidents Just pointing out that its impossible Diamond tables did anything to make players better.

 

[BasementDweller]

Diamond as a company, IMO, is responsible for the uptick in Banks and One Pocket, due to the yearly DCC. As far as overall play improvement, I agree with JV's points on that. If you looked purely at table brands vs player performance, one could actually argue Diamonds made players worse. Diamonds are prevalent in the USA, and almost not-existent anywhere else. Yet, USA players are way, way, way behind the rest of the world. The last time USA players were best in the world (or at least in contention for best in the world) was actually in the 90's when Gold Crowns were still the top tournament and pool room table.

I know this isn't the reason, just like ice cream does not cause more boating accidents Just pointing out that its impossible Diamond tables did anything to make players better.

Yeah -- it could actually be the exact opposite effect here in the US. B players don't like playing 9 ball (or 10 ball) on Diamonds. It's too psychologically disruptive, or that's my theory. Instead, like you said, they prefer one-pocket or banks, where they can massage the ego a bit. Yes the A players don't mind them, but we certainly don't have as many of them as we had during the glory years of the Gold Crown.

There's zero doubt that pro play has improved tremendously in the past couple of decades. Europe and Asia have driven this though, without Diamond tables too. Just looking specifically at the Philippines, you can see how quickly their cueing technique has evolved, from the loosey-goosey technique of Bustamante and company to the present generation, who nearly all have modified snooker technique.

This is an interesting question though.

 

[ShortBusRuss]

You edited that quote, or missed a key word while typing it out. I added it back in for you. However, what you said was:

What did you mean by that if not that the quality of play has improved because of Diamond tables...? My rebuttal was simply that NA pool isn't all that great in terms of the world stage, and nearly all are in general agreement with that thought. Lets keep in mind that Diamond is a US product, and only found over the pond when shipped there by MR these days.

On the global scene, the "uptick" in play (which I agree with) is rooted in the efforts of those from other nations. Nations that don't have diamond as the main piece of equipment. While I see what you getting at the top level. However it's nothing to do with diamond but more so how MR is dialing in equipment. We could just as easily see the same progress with rasson. Diamond simply made the right deal with the right people.

Improve their game or adjust away from correct geometry...? You give credit to a table manufacturer. I'm giving it to the spirit of competition and an organization willing to increase the level of difficulty to force the elite to appear human.

Any edit I made was because I am on a tablet with an onscreen keyboard that is exceedingly easy to make spelling mistakes on. I never referenced the quality of play of NA pool specifically, nor was that anywhere close to my intention. The top pros "in general" play better because Diamond tables forced them to have better fundamentals. That's my opinion, and you are free to disagree. Outside of SVB (and maybe Morra) , there "are" no NA top pros capable of winning international majors, but that does not mean that international pros were not affected by the requirement to play on them at Derby and U.S. Open.

But since you brought it up.. The lack of top tier talent specifically in America is economic in nature. To run a successful pool hall in America, you basically HAVE to serve alcohol, and pretty much everywhere, minors cannot play in these pool halls due to local ordinances that either ban them from the premises, or they have to have a parent on premises with them, which severely limits access to the game. Young people taking up the game is an absolute requirement for a country to be a force on the international scene. America's pool playing population is aging due to this effect. Average age is 35+ for good players above 600 Fargo.

In Europe on the other hand, it is simply part of the culture that minors can play in private clubs that serve alcohol, and it is just not a big deal. Not sure if it is like that in Asia, but I believe because of both population density, and employee wages, it is a lot easier to run a small pool hall profitably without alcohol. If minors being allowed in alcohol serving halls is even a problem there.

Sure, as a general rule American fundamentals are atrocious, but that is because there is really not much of a market for the game in America for the stated reasons, so folks don't get coaching, as there is not a lot of money to go after.

 

[skogstokig]

Yeah -- it could actually be the exact opposite effect here in the US. B players don't like playing 9 ball (or 10 ball) on Diamonds. It's too psychologically disruptive, or that's my theory. Instead, like you said, they prefer one-pocket or banks, where they can massage the ego a bit. Yes the A players don't mind them, but we certainly don't have as many of them as we had during the glory years of the Gold Crown.

There's zero doubt that pro play has improved tremendously in the past couple of decades. Europe and Asia have driven this though, without Diamond tables too. Just looking specifically at the Philippines, you can see how quickly their cueing technique has evolved, from the loosey-goosey technique of Bustamante and company to the present generation, who nearly all have modified snooker technique.

This is an interesting question though.

whether one buys into the impact on level of play theory or not, it's true that pro tournament tables are tighter now and that diamond started that trend.

 

[The_JV]

Any edit I made was because I am on a tablet with an onscreen keyboard that is exceedingly easy to make spelling mistakes on.

There was an omission in the middle of what you quoted. It changed the meaning, so I pointed it out. The reason why doesn't matter as long as my thoughts are addressed accurately... No harm, no foul

I never referenced the quality of play of NA pool specifically, nor was that anywhere close to my intention.

No you didn't. You did give credit to Diamond for the current level of play though. Considering Diamond is only a NA phenomenon beyond 1 or 2 MR events overseas, the inference that NA talent is specifically being called out is clear as day. Even if it wasn't your intent. My apologies, but it does read that way.

The top pros "in general" play better because Diamond tables forced them to have better fundamentals. That's my opinion, and you are free to disagree.

Yep, we disagree...

 

[The_JV]

whether one buys into the impact on level of play theory or not, it's true that pro tournament tables are tighter now and that diamond started that trend.

Curious as to why you credit Diamond with that... Are we assuming that builders prior to Diamond refused to shim pockets on request..?

Or is more likely diamond tables happen to be the product of choice while tournaments wanted tighter pockets, so they were willing to satisfy that need at the time..?

 

[TrxR]

I will consider a Chinese plastic-looking table if Diamond closes down for good one day and no quality tables made in the US exist.
I have had several GCs but now that they are made in China, I have no interest. I am happy with my ProAm and it banks the way a table should.

The fit of the Predator tables I saw in Tucson was great but the cheap plastic tops had cracks and back then the rails were still fubared.
Glad to see they may have figured out proper rail height and installation.
I do not care for their equipment (cues, balls, tables, chalk, etc.), but I am glad they are doing well. They have a genuine interest in
supporting the game I love. Without Predator and Matchroom, pool in the US would be in a real sad state.

They aren't Chinese. They are made in Spain

 

[iusedtoberich]

Curious as to why you credit Diamond with that... Are we assuming that builders prior to Diamond refused to shim pockets on request..?

Or is more likely diamond tables happen to be the product of choice while tournaments wanted tighter pockets, so they were willing to satisfy that need at the time..?

Every player's room in the country had triple shimmed GC's before the Diamond "pro-cut" pocket came out. Everyone in this thread, including Russ, knows that.

Not to derail too much more, but why not.... I've argued that tighter pockets don't even make a player better. If you mishit a ball, and it still falls, that means you hit it too fat, so your CB won't move the right amount anyway. It might not stop your run immediately, but it will hamper your position, which will probably stop your run soon. And if you don't figure that out super fast (even on bucket tables) you will never in a million years become a runout player.

No matter how big or how small the pockets, you still aim for the facing of the pocket. That's why good players play pretty much the same on bucket GC's with factory pockets or the Diamond "one pocket" cut pockets. They are all hitting the facing of the pocket so the ball will drop AND they will get their position. Watching even a top local A player (let's say 700 Fargo) play on a tight table and a loose table, is not that much different. They will run out on both.

You can develop this skill on bucket valley pockets. It makes no difference. Its the CB that separates the good from the average players, not if the ball fell due to a big pocket.