And had world class coaching and intense training the whole time. Taiwan is a hyper condensed pool scene, especially at that time.
I could turn you into a champion if put you into that scene.
Pro players who did not start playing at a very young age?
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And had world class coaching and intense training the whole time. Taiwan is a hyper condensed pool scene, especially at that time.
I could turn you into a champion if put you into that scene.
You are right about Oscar.
Although Oscar and his brothers probably hit balls at a young age none of them took an interest in learning how to play the game. Oscar started learning how to play at 17. He played in handicapped tournaments and would get spots from a lot of players. By 18 there were only a few of us still spotting him. By 19 he was playing even with the best of us and spotting everyone else. By 20 he was the best and spotting everyone. (All ages are roughly based on my recall.)
I was still spotting him a ball when we met in the final of a pretty good paying tournament. I asked him what he wanted to do (it was late and a lot of players like to split first and second money). His reply was how about we play for it all (first and second money). He always had a ton of heart.
You're not going to make it. I don't give a crap what all these Millennials say about passion, and following your dreams, you are simply starting too late.
You can get good. You can get damn good. But, you'll never get to the Pro level as far as ability goes.
Stay in school, son. Get a good job.
Nope. I refuse. It's disappointing to see so many people say "get a good job" and not "follow your heart." I don't subscribe to that school of thought anymore.
Its cool to follow your dreams but just make sure you define them first. If your game is not where you expect it to be in a couple years you are still young enough to get an education and a decent job. The downside to pro pool is that it sounds like a tough way to put food on the table. If you are really serious about following your dreams it seems like Green Bay and the Fox Valley may not be the best place for your pool "education", maybe fishing, hunting, and a beer drinking education but not pool. From the sounds of it a year in the Philippines would get you a Masters degree in pool.
Then good luck to you. It's not likely you'll remember any of this when you're a fifty-five year old cab driver with nothing down the road to look forward to except more cab driving. Most all of us will be gone, anyway, not that we really gave a shit in the first place.
1) I said play pro-speed.
2) My career goal is to be a life coach.
3) Following your passion creates the life your heart wants. People usually misinterpret this to mean what you think you want (as in logical wants). Following the money is a logical want. Basing your life around time and money is a logical want, and it's also a negative image you're chasing.
As a child you can't comprehend logic enough to analyze before making a decision and so they follow what feels "natural" and as a result they're always full of life and energy and people are attracted to that. This doesn't go away as you get older, your ability to make "heart" decisions is easy but people as they age tend to put more emphasis on logic and what is provable.
As I recently found out this is the wrong way to go about it. Every book, mentoring/coaching session, and motivational speech I've seen embodies this principle. Everything from the Alchemist to a Zig Ziglar speech. I possess a great deal of knowledge from all of my time spent involved with life coaching and it's simply idiotic to follow advice like "get a good job," or "a degree means everything." It's always felt weird living in a 2nd/3rd standard deviation away from the normal.
2) My career goal is to be a life coach.
3) Following your passion creates the life your heart wants. People usually misinterpret this to mean what you think you want (as in logical wants). Following the money is a logical want. Basing your life around time and money is a logical want, and it's also a negative image you're chasing.
As a child you can't comprehend logic enough to analyze before making a decision and so they follow what feels "natural" and as a result they're always full of life and energy and people are attracted to that. This doesn't go away as you get older, your ability to make "heart" decisions is easy but people as they age tend to put more emphasis on logic and what is provable.
As I recently found out this is the wrong way to go about it. Every book, mentoring/coaching session, and motivational speech I've seen embodies this principle. Everything from the Alchemist to a Zig Ziglar speech. I possess a great deal of knowledge from all of my time spent involved with life coaching and it's simply idiotic to follow advice like "get a good job," or "a degree means everything." It's always felt weird living in a 2nd/3rd standard deviation away from the normal.
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I may be mistaken about this, but I think that of the old-time pool players Bill ("Weenie Beenie") Staton and Ray Martin may have started pool comparatively late in their lives.
