Private pool club - how many members for a 6 table club?

[RabbiHippie]

I like how the Players Club is run. But that's only what I see on the streams. Seams like he does a good business. I don't know how you can survive in this type of business without beer, wine and liquor, and some level of food. And I really can't see how anyone but Tin Man can earn a living since this endeavor will help rise the tide of his instructional business.

The same principle applies for private clubs as for every pool room in the country: Pool alone isn't enough to stay in business, there's got to be "something else" that actually pays the bills.

Table time barely makes a dent in rent and payroll no matter what hourly rate is charged, even assuming 100% utilization (which never happens). That's why most of the really profitable pool rooms left in the U.S. are counting on food and alcohol sales to cover their monthly nut. I've also seen a few rooms do well with video poker.

The two private clubs I've been to--Anytime Billiards in Des Moines and The Players Club in St. Louis--both rely on selling and installing Diamond tables for the majority of their income. (That's my impression anyway; I have no insight into the actual numbers.) Anytime Billiards' showroom basically serves dual purpose as a private room and the membership fees are just a supplement for the main business. The Players Club makes a little more money from their livestream subscribers and their cue and JB Case sales.

For @Tin Man the "something else" that makes the private club feasible can be instruction. Greg Hogue is doing something similar with his Red Door Den Training Center in Oklahoma.

 

[Hungarian]

The same principle applies for private clubs as for every pool room in the country: Pool alone isn't enough to stay in business, there's got to be "something else" that actually pays the bills.

Table time barely makes a dent in rent and payroll no matter what hourly rate is charged, even assuming 100% utilization (which never happens). That's why most of the really profitable pool rooms left in the U.S. are counting on food and alcohol sales to cover their monthly nut. I've also seen a few rooms do well with video poker.

The two private clubs I'm familiar with--Anytime Billiards in Des Moines and The Players Club in St. Louis--both rely on selling and installing Diamond tables for the majority of their income. Anytime Billiards' showroom basically serves dual purpose as a private room and the membership fees are just a supplement for the main business. The Players Club makes gets a little more money from their livestream subscribers and by selling cues and JB Cases.

For @Tin Man the "something else" can be instruction. Greg Hogue is doing something similar with his Red Door Den Training Center in Oklahoma.

Agree. My comments were exclusively related to the business structure and the concerns I listed in a few posts not the concept. I like the concept, I just wouldn't invest in something like this as a "silent partner". The Players Club, to the best of my knowledge, is operated by one guy who loves pool. My point is, I would be concerned about how this business would survive or largely benefit anyone but Tin Man. But we don't know since he hasn't posted any response for going on 6 weeks after he asked for input from the forum.

 

[RabbiHippie]

Don't know if @Tin Man or anybody else is paying much attention this old thread anymore, but I'll throw out a couple business ideas for free since I'm unlikely to ever follow through on them ...

There was a laundromat called Soap & Suds when I was in college that offered a small game room in the back with pool and had a license so they could sell beer. Great idea since a laundromat provides a perfect captive audience of people looking for something to do while they wait on their laundry.

Something similar would work with a barbershop for men. Lots of people waiting their turn. It'd be a nice return to the days when there were barbershops like the one on Andy Griffith.

 

[RabbiHippie]

Agree. My comments were exclusively related to the business structure and the concerns I listed in a few posts not the concept. I like the concept, I just wouldn't invest in something like this as a "silent partner". The Players Club, to the best of my knowledge, is operated by one guy who loves pool. My point is, I would be concerned about how this business would survive or largely benefit anyone but Tin Man. But we don't know since he hasn't posted any response for going on 6 weeks after he asked for input from the forum.

Brendan Sullivan and John Pirkey are partners in The Players Club. Brendan is CEO and Pirkey the CTO. Pirkey's background is in software development and he came up with the great custom setup they have for the livestream and keeps it running smoothly. It's definitely a labor of love by a couple guys who are passionate about pool.

