PRO ONE DVD: Answering Questions

Patrick Johnson said:
Well, it's a little more complicated than that. I don't know about PocketPoint, but some of us are trying to understand how CTE works - not how it's advertised to work or how most CTE users here believe it works (neither of which seem to hold up on close inspection), but how it really works. BTW, this difference of opinion about how CTE works is the real core of disagreement here - not whether it works for its users. And that's the reason I can see immediately that the system isn't for me - it doesn't work in a way that's useful to my game (although it's obviously very useful to some peoples' games).

So why do I care if I don't want to learn it completely?

1. Because it might employ some principles that might be generally useful, and I want to know how they operate within the system so they can be re-applied to my game and others'.

2. Because I think it's perfectly legitimate for anybody to want to know more than we've learned about this system before committing significant dollars and time to it, and I want to make more info available to everybody for that purpose. If it's really such good info, it can only increase interest in the system.

3. Because if I can learn something about how it really works I might become more interested in learning it more completely myself.

pj
chgo
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I for one hope you really mean this PJ. You say your getting the dvd and i hope you really work with the info. I have no doubt there is something useful in there for you. I doubt you will use the system in its entirety but I also feel you will come away with something. Will you put in the time to learn it all, is the question. I really hope so.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
How about not calling anybody with a question a "detractor"? That just emphasizes "sides".

pj
chgo

P.S. I know I'm guilty of this sometimes too.
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Well, that's just semantics that of all people I wouldn't expect you to be sensitive about. But if you must, there are those on here that "ask questions" looking for an answer to help learn the system. There are also those that ask questions trying to prove a point that the system does not/ can not work. I believe the word "detractor" describes the second group rather well. It really does not matter to me what you call it, and I did not mean any negativity in the term. However, the group that repeatedly questions the system with a negative bias really can't be called question askers. I will be happy to use whatever term you suggest.

I do believe that real conversation about the topic can lead us to a place where we all actually learn something about the topic. I was originally very confused by the DVD, but it is becoming clearer the more I work with it, as are the possibilities of the systems value, and why! I need to shoot some more shots and work on the angles related to each shot before commenting any more, but the math is starting to make sense. You will really need to watch the DVD and understand the possible aim point and shot variations for it to make sense.

Out of curiosity, why continue to comment in a thread about a system, when you have already made it known that you are not a systems player, but a feel player. I would just like to understand your motives for being in the thead, and whether or not there is any real reason for me to continue a conversation about this (I don't care if you don't want to learn it, or will not believe it/use it. I just don't want to waste my time on it if that is the case).
 
mantis99 said:
... Out of curiosity, why continue to comment in a thread about a system, when you have already made it known that you are not a systems player, but a feel player. I would just like to understand your motives for being in the thead, and whether or not there is any real reason for me to continue a conversation about this ...
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Pat already addressed this. See post #401 in this thread.
 
Mikjary said:
You raise some extremely on point questions, PJ. I can only give my opinion on WHY I think Cte works, without any written backup. Others may dispute my claims, but from experience I've seen an extended view and now am coming to understand Stan's comment on "higher levels" of aiming.

He gives us a hint of what I'm seeing in my game in his dvd. He talks about what a pro player sees when he asks what he sees when he is shooting a shot (I'm not a pro). He also mentions the fact that now that this information is available, a lot of upper level players are going to dial in their games with it. This not a hype for sales (it didn't hurt though :wink:). It was a seminal observation that made me contort and become uncomfortable because it was true.

I, for one, am happy for Stan and wish him well with his sales. He is the mentor of Pro One and deserves success after his hard work. On the other hand I wish I could keep all the candy for myself and not feed the fish. :) I'll be getting knocked out of tourneys now and with my own system!

Cte is not a system that shows you WHERE to find the contact point, but instead shows you HOW to find the contact point. No other system does this. Some have surmised to an obvious conclusion that it develops your pre-shot routine. Why? Because you are letting your eyes arrive at a position that lets them aim correctly. How valuable is this fact?

Early users think they are lining up their bodies to point at the shot line. If you stand this way, you can make all shots. You are now pointed in the right direction. Yes and no. When your eyes are lined up correctly you will line up physically better. Cte is teaching you where to line up with your eyes, then your body.

