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pro players are they the best instructors?
- Thread starter lastdimetaker
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No they don't.
I have traveled across the country teaching (not pool) at the CEO level and IMO, teaching well is a skill unto itself, just like any other.
You must understand your subject matter, know the history, science, and current theory on the subject and be able to intelligibly articulate all that in a manner that a student can understand, internalize, and deploy. You must be able to communicate well enough that you keep the student's attention while expanding their knowledge of the subject at hand. In addition, if you are a true instructor, you develop lesson plans, aids, and follow-ups to assist students in understanding the lesson and build upon what you have taught them.
In my experience, very, very few (almost none) professional pool players meet those standards. They do not understand the basics of teaching. They cannot communicate well. They don't know how they do what they do. More often than not they don't understanding how they do what they do and give out bad explanations and half-baked science instead.
And more often than not they have an almost universal distain for the science, history, and current developments in the craft. They have next to no clue on how to help a student understand, internalize, and deploy what they have to share any further than, "do what I do." And usually they have squadouche when it comes to aids specifically designed to help a student along other than "just watch my last Accu-Stats match."
You can see plenty of evidence for all of this here on AZ.
Lou Figueroa
I have traveled across the country teaching (not pool) at the CEO level and IMO, teaching well is a skill unto itself, just like any other.
You must understand your subject matter, know the history, science, and current theory on the subject and be able to intelligibly articulate all that in a manner that a student can understand, internalize, and deploy. You must be able to communicate well enough that you keep the student's attention while expanding their knowledge of the subject at hand. In addition, if you are a true instructor, you develop lesson plans, aids, and follow-ups to assist students in understanding the lesson and build upon what you have taught them.
In my experience, very, very few (almost none) professional pool players meet those standards. They do not understand the basics of teaching. They cannot communicate well. They don't know how they do what they do. More often than not they don't understanding how they do what they do and give out bad explanations and half-baked science instead.
And more often than not they have an almost universal distain for the science, history, and current developments in the craft. They have next to no clue on how to help a student understand, internalize, and deploy what they have to share any further than, "do what I do." And usually they have squadouche when it comes to aids specifically designed to help a student along other than "just watch my last Accu-Stats match."
You can see plenty of evidence for all of this here on AZ.
Lou Figueroa
Chris, this has always been a silly analogy to me, because some of the best baseball hitting instuctors NEVER played at the top level, heck some never got drafted out of college...(me included, but a pretty good hitting coach none the less)
Some of the best QB coaches in the NFL never played the position at the top level.
Some of the best NHL coaches NEVER competed at the top level in their sport.
Some of the best golf instructors never played top speed.
There has got to be a reason for that?? And pool cannot be so special, that it is the only sport on the planet, that only those that played pro level know what it takes to play top notch.
What makes pool so freaking special, when it is NOT even in the top 50 of difficulty to play...
No offense, but billiards ranked below such sports as curling, bowling, cheerleading, badminton, and ping pong... but billiards did finish one spot ahead of fishing..... fishing ??
I mean, I still love the game...but enough with the you need to be the top dog to teach a sport when the cheerleading coach can kick most of our arses
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Chris, this has always been a silly analogy to me, because some of the best baseball hitting instuctors NEVER played at the top level, heck some never got drafted out of college...(me included, but a pretty good hitting coach none the less)
Some of the best QB coaches in the NFL never played the position at the top level.
Some of the best NHL coaches NEVER competed at the top level in their sport.
Some of the best golf instructors never played top speed.
There has got to be a reason for that?? And pool cannot be so special, that it is the only sport on the planet, that only those that played pro level know what it takes to play top notch.
Want makes pool so freaking special, when it is NOT even in the top 50 of difficulty to play...
No offense, but billiards ranked below such sports as curling, bowling, cheerleading, badminton, and ping pong... but billiards did finish one sport ahead of fishing.....
I mean, I still love the game...but enough with the you need to be the top dog to teach a sport when the cheerleading coach can kick most of our arses
True enough, I still see Pro level players that have more mental strength than game. There are many more elements to winning than fundamentals, without naming names there are some pro's that quite frankly make me cringe watching their technique and left wondering how the heck they manage to even make a ball.
Chris, this has always been a silly analogy to me, because some of the best baseball hitting instuctors NEVER played at the top level, heck some never got drafted out of college...(me included, but a pretty good hitting coach none the less)
Some of the best QB coaches in the NFL never played the position at the top level.
Some of the best NHL coaches NEVER competed at the top level in their sport.
Some of the best golf instructors never played top speed.