 

[Hungarian]

Brendan Sullivan and John Pirkey are partners in The Players Club. Brendan is CEO and Pirkey the CTO. Pirkey's background is in software development and he came up with the great custom setup they have for the livestream and keeps it running smoothly. It's definitely a labor of love by a couple guys who are passionate about pool.

Oh okay, I wasn't sure but I do know of Brendan having bought a case from him long time ago.

 

[Tin Man]

Hey all! I appreciate the responses!

My lack of follow up had to do with being a bit overwhelmed by the feedback! I appreciate it, it was just a lot to digest.

My question was really about an anticipated member to table ratio. My takeaway was that 6 tables could support 50 members give or take, with more sacrificing member experience. Of course any downside of availability would have to be weighed against costs and other benefits of the club.

I'm not the operations guy so I can't speak to all of the specifics. I will say I am very confident in what we are doing. I understand how challenging the pool industry is, the economy in general, etc. But in the end it is not what I think or anyone else thinks, it is what the market thinks. And the demand is there to the point where we're going to have more people wanting to be members than we can support before we open the doors. We plan on expanding to eight 9' tables and 2 bar tables within 6-18 months and try to see where the sweet spot is for total members at that point. It might be 80, it might be a hair more or less. It also depends on how many tables I'm tying up for group lessons, how often, how many corporate events we book, etc. Those dials can be adjusted up and down quickly as well to make sure member experience is always paramount.

Again, thank you all that thoughtful replies. We have read through them and definitely challenged ourselves in many areas to make sure we were putting our best foot forward. Merry Christmas to all and maybe I'll see some of you in Minneapolis next year!

 

[Hungarian]

Don't know if @Tin Man or anybody else is paying much attention this old thread anymore, but I'll throw out a couple business ideas for free since I'm unlikely to ever follow through on them ...

There was a laundromat called Soap & Suds when I was in college that offered a small game room in the back with pool and had a license so they could sell beer. Great idea since a laundromat provides a perfect captive audience of people looking for something to do while they wait on their laundry.

Something similar would work with a barbershop for men. Lots of people waiting their turn. It'd be a nice return to the days when there were barbershops like the one on Andy Griffith.

I like that idea. 15 or so years ago I mentioned to my old barber shop they could set up a small game room and a bar box since they had a ton of room. He didn't like the idea because he didn't want people hanging around.

 

[RabbiHippie]

My question was really about an anticipated member to table ratio. My takeaway was that 6 tables could support 50 members give or take, with more sacrificing member experience. Of course any downside of availability would have to be weighed against costs and other benefits of the club.

Personally I don't think there's going to be a need to set an upper limit on membership. I think you'll find that your private club turns out to be a lot like the fitness club model where they have large membership rolls but never approach maximum utilization of the equipment because most members don't show up every day.

Consider that New Years Day is like Black Friday for Fitness clubs because of all the new members making resolutions.

You want as large a membership roll as possible to be the target audience for your instruction. You're starting out with more tables than the other private clubs I mentioned. I wouldn't turn away anybody who wants to join. You can always make adjustments later (schedule slots, add tables, etc.) if it becomes an issue.

 

[GentlemanJames]

I like that idea. 15 or so years ago I mentioned to my old barber shop they could set up a small game room and a bar box since they had a ton of room. He didn't like the idea because he didn't want people hanging around.

YES! LOL! This happened to me too. Seems it was okay for all the gang to sit around endlessly in the chairs " jawin' and yackin " waiting for your turn on a busy day; or, the shop to sit there empty for hours on a slow day, but the idea of making extra money by putting in 2 tables in the large back room which sat there empty except for some old chairs and a few cardboard boxes was apparently out of the question.

Seems to me, if I was a Barber, I'd love to be making $3 an hour per person on people who were playing pool, while I sat in the Barber chair reading the newspaper waiting for the next haircut to come in.

Go figure. - GJ

 

[mattydrva]

Hey all! I appreciate the responses!

My lack of follow up had to do with being a bit overwhelmed by the feedback! I appreciate it, it was just a lot to digest.

My question was really about an anticipated member to table ratio. My takeaway was that 6 tables could support 50 members give or take, with more sacrificing member experience. Of course any downside of availability would have to be weighed against costs and other benefits of the club.