Other than that, I usually don't wade in during contentious exchanges on the Forum, but here goes. It is truly disgusting for us people who were raised as children on piano lessons to learn that the pros were at the same age practicing their draw stroke and learning to bridge over balls! Can the pros play the F minor scale allegro? I'll spot them my thumbs on the black keys! My point is that it is rather obvious that if a person is not all thumbs and is brought up doing something regularly and seriously he is going to be better at it than most people who come to it late.
However, and here I come to the Oscar Dominguez question, I'm not sure how much you have to perform some action when you are young in order to have that experience benefit you. My family were not serious card players, but we played on Sunday evenings. I deal cards very smoothly and without any thought about the action. Those Sunday evenings fixed something in my actions at a very early age. So even if Oscar didn't play very seriously or often when he was a little kid, he still, from what Ernesto says about building a small table, probably played some, and that "some" may have been what gave him a leg up.
On the question of following your dream, perhaps we could offer this advice to "ZPhix." Try the pool seriously for a year and see what progress you have made. But if at the end of that year you can't run thirty balls in straight pool or two racks in nine ball, give it up and regard it as a recreation, for there are a lot of guys out there who could do those two things after a year of serious application and they are going to be the ones who are going to be the pros.
And above all, never ever think you are going to make a living off of pool--unless some angel comes along and completely changes the geography of the game, which we all pray for.
Other than that, I usually don't wade in during contentious exchanges on the Forum, but here goes. It is truly disgusting for us people who were raised as children on piano lessons to learn that the pros were at the same age practicing their draw stroke and learning to bridge over balls! Can the pros play the F minor scale allegro? I'll spot them my thumbs on the black keys! My point is that it is rather obvious that if a person is not all thumbs and is brought up doing something regularly and seriously he is going to be better at it than most people who come to it late.
However, and here I come to the Oscar Dominguez question, I'm not sure how much you have to perform some action when you are young in order to have that experience benefit you. My family were not serious card players, but we played on Sunday evenings. I deal cards very smoothly and without any thought about the action. Those Sunday evenings fixed something in my actions at a very early age. So even if Oscar didn't play very seriously or often when he was a little kid, he still, from what Ernesto says about building a small table, probably played some, and that "some" may have been what gave him a leg up.
On the question of following your dream, perhaps we could offer this advice to "ZPhix." Try the pool seriously for a year and see what progress you have made. But if at the end of that year you can't run thirty balls in straight pool or two racks in nine ball, give it up and regard it as a recreation, for there are a lot of guys out there who could do those two things after a year of serious application and they are going to be the ones who are going to be the pros.
And above all, never ever think you are going to make a living off of pool--unless some angel comes along and completely changes the geography of the game, which we all pray for.
I think what some are trying to say is dont bet on pool being your main source of income to pay for your home, car food ect. Set yourself up for a good job that offers decent pay and lots of regular scheduled time off like working at a bank or something.
There is no money in pool . I dont think anyone would disagree with that. NOT EVEN ON AZ!!!! lol.
There is no money in pool . I dont think anyone would disagree with that. NOT EVEN ON AZ!!!! lol.
the middle road
"You can do what you want to do, you can go where you want to go, you can be what you want to be." Yes, Zig Ziglar's words of wisdom.
I am a 15 year sales professional and was a sales manager of a team. I actually had weekly team meetings where I played Ziggy for them, to expose them to the almost magical powers of goal setting, visualization, and taking accountability for your life. I have accomplished a lot in the sales world. In pool I have done alright as well and play the game in a way most simply never will. So you won't get a bigger supporter of the freedom that comes with overcoming our limiting self-beliefs and untapping our true potential.
This approach can be misinterpreted however. I am not suggesting you are misinterpreting it or that we disagree. I just think some people take you to mean something you aren't saying.