This diligent practice with Cte and then Pro One reinforces correct eye alignment and over time will morph into an automatic shooting alignment. I typically use no pivot, no selective bridge length, no reference points. My mind has assimilated the process and they are not necessary anymore. If I slump, I double check things with Pro One. If the shot is low percentage or pressure has me tight, I can use Pro One to double check myself. I warm up with Pro One and get in stroke quickly as my visuals dial in.

Cte works by dialing in your visuals. A progression to Pro One connects your body to the natural equation. Joey A mentioned in another thread how he just got down and shot at his last tournament without any system. He is moving into the next stage of aiming because he has finally learned after years of playing where his eyes need to be. I know this feeling and am trying to pin it down on paper. Right now I can't. All I really am sure about is that I have finally learned where to put my eyes and am improving my game at a steady pace in the last few months. This is the reward for learning Cte when it was so easy to quit.

Best,
Mike
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Very nice post Mike!! Very articulate!! You've summarized my experience with it as well!! Well done!!
 
cookie man said:
It actually does. find the ctel then pivot 4 boards over, and with a straight and repeatable arm motion you can throw strikes.
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I aimed centre of my ball to left edge of the pin, then pivoted to center but the ball hit a woman 3 lanes away!

Guess it need some refinement.
 
peppersauce said:
I don't get it. I really don't. It seems to be working for me but I'm still not clear about the line you address the CB on. I haven't read all 20 some odd pages of this thread but I read about 12 pages and I still don't get it. I'm standing behind the CB, I see the 2 reference lines, and I come directly into the shot with the correct half tip offset (L or R), and pivot to centerball. I pull the trigger and the ball goes in. Great! How did I do it? I dunno. I don't even think I was coming into the CB parallel to either line a lot of the time. I was somewhere in between.

At the end of the day it just left me confused because I'm a solid player anyway. So now I'm asking myself, is it the system and the fact that every shot I shoot with it is center ball or is it just because I've shot thousands upon thousands of balls and I'm simply adjusting so the ball goes in? I never attempted to learn aiming systems before Stan's DVD and I was looking for something to strenthen my shotmaking a bit and give me a solid foundation to fall back on when I'm not playing my best but how can I do that when I don't even know how to address the CB with this system? Thoughts form any CTE experts on here?
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Give Stan a call at 270-405-3216 and he'll be happy to explain it all to you. :D
 
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peppersauce said:
I don't get it. I really don't. It seems to be working for me but I'm still not clear about the line you address the CB on. I haven't read all 20 some odd pages of this thread but I read about 12 pages and I still don't get it. I'm standing behind the CB, I see the 2 reference lines, and I come directly into the shot with the correct half tip offset (L or R), and pivot to centerball. I pull the trigger and the ball goes in. Great! How did I do it? I dunno. I don't even think I was coming into the CB parallel to either line a lot of the time. I was somewhere in between.

At the end of the day it just left me confused because I'm a solid player anyway. So now I'm asking myself, is it the system and the fact that every shot I shoot with it is center ball or is it just because I've shot thousands upon thousands of balls and I'm simply adjusting so the ball goes in? I never attempted to learn aiming systems before Stan's DVD and I was looking for something to strenthen my shotmaking a bit and give me a solid foundation to fall back on when I'm not playing my best but how can I do that when I don't even know how to address the CB with this system? Thoughts form any CTE experts on here?
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I think you do get it! :) The balls are dropping off the table. By shooting thousands of shots, your natural alignment is probably pretty close to where it needs to be. The Cte alignment might not look too different to you. That's good.

If you can maintain your present alignment from day to day, that would be even better. What would it take to improve your shotmaking? A slightly more consistent alignment might help you. It would also give you a solid foundation to work off of.

Your alignment is based on your visual perceptions of the table. Cte is one way to get these visuals in the correct place. With the same basic setup for each shot, your mind can recognize consistent visual signals and develop the right physical repetitive movements to correspond to these familiar stimuli. IOW, you do it the right way, enough times, you own it.

This helps eliminate slumps and plateaus, also. It sounds like you're on the right track. It's not broke...don't fix it.