I'm not the operations guy so I can't speak to all of the specifics. I will say I am very confident in what we are doing. I understand how challenging the pool industry is, the economy in general, etc. But in the end it is not what I think or anyone else thinks, it is what the market thinks. And the demand is there to the point where we're going to have more people wanting to be members than we can support before we open the doors. We plan on expanding to eight 9' tables and 2 bar tables within 6-18 months and try to see where the sweet spot is for total members at that point. It might be 80, it might be a hair more or less. It also depends on how many tables I'm tying up for group lessons, how often, how many corporate events we book, etc. Those dials can be adjusted up and down quickly as well to make sure member experience is always paramount.

Again, thank you all that thoughtful replies. We have read through them and definitely challenged ourselves in many areas to make sure we were putting our best foot forward. Merry Christmas to all and maybe I'll see some of you in Minneapolis next year!

That's great to hear that you all have identified pent up demand and feel good about immediate, strong levels of membership! How did you guys measure that level of interest (i.e. what makes you feel good about the immediate demand)?

I would love to pursue something as this as well as I'm nearing semi-retirement and a private club as described in this thread is the only model that is attractive to me. I feel like, in time, I can find a good space with reasonable rent in our local market to fit 4-6 9 footers and know a handful of regulars from a since shuttered, local pool hall who would definitely jump at becoming members. Beyond that I have no sense of what the level of demand/interest for something so niche like this would be locally and that concerns me the most.

Local market: 1 million in metro area
Pool Halls: 1 nice legit pool hall on outskirts of town and 1 APA focused pool hall very near the legit pool hall with primarily bar boxes.

The vast majority of residents in this fairly large metro do not have a single 9 foot table within reasonable driving distance of their home.

I feel like 30 members at say $80/month would be break even (which is all I would need) and despite the lack of pool options fear that might be a stretch to achieve. (Am considering charging a flat rate per visit for people who want to join and play less regularly not spend $80/mo on membership)

 

[Tin Man]

That's great to hear that you all have identified pent up demand and feel good about immediate, strong levels of membership! How did you guys measure that level of interest (i.e. what makes you feel good about the immediate demand)?

I would love to pursue something as this as well as I'm nearing semi-retirement and a private club as described in this thread is the only model that is attractive to me. I feel like, in time, I can find a good space with reasonable rent in our local market to fit 4-6 9 footers and know a handful of regulars from a since shuttered, local pool hall who would definitely jump at becoming members. Beyond that I have no sense of what the level of demand/interest for something so niche like this would be locally and that concerns me the most.

Local market: 1 million in metro area
Pool Halls: 1 nice legit pool hall on outskirts of town and 1 APA focused pool hall very near the legit pool hall with primarily bar boxes.

The vast majority of residents in this fairly large metro do not have a single 9 foot table within reasonable driving distance of their home.

I feel like 30 members at say $80/month would be break even (which is all I would need) and despite the lack of pool options fear that might be a stretch to achieve. (Am considering charging a flat rate per visit for people who want to join and play less regularly not spend $80/mo on membership)

Thank you!
Our projections aren’t based on market research, they’re based on local feedback.
We haven’t officially advertised our opening yet. Just word of mouth letting rumors circulate that we are opening a club. And those rumors spread like fire around our area.

We started taking down names/numbers of people who wanted to join or wanted more info. Our combined list is over 50 people, 1/3 of which are ready to pay for a year in advance without even knowing the cost yet, the rest of which are seriously excited and waiting for more details.

We sign the lease this week. Our next move is to make an official announcement about our club. We’re not even going to advertise a price yet, we’re just going to announce our club opening, give an overview of what we’re doing, and then explain there are limited spots available and allow people to message us if they’d like to receive more info or line up a tour.

We are going to solidify our interest levels before we confirm pricing because we don’t want to go too high of course, but we also don’t want to go too low and fill up immediately and tear up the chance for our club to be profitable.