First off, there is a reality to contend with. Pool just doesn't pay. SVB is the only player in this country that is positive EV playing the darn game, maybe hall/berg/miked can be close as long as they are single with no children/house. And even SVB is not married at this time. So for anyone who's "do what you want to do" includes having a family, well, pool is simply not a very good game for it. Yes, you can look at Archer or Varner...but then you had better look at the hundreds of other players that traded their souls for this game and didn't get there. Unless you have some clear ideas of what you're going to bring to the table that they didn't, the reality is that the outcomes will likely be similar.
Another thing people get confused is that developing your potential doesn't mean do whatever you want to do. There is a lot of new age bs going around on youtube, and many people make the mistake of thinking that they are the special chosen ones that have wisely figured out that they are eagles and meant to soar, and that it's silly to walk on the ground with the beasts of burden. Not only will many of them fall prey to my first point (reality is reality), many will fall prey to my second- going out and getting what you want doesn't lead to content. Happiness doesn't come from getting what you want. Happiness is more about wanting what you get. And furthermore...life isn't about being happy. It's about serving others, serving God, honoring him by realizing your gifts in his name. If you do this you will have moments of happiness, and deep happiness at that. But glorifying yourself by serving your will and conquering, that leads to nothing.
These overlap, but the next point is that our will is not overpowerful. At any time we can be struck down. The proud fall. All of the things it takes to play good pool, or do anything, will be taken away. Some of us will cherish these gifts for many years, some will lose it suddenly. But these gifts are merely on loan. For us to put a fence around it and act as if we earned it because we are so special and super-awesome and we have what others don't...well, anyone that feels that way simply hasn't been exposed to the profound tragedies that can befall us in life. Those that have lived through TRUE adversity are very, very humble, because the truth is we can only do anything "God Willing". To tie this to my last point, much of the hardship is caused by entitlement and the pursuit of happiness. We cause a lot of suffering to each other because so many of us serve ourselves first thinking we are enlightened for figuring out we are eagles, when the truly enlightened one is the one that spends some time plowing the fields and knowing it is a fool.
I have no agenda, but I do believe the answer is the middle way as they say. I have done my share of goal setting and conquering. I have felt the pain of some truly profound and humbling losses. What I've found is that most of the 'pursuing my passions' has come naturally. By pouring my heart into what I do, more and more the work that is put in front of me is in line with my passions. Be it that sales is a game much like pool that I enjoy, or that my children bring out the adventurous side of me and fill my heart even though having children wasn't in my plans at one point in my life. Most importantly I am appreciative of it every day as I know it will be taken away sometime soon. I still have some great pool in me, but reality is reality, pursuing my happiness is not my priority, and it all depends on what God has in store.
"You can do what you want to do, you can go where you want to go, you can be what you want to be." Yes, Zig Ziglar's words of wisdom.
I am a 15 year sales professional and was a sales manager of a team. I actually had weekly team meetings where I played Ziggy for them, to expose them to the almost magical powers of goal setting, visualization, and taking accountability for your life. I have accomplished a lot in the sales world. In pool I have done alright as well and play the game in a way most simply never will. So you won't get a bigger supporter of the freedom that comes with overcoming our limiting self-beliefs and untapping our true potential.
This approach can be misinterpreted however. I am not suggesting you are misinterpreting it or that we disagree. I just think some people take you to mean something you aren't saying.
First off, there is a reality to contend with. Pool just doesn't pay. SVB is the only player in this country that is positive EV playing the darn game, maybe hall/berg/miked can be close as long as they are single with no children/house. And even SVB is not married at this time. So for anyone who's "do what you want to do" includes having a family, well, pool is simply not a very good game for it. Yes, you can look at Archer or Varner...but then you had better look at the hundreds of other players that traded their souls for this game and didn't get there. Unless you have some clear ideas of what you're going to bring to the table that they didn't, the reality is that the outcomes will likely be similar.