Best,
Mike
 
Mikjary:
Cte works by dialing in your visuals.
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Finally, a description that hints at some objective value from CTE - something that anybody might be able to use, not just those who want a whole new "black box" system. Too bad it takes so much mining to find the occasional gem like this.

The main reason I'm not interested in CTE for myself is that it seems to be tailored for players who just want rote steps to follow and don't want to "get under the hood". I'm not interested in "off the shelf" techniques like this - I want to be able to customize it for myself, or maybe even cannibalize it for the parts I like. I'm pretty sure that if there are any real objective lessons to be learned from CTE, they'll be clear and easy to understand by anybody.

pj
chgo
 
peppersauce:
So now I'm asking myself, is it the system and the fact that every shot I shoot with it is center ball or is it just because I've shot thousands upon thousands of balls and I'm simply adjusting so the ball goes in?
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This is the question at the heart of the "exact" vs. "by feel" controversy.

From everything I've heard (haven't yet seen the DVD), CTE sounds like a "ballpark" system, very similar to Hal Houle's old "fractions" system, that the shooter must "finish by feel". One of the reasons for thinking this (not the only one) is that it takes a while for the system to "click" for its users, which I suspect is the time it takes them to start getting the "finish by feel" part.

I'm not saying this is necessarily a drawback of the system, but it's something that's never openly discussed because CTE users seem to be allergic to the idea.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
This is the question at the heart of the "exact" vs. "by feel" controversy.

From everything I've heard (haven't yet seen the DVD), CTE sounds like a "ballpark" system, very similar to Hal Houle's old "fractions" system, that the shooter must "finish by feel". One of the reasons for thinking this (not the only one) is that it takes a while for the system to "click" for its users, which I suspect is the time it takes them to start getting the "finish by feel" part.

I'm not saying this is necessarily a drawback of the system, but it's something that's never openly discussed because CTE users seem to be allergic to the idea.

pj
chgo
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Dr. Dave has essentially identified Stan's CTE as what you are calling a "ballpark" system. In his summary table, Dr. Dave shows that the method prescribes six different lines of aim for cuts in each direction.

So for any particular amount of separation between the CB and the OB, the method presents six possible cut angles (in each direction) to make the shot. That will make six shots "center pocket," and a lot more shots because of pocket slop, but certainly not all shots. If the distance from the OB to the pocket is large enough, the "gaps" will be too large for the six cut angles plus slop to suffice for all shots. If someone is using it successfully for all shots, he must be adjusting somehow on at least some of those shots.
 
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peppersauce said:
I don't get it. I really don't. It seems to be working for me but I'm still not clear about the line you address the CB on. I haven't read all 20 some odd pages of this thread but I read about 12 pages and I still don't get it. I'm standing behind the CB, I see the 2 reference lines, and I come directly into the shot with the correct half tip offset (L or R), and pivot to centerball. I pull the trigger and the ball goes in. Great! How did I do it? I dunno. I don't even think I was coming into the CB parallel to either line a lot of the time. I was somewhere in between.

At the end of the day it just left me confused because I'm a solid player anyway. So now I'm asking myself, is it the system and the fact that every shot I shoot with it is center ball or is it just because I've shot thousands upon thousands of balls and I'm simply adjusting so the ball goes in? I never attempted to learn aiming systems before Stan's DVD and I was looking for something to strenthen my shotmaking a bit and give me a solid foundation to fall back on when I'm not playing my best but how can I do that when I don't even know how to address the CB with this system? Thoughts form any CTE experts on here?
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I don't consider myself a "solid" player and have a long way to go before I call myself a solid player but I have used CTE/Pro One for a while now.

I think that I have asked some of the same questions as you. I have however used many different aiming systems and consider it fun to learn them. Some I use intermittently and others I drop after trying them for a while.

I think in addition to CTE/Pro One getting you to the correct aiming line (where you need to send the cue), I think pivoting to the center of the cue ball kind of reinforces you and your confidence builds as a result of this. When this happens you are better able to put a "good" stroke on the cue ball which we all know is a critical part of successful execution.