But we aren’t doing this to break even. I don’t agree this is a break even project. We are in a busy metro area and the memberships will be three figures, not two, and we will have an up front join fee to help raise extra capital quickly. Discounts for payment for a year in advance. Once we expand to 10 total tables and reach 80-100 members we will do well. No one will get rich, but it will be a win-win.

It’s not up to me or anyone here what this is worth, it’s the market, and the market is speaking. We are going to have a beautiful atmosphere, great equipment, and professional players training and sparring with members, and capture a lot of the more serious players in town. People want to be part of it and we are going to deliver. I can’t wait.

 

[ChrisinNC]

Hey all! I appreciate the responses!

My lack of follow up had to do with being a bit overwhelmed by the feedback! I appreciate it, it was just a lot to digest.

My question was really about an anticipated member to table ratio. My takeaway was that 6 tables could support 50 members give or take, with more sacrificing member experience. Of course any downside of availability would have to be weighed against costs and other benefits of the club.

I'm not the operations guy so I can't speak to all of the specifics. I will say I am very confident in what we are doing. I understand how challenging the pool industry is, the economy in general, etc. But in the end it is not what I think or anyone else thinks, it is what the market thinks. And the demand is there to the point where we're going to have more people wanting to be members than we can support before we open the doors. We plan on expanding to eight 9' tables and 2 bar tables within 6-18 months and try to see where the sweet spot is for total members at that point. It might be 80, it might be a hair more or less. It also depends on how many tables I'm tying up for group lessons, how often, how many corporate events we book, etc. Those dials can be adjusted up and down quickly as well to make sure member experience is always paramount.

Again, thank you all that thoughtful replies. We have read through them and definitely challenged ourselves in many areas to make sure we were putting our best foot forward. Merry Christmas to all and maybe I'll see some of you in Minneapolis next year!

I’m seeing virtually no mention of food / alcohol. Sounds like simplest would be for members to bring their own, but that doesn’t bring in any $ and could create potential issues with the alcohol element.

To me, this is clearly a labor of love among the investors, who are are passionate about the game enough to most likely take a significant financial hit to get this club started up and a continued $ hit to keep it operating.

Your membership dues $ income may (best case scenario) cover your ongoing operating expenses but will in no way recoup your considerable initial start up $ costs.

Sorry for my pessimism but I’ve been running a pool room / grill for 27 years and it’s tough bringing in enough $ to pay all the bills you never fathomed in your initial budgeting!

 

[Tin Man]

I’m seeing virtually no mention of food / alcohol. Sounds like simplest would be for members to bring their own, but that doesn’t bring in any $ and could create potential issues with the alcohol element.

To me, this is clearly a labor of love among the investors, who are are passionate about the game enough to most likely take a significant financial hit to get this club started up and a continued $ hit to keep it operating.

Your membership dues $ income may (best case scenario) cover your ongoing operating expenses but will in no way recoup your considerable initial start up $ costs.

Sorry for my pessimism but I’ve been running a pool room / grill for 27 years and it’s tough bringing in enough $ to pay all the bills you never fathomed in your initial budgeting!

I understand.

It’s similar to pool. If someone said they want to make a career out of pool I’d probably bet against them too. Usually I’d be right. So if fedor came to AZBilliards in 2012 and asked for advice it wouldn’t have been very supportive. I’m no fedor, but running a pool club is no getting to #1 in the world.

So I appreciate where this is coming from. Yet while we have plans for food and drink, merchandise, pro shop, corporate events, and a few other areas that may generate small revenue streams, we don’t need to go down that road. All I wanted was a few opinions on table/member capacity. I’ve called my shot and am down shooting. Im past the point of discussing pattern options.

Wishing you all a happy holiday.

 

[ChrisinNC]

I understand.

It’s similar to pool. If someone said they want to make a career out of pool I’d probably bet against them too. Usually I’d be right. So if fedor came to AZBilliards in 2012 and asked for advice it wouldn’t have been very supportive. I’m no fedor, but running a pool club is no getting to #1 in the world.