Another thing people get confused is that developing your potential doesn't mean do whatever you want to do. There is a lot of new age bs going around on youtube, and many people make the mistake of thinking that they are the special chosen ones that have wisely figured out that they are eagles and meant to soar, and that it's silly to walk on the ground with the beasts of burden. Not only will many of them fall prey to my first point (reality is reality), many will fall prey to my second- going out and getting what you want doesn't lead to content. Happiness doesn't come from getting what you want. Happiness is more about wanting what you get. And furthermore...life isn't about being happy. It's about serving others, serving God, honoring him by realizing your gifts in his name. If you do this you will have moments of happiness, and deep happiness at that. But glorifying yourself by serving your will and conquering, that leads to nothing.
These overlap, but the next point is that our will is not overpowerful. At any time we can be struck down. The proud fall. All of the things it takes to play good pool, or do anything, will be taken away. Some of us will cherish these gifts for many years, some will lose it suddenly. But these gifts are merely on loan. For us to put a fence around it and act as if we earned it because we are so special and super-awesome and we have what others don't...well, anyone that feels that way simply hasn't been exposed to the profound tragedies that can befall us in life. Those that have lived through TRUE adversity are very, very humble, because the truth is we can only do anything "God Willing". To tie this to my last point, much of the hardship is caused by entitlement and the pursuit of happiness. We cause a lot of suffering to each other because so many of us serve ourselves first thinking we are enlightened for figuring out we are eagles, when the truly enlightened one is the one that spends some time plowing the fields and knowing it is a fool.
I have no agenda, but I do believe the answer is the middle way as they say. I have done my share of goal setting and conquering. I have felt the pain of some truly profound and humbling losses. What I've found is that most of the 'pursuing my passions' has come naturally. By pouring my heart into what I do, more and more the work that is put in front of me is in line with my passions. Be it that sales is a game much like pool that I enjoy, or that my children bring out the adventurous side of me and fill my heart even though having children wasn't in my plans at one point in my life. Most importantly I am appreciative of it every day as I know it will be taken away sometime soon. I still have some great pool in me, but reality is reality, pursuing my happiness is not my priority, and it all depends on what God has in store.
So here's the deal, after two years you should be making balls with regularity, including hard shots. You should be able to play basic position efficiently and more difficult position occasionally. You still have a LOT to learn about good play and when to go for a shot and when to play safe (and what a good safe looks like). I haven't mentioned kicking at balls effectively and having a decent jump shot where you consistently hit the object ball and don't foul.
There are many tricky little shots in pool that you will need to learn and recognize when they come up. That takes experience! You should have developed some kind of decent stroke already which is consistent and uniform. It will improve with time.
It helps if you were a good athlete already and being in good physical condition is a big plus. 20-30 hours a week is not a lot. In fact it's minimal for the results you are trying to achieve. To really become a good player you need to play long sessions as often as possible, and I'm talking about eight hours and up. A few all-nighters will do wonders for your game. You will be surprised at the small improvements you make when you're feeling tired and weary. That's when you will have a breakthrough and find a more efficient way to shoot a shot! Underline this! A slight shift in your feet and your hands can do wonders for your game sometimes.
Spend time watching good players that you want to emulate. It helps to see how they go about things. All the pep talks and motivational speeches won't help you make balls unfortunately. That takes practice and plenty of it. All these top players you see today have spent countless hours at the table for YEARS of their life, to the point of obsession. I've seen just about every motivational method of the last forty years and I can only recommend one today. If you're interested contact me here. Other than that I would recommend yoga and meditation to help you stay centered and focused when you play.
Last thing, you are still young enough to get as far as you want in pool. It has been done before. I started at age 18 and in three years of total absorption I was a shortstop speed player. My goals were to be the best player I could be but also to own my own poolroom, which I did at age 27. After that I was a businessman first and pool player second and it worked out well for me. Being successful in life is all about hard work! Dedication trumps intelligence and natural talent every time. There are some damn good high school baseball players (all stars) sitting in the stands watching major league games every day. And there are lesser players out on the field who worked harder than them! Remember that.