I think one of the problems is that CTE/Pro One is unique, some might even call it odd because you do not focus your mind on the contact point of the object ball. In addition, what is strange to me is that some people of different skill levels seem to "get it" at different levels. Some seem to just ease into it and others struggle frantically until they cry "poppycock". There is a lot of serious frustration about it and that is what perplexes me.

You know it may be that SOME PEOPLE don't need to use CTE/Pro One but I think I am a better player because of CTE/Pro One. I like the fact that I can use it to back up my natural way of aiming when I am unsure of the shot.

What is sad is that some people STILL consider this "discussion" about CTE/Pro One as an opportunity to show how clever they are at twisting the nuts of some of the posters by using one liners to instigate heated emotion from the proponents of CTE/Pro One.

The problem with some people not having successful use of CTE/Pro One may be something as simple as we just don't seem the same things visually. Well, besides some people not having a genuine interest in making an honest effort to make it work.

While I don't use CTE/Pro One exclusively, it sure seems to me that if I can use it with a modicum of success, others ought to be able to do the same.

JoeyA
 
Patrick Johnson said:
This is the question at the heart of the "exact" vs. "by feel" controversy.

From everything I've heard (haven't yet seen the DVD), CTE sounds like a "ballpark" system, very similar to Hal Houle's old "fractions" system, that the shooter must "finish by feel". One of the reasons for thinking this (not the only one) is that it takes a while for the system to "click" for its users, which I suspect is the time it takes them to start getting the "finish by feel" part.

I'm not saying this is necessarily a drawback of the system, but it's something that's never openly discussed because CTE users seem to be allergic to the idea.

pj
chgo
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Patrick,
You might have a point, but it sure doesn't seem like there is no "feel" to CTE/Pro One, at least not for me. There is some adjustments that I personally make but they seem to be more about speed than aiming. There may be feel but I don't see it at least not for me.

It may be that some of us can see the CTE/Pro One visual perspectives of the coordinates more easily than others. I even struggled with the AB& C reference points for a few hours. After I realized that I had to be precise with the coordinates of AB & C, I started making a LOT more balls. Personally I see the CTEL while standing up as well as the AB&C reference points.

The pivoting seems to be an equally important part of the aiming system, contrary to what some people think. I do believe that after a while of using the manual portion of CTE/Pro One, including the pivot, you can automatically go to the after pivot place to make the shot.

JoeyA
 
AtLarge said:
Dr. Dave has essentially identified Stan's CTE as what you are calling a "ballpark" system.
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This has been pretty obvious since the first rudimentary descriptions of it, especially for those of us who were involved in the same discussions years ago about Hal Houle's other systems.

In his summary table, Dr. Dave shows that it prescribes six different lines of aim for cuts in each direction.

So for any particular amount of separation between the CB and the OB, the system presents six possible cut angles (in each direction) to make the shot. That will make a lot of shots "center pocket,"
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This has been analyzed to death over the years, and the fact is that not very many shots can be made center-pocket even with six cut angles.

and a lot more shots because of pocket slop, but certainly not all shots.
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Not even most.

If the distance from the OB to the pocket is large enough, the "gaps" will be too large for the six cut angles plus slop to suffice for all shots. If someone is using it successfully for all shots, he must be adjusting somehow on at least some of those shots.
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Adjustments must be made for most shots - if they're more than a couple of feet from the pocket, then it's the vast majority of shots. This is simple to calculate and has been done over and over.

But this doesn't mean the system isn't useful or even essential for some. It's too bad we have to walk on eggs around what should be a mundane topic.

pj
chgo
 
JoeyA said:
Patrick,
You might have a point, but it sure doesn't seem like there is [any] "feel" to CTE/Pro One, at least not for me.
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Yeah, I get that - for you and just about every other CTE user. In fact it's so uniformly felt by CTE users that I suspect it's an essential perception for the system to work.

The pivoting seems to be an equally important part of the aiming system
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Clearly. I think it's the part that makes its "exactness" convincing for its users. But to an analytical person like me the "shift-and-pivot" is obviously an inherently inexact thing that can't possibly add the precision you think it does, except as a Trojan Horse for introducing the element of feel.

But don't get me wrong - I'm not criticizing CTE for working that way, and I don't think that's all there is to how it works. If I thought that I wouldn't be interested at all.

pj
chgo
 
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