There has got to be a reason for that?? And pool cannot be so special, that it is the only sport on the planet, that only those that played pro level know what it takes to play top notch.
Want makes pool so freaking special, when it is NOT even in the top 50 of difficulty to play...
No offense, but billiards ranked below such sports as curling, bowling, cheerleading, badminton, and ping pong... but billiards did finish one sport ahead of fishing.....
I mean, I still love the game...but enough with the you need to be the top dog to teach a sport when the cheerleading coach can kick most of our arses
Alot of the best NHL coaches are the tougher rougher players that when it was crunch time need to score a goal they were on the bench watching and taking things in. I think pros could be great instructors but just beacuse they are pros doesnt make them one. and if someone playes the game and knows the game but havent reached the playing level of pro doesnt mean they cant be the best instuctor in the world it depends on the person. to all the golfers out there how many wins does Butch Harmon have on the pga or how many years did he play on tour? He is one of the greatest instructors of all time.
If we are talking about learning to play pool, vs learning to play pool and becoming a champion, do not dismiss the power of the professional mentor/protege relationship in pool.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if you have two students, who are equal in ability and learning capacity, that the one who gets schooled by a champion, will have a greater chance to become a champion, then the one who is taught by a non champion instructor.
Champions breed champions in my opinion.
Sure you will have exceptions, but I think more players are going to benefit from being exposed to 1st hand championship caliber play, knowledge and insight into different games, vs non championship levels of play and technical instruction provided by regular instructors.
That doesn't mean regular instructors suck. They have their place in the grand sheme of things.
I just don't think a regular instructor is going to take the average pupil to the promised land like a dedicated champion could.
Maybe someone could do a survey of the champions out there, and see how many of them had at one point in time, a champion mentor that taught them, vs those who became champions as a result of instruction from an "instructor"
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if you have two students, who are equal in ability and learning capacity, that the one who gets schooled by a champion, will have a greater chance to become a champion, then the one who is taught by a non champion instructor.
Champions breed champions in my opinion.
Sure you will have exceptions, but I think more players are going to benefit from being exposed to 1st hand championship caliber play, knowledge and insight into different games, vs non championship levels of play and technical instruction provided by regular instructors.
That doesn't mean regular instructors suck. They have their place in the grand sheme of things.
I just don't think a regular instructor is going to take the average pupil to the promised land like a dedicated champion could.
Maybe someone could do a survey of the champions out there, and see how many of them had at one point in time, a champion mentor that taught them, vs those who became champions as a result of instruction from an "instructor"
Except those many non champions that built most of the champions of today in most sports...
Thus by your reasoning,,, Pete Rose's kid should be an All Star,,, never got above double A ball.
Michael Jordan is in fact one of the greatest BB players to ever play the game.... kids got no game, and MJ had a full size BB court in his house !!
Walter Payton's kid... nope, nada.... played a little college ball, and a sting in the NFL that lasted 5 minutes....
Bottom line... if some sports, I want the best instructor, who builds the best players, who have shown the most progress....
But you cannot say for sure, who will build better player,,, the bottom line is go to the one you trust and see for yourself, but comparing one to the other without going to both is futile reallly....
I think it comes down the the indivual. There are people that have the ability to excecute in many different fields, not only just pool, but don't have the ability or patence to teach...transfer that knowledge to another.
I do agree with superstar in that if you have a champion that can teach, you are miles ahead. For me it all comes down to "can the instructor/pro actually convey their knowledge to another person. Some can, some can't.
I do agree with superstar in that if you have a champion that can teach, you are miles ahead. For me it all comes down to "can the instructor/pro actually convey their knowledge to another person. Some can, some can't.
Professional instructors have learned to teach. Therefore they can and do often have very poilished approaches to the concepts and methods.
Professional players have learned to play the game at the highest level under the highest pressure. They can explain what it feels like at that stage and what they do.
Sometimes the two come together in one person but not often. I would guess that Mark Wilson is a good example of a professional player who turned into a great instructor.
My thought is that each group has a lot to offer. Great players offer insights that ONLY come from their level of experience. Great instructors offer analysis that comes from intense study of the mechanics.
Which one will "make" you a champion? Well both and neither. You make you a champion by the amount of flat out work you are willing to put in using whatever information you have.
But ask yourself this,
If you had to play a set for your life in a month's time who would you prefer to have instructing you? A professional player the caliber of Buddy Hall-Bustamante-Shane Van Boeing OR a professional instructor like Scott Lee, Randy Goetlicher, Stand Shuffet.....
Here is my answer.
I would rather have the pro because I feel that the pro can tell me what to do under pressure and teach me ways of playing that the pro instructor might not be able to in that amount of time.