So I appreciate where this is coming from. Yet while we have plans for food and drink, merchandise, pro shop, corporate events, and a few other areas that may generate small revenue streams, we don’t need to go down that road. All I wanted was a few opinions on table/member capacity. I’ve called my shot and am down shooting. Im past the point of discussing pattern options.

Wishing you all a happy holiday.

I’m wishing you nothing but success for your club! Setting the maximum number of members and the annual $ dues is a tough decision. It’s hard to know how many hours per week each member will use the tables, as it will vary greatly. Until you have a better idea of how often each member plans to come, how long they’ll stay and play and what day/hours they are most likely to come, it will be hard to figure how many members you should allow.

Just a thought - You might consider a few different levels of memberships depending on their planned amount of usage. That way those that will be there all the time will pay their fair share, and those that don’t come that much don’t overpay for benefits they seldom use.

 

[Tin Man]

I’m wishing you nothing but success for your club! Setting the maximum number of members and the annual $ dues is a tough decision. It’s hard to know how many hours per week each member will use the tables, as it will vary greatly.

Just a thought - You might consider a few different levels of memberships depending on their planned amount of usage. That way those that will be there all the time will pay their fair share, and those that don’t come that much don’t overpay for usage they seldom use.

 

[Island Drive]

I'm opening up a private pool club with six 9' Diamond tables and a 7' Diamond bar table. Not open to the public. 24/7 key access, etc.

How many members do you think this club would support before table availability becomes a concern?

Also, what do you think a reasonable monthly fee would be? I'm in the Minneapolis, MN area. I'll also be running some guided training out of the club (it is going to be designed for people looking to train and improve). Not nightly classes like a dojo, but not just an anytime fitness. I have my plan and ultimately the market will decide, just curious on thoughts of others.

Other thoughts.
Or.... have two 9 footers and 7 bar tables.
Pro cut 7 footers are the real deal in 8 ball.
Using the space gained by switching the table sizes, could/might/would also add one more table.

 

[iusedtoberich]

Best of luck! Awesome to follow your dream! I hope you find great satisfaction in your endeavor.

 

[mattydrva]

Thank you!
Our projections aren’t based on market research, they’re based on local feedback.
We haven’t officially advertised our opening yet. Just word of mouth letting rumors circulate that we are opening a club. And those rumors spread like fire around our area.

We started taking down names/numbers of people who wanted to join or wanted more info. Our combined list is over 50 people, 1/3 of which are ready to pay for a year in advance without even knowing the cost yet, the rest of which are seriously excited and waiting for more details.

We sign the lease this week. Our next move is to make an official announcement about our club. We’re not even going to advertise a price yet, we’re just going to announce our club opening, give an overview of what we’re doing, and then explain there are limited spots available and allow people to message us if they’d like to receive more info or line up a tour.

We are going to solidify our interest levels before we confirm pricing because we don’t want to go too high of course, but we also don’t want to go too low and fill up immediately and tear up the chance for our club to be profitable.

But we aren’t doing this to break even. I don’t agree this is a break even project. We are in a busy metro area and the memberships will be three figures, not two, and we will have an up front join fee to help raise extra capital quickly. Discounts for payment for a year in advance. Once we expand to 10 total tables and reach 80-100 members we will do well. No one will get rich, but it will be a win-win.

It’s not up to me or anyone here what this is worth, it’s the market, and the market is speaking. We are going to have a beautiful atmosphere, great equipment, and professional players training and sparring with members, and capture a lot of the more serious players in town. People want to be part of it and we are going to deliver. I can’t wait.

Thanks for your reply!!

 

[The_JV]

Remember.... "Pics or it didn't Happen"

wishing you and your partners all the success possible.

 

[Coos Cues]

What is your cost to operate per month? What is Cost to open the venue.

Your description of you venue sounds pricy.

This is key. You calculate your costs first then determine how many members would be necessary to make your nut at what price.

Then ask "do you think this room would support XXX number of members at this price"?

Always start at the end and work backwards with business pricing and viability. Keeps you real and prevents fudging expectations which is what kills most ventures. Income is easy to over estimate and expenses under. Always use worst case scenarios and if it isn't right don't kid yourself.