BUT
If I had my dream choice then it would be pro instructors for technique and pro players for strategy and advanced technique.
I feel that both are important. Pro football coaches are most often themselves not former pro players but former pro players do make great coaches sometimes.
I personally have always gotten something from professional player instruction that has elevated my game. And often that is something that I did not see anywhere else.
And that includes in-person instruction from pro players as well as the videos put out by them.
Haven't had lessons with a regular instructor but have with a pro.
On fundamentals and the basic stuff I would stick to a instructor,on little tad bits(secrets) on banking, kicking ,shot making,pattern play ,breaking,safety play and Im probably forgetting something but I would go with a pro. But probably both can get it done.:smile:
On fundamentals and the basic stuff I would stick to a instructor,on little tad bits(secrets) on banking, kicking ,shot making,pattern play ,breaking,safety play and Im probably forgetting something but I would go with a pro. But probably both can get it done.:smile:
So what pro told you to just watch their matches?
I don't specifically know what pros you have taken lessons from but I can list the ones I have taken lessons from.
Danny Medina (RIP)
Jimmy Reid
Gerry Watson
Rodney Morris
Jose Parica
Buddy Hall
"Tracy" Joe Salazar
Cliff Joyner
Rafael Martinez
and NONE of those guys were disdainful of the "science" in pool. In fact they didn't even bother to talk about the science of pool. Nor did they list their academic credentials and of course their repuation and accomplishments preceded them.
What they DID do is ask me what I wanted to know and preceded to show me all they knew about what I asked about.
I think you are projecting your own peevishness onto the discussion. Because you are upset about being called out so many times on your own brand of instruction, "Lou's Rules" so to speak you are transfering your malcontent with the pros on AZ (the few who are left) to the professional players in general and that is not fair.
I have been lucky in my life that when I owned Instroke I was able to rub shoulders with professional players quite a bit. I would trade them cases for lessons and badger them with questions whenever I could. Working for Sterling brought me into deeper contact with some pros and so I could spend more table time with them.
I am sorry but what you describe just isn't my own experience at ALL. All of the pros I know have always been friendly and ready to answer questions to the best of their ability. And that ability has generally been more than sufficient to give me plenty to work on.
There are always examples, pro and con, for every opinion and for every sport. If we really knew the answer, there'd be champion built every day, without fail.
One basic commonality is that a beginner should have an instructor to learn how to do the physical movements. The advanced player would benefit from the mentoring of a seasoned pro. Again, there are many exceptions to these examples, but they seem more realistic.
Best,
Mike
One basic commonality is that a beginner should have an instructor to learn how to do the physical movements. The advanced player would benefit from the mentoring of a seasoned pro. Again, there are many exceptions to these examples, but they seem more realistic.
Best,
Mike
Team USA hardened gamblers each with their own homespun way of doing things they like short rack rotation and manipulating handicaps and seeding because the money is more important than the pool
Team Europe hardened practice rats with impeccable mechanics and multiple coaches..they prefer straight pool against the toughest possible competition because they want to find out if they are the best.. they play to test themselves and the money is just gravy.
the performance level of the Americans has steadily fallen over the past decade.. while Europe continues to get stronger and stronger..
it's no accident... Modern Cue Coaching WORKS!!!
I can't be the only one who see's this
Team Europe hardened practice rats with impeccable mechanics and multiple coaches..they prefer straight pool against the toughest possible competition because they want to find out if they are the best.. they play to test themselves and the money is just gravy.
the performance level of the Americans has steadily fallen over the past decade.. while Europe continues to get stronger and stronger..
it's no accident... Modern Cue Coaching WORKS!!!
I can't be the only one who see's this
Yes but it needed to be said by an American lol
That's why you're a "superstar"
Yes, you are correct, few champions had lessons, and all had mentors. That's why you're a "superstar" isn't it? I thought so.
Yes, you are correct, few champions had lessons, and all had mentors. That's why you're a "superstar" isn't it? I thought so.
I commented on how well she had picked up skiing
I showed this picture because it's two of my greatest personal teachers. Hank Haney (Tiger Woods swing coach for 5 years) and Mark O'Meara, who won the British Open and Masters in the same year. The thread was about Instructors and pros and here are two of the best in golf standing side by side.
We were all out in Utah at Deer Valley skiing a few years ago over the week of Christmas and my girlfriend had never skied before. Hank and Mark took her under their "wing" and worked with her for a few hours on her skiing technique (they are both accomplished skiers), on the way up the lift later that day I commented on how well she had picked up skiing and that she had two of the best instructors "on the mountain".
She didn't consider it a very big deal, but I wondered how many golf enthusiasts wouldn't think it was the greatest to be taught by Hank Haney and Mark O'meara, two of the legends of golf and nicest gentleman I could ever hope to meet. I'm grateful for all my teachers. 'The Game, No Matter What Game, is the Teacher'
I showed this picture because it's two of my greatest personal teachers. Hank Haney (Tiger Woods swing coach for 5 years) and Mark O'Meara, who won the British Open and Masters in the same year. The thread was about Instructors and pros and here are two of the best in golf standing side by side.
We were all out in Utah at Deer Valley skiing a few years ago over the week of Christmas and my girlfriend had never skied before. Hank and Mark took her under their "wing" and worked with her for a few hours on her skiing technique (they are both accomplished skiers), on the way up the lift later that day I commented on how well she had picked up skiing and that she had two of the best instructors "on the mountain".
She didn't consider it a very big deal, but I wondered how many golf enthusiasts wouldn't think it was the greatest to be taught by Hank Haney and Mark O'meara, two of the legends of golf and nicest gentleman I could ever hope to meet. I'm grateful for all my teachers. 'The Game, No Matter What Game, is the Teacher'
Um, how does that take into account all the times Team America has won?
This year Europe won 10-9 right? So we can safely say that a few rolls the other direction might have made the score go the other way.
If you really want to go there then explain how it's possible that the top three at the Turning Stone event were Americans? Honestly it makes no sense to try and analyze WHY one guy wins or why one team wins or loses when they are all so close.
Practice rats? I would put Shane's practice regimen up against the European players and probably have a good bet that his lifetime practice time beats any two of them combined. Maybe that's a stretch but the point is that no American player got to the pro level without major amounts of practice.
And then if we go even further you have the Filipinos who stay strong by gambling with each other and don't have coaches vs. the Taiwanese who practice diligently AND who also gamble incessantly.
Point being that none of them are good examples of what you call modern coaching vs. pure table time and as such really has no relevance to the discussion.
The plain fact is that any player on the Mosconi cup teams can beat any other player in a race to five at any time. Those short sets simply don't mean anything even if they are pressure sets as some have pointed out.
They don't mean that one player is better than the opponent or that the team is better than the other team. They mean that in set A that player won and in set B the other player won.
At that level all the players are so close that if you took Mike Dechaine and put him on the European team and changed his name to Mikael Dushumsky then you would be praising him as an example of modern coaching, whatever that is.
Now, as to the assertion that the Europeans play just to test themselves? I don't think so. Maybe in the lower leagues but the players who do it professionally are playing to win the money and they definitely don't want to draw the top ten every tournament just to test themselves.
The key factor to why the Americans are the underdogs is the break.
The USA team was up against every obstacle and it still came down to the last match. Shane was certainly a huge favorite in the finals considering the situation. I believe D.A. would even agree, he was in at a huge disadvantage, not because he's the underdog, just because of the momentum. As any Champion knows pool, ultimately is a Game of momentum in the final stages of a tournament, especially the M.C. format.
The key factor to why the Americans are the underdogs is the break. We NEVER play with the 9Ball on the spot and it changes the whole scenario. With the one on the spot the American Team would be huge favorites, Mike Dechaine, Johnny Archer, Shane, Brandon and Dennis Hatch all have phenomenal breaks, but they just have average "cut breaks".
The Europeans play with the 9 on the spot all year and the "cut break" is something they have mastered. These are facts, they can have the "home court advantage" and all the other advantages, just rack the one on the spot and America goes from underdogs to favorites .... America wins, and every player knows .... 'The Game is the Teacher'
The USA team was up against every obstacle and it still came down to the last match. Shane was certainly a huge favorite in the finals considering the situation. I believe D.A. would even agree, he was in at a huge disadvantage, not because he's the underdog, just because of the momentum. As any Champion knows pool, ultimately is a Game of momentum in the final stages of a tournament, especially the M.C. format.
The key factor to why the Americans are the underdogs is the break. We NEVER play with the 9Ball on the spot and it changes the whole scenario. With the one on the spot the American Team would be huge favorites, Mike Dechaine, Johnny Archer, Shane, Brandon and Dennis Hatch all have phenomenal breaks, but they just have average "cut breaks".
The Europeans play with the 9 on the spot all year and the "cut break" is something they have mastered. These are facts, they can have the "home court advantage" and all the other advantages, just rack the one on the spot and America goes from underdogs to favorites .... America wins, and every player knows .... 'The Game is the Teacher'
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