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One word... persistence!
There will no doubt be times when you are chasing your dreams when reaching them will seem impossible to you. Don't give up.
This is good advice to have a satisfying life. If you follow your dream and work hard at it, things will turn out okay.
We don't disagree.
I think a lot of the people who try to soar though - are doing so by chasing the wrong wants they have. Someone who is an artist at heart cannot soar by being an office worker.
I also agree that happiness is not the goal. Happiness is the byproduct of doing what you love and so is everything else. Money is the byproduct and not the goal, etc. Whatever generates the most passion in you is what you should do with your life. If having a family is where your passion lies then I'd say you wouldn't want to be a pro pool player (as you said).
I'd also say that the players who gave their life and souls for this game were doing so while chasing a negative vision and were bound to fail. I'm not trying to make a living by playing pool - I simply want to play pro-speed and be able to compete in Open tournaments.
What attracts players to guys like SVB isn't just his skill it's the intensity and passion he plays with, and that skill comes from that pure intensity. I think people misinterpret pure intensity of pleasure. If you simply find pleasure in playing this game then you won't make it as a pro, but I believe that the pros played with intensity from the start (like Sky at 14 or 15).
Doesn't seem like we disagree. Really enjoyed reading your response buddy!
-Richard
It's not enough time on the table to really get you where you want to go. You may continue to improve and even get to be a very good amateur player, capable of winning a match against a pro. But you won't be a champion or someone who can compete successfully in professional tournaments. Trust me on that and I don't care what kind of coaching you get.
Take a year off and play 8-10 hours a day and then tell me how you're doing. Three years of that regimen and you may actually achieve something!
Thanks for the reply Jay and your analysis is spot-on. After two years I do make balls with regularity, and my position play and thinking is getting there. I'm capable of running racks right now basically.
The motivational speaking stuff isn't for pool though. That's a separate goal I have. I think you understand this but I just want to clarify. I put the time into pool that's required to get good and I'm not trying to find a faster route or cheat or use a gimmick. I want to grind it out to get good because that's the only way I develop confidence in anything.
As for yoga and meditation - already covered =) I'll PM you about that last motivational method though. Might pick up a caveat from you.
As for the 20-30 hours. That's only what I can manage right now. When I was back at UNI in Wisconsin I was playing around 6-8 hours a day. I'd be doing the same thing now if I had a table at home.
I'm sending you a PM Jay!
-Richard
You know, if I close my eyes I could swear this was coming from you-know-who.
Let me ask you something Helfert, do you wear those cute little skin tight pants when you do yoga?
And meditation. Is that how today's pro pool player stays focused and centered? I tried it once but it didn't work. I got tinnitus.
Oh yeah, one last thing. How much do shortstops make these days? And, I don't mean the ones in baseball.
From age 21 to 27 I managed to save over 15K. I was winning an average of 50-100 a day playing in poolrooms (daytime) and bars at night. This was over forty years ago when 15 thou was real money. It allowed me to buy my first poolroom in Bakersfield for 40K with an 11K down payment. Thanks to that investment in myself and further investments in real estate I can now buy and sell guys like you. :thumbup:
P.S. The only ones who get to see me in my skin tight pants are cute young girls that you would be drooling over. But you don't have a clue about things like that I'm sure.
From age 21 to 27 I managed to save over 15K. I was winning an average of 50-100 a day playing in poolrooms (daytime) and bars at night. This was over forty years ago when 15 thou was real money. It allowed me to buy my first poolroom in Bakersfield for 40K with an 11K down payment. Thanks to that investment in myself and further investments in real estate I can now buy and sell guys like you. :thumbup:
P.S. The only ones who get to see me in my skin tight pants are cute young girls that you would be drooling over. But you don't have a clue about things like that I'm sure.
Even if any of this was true, why would you, as an adult, be leading this naive young man down a path to ruin. It's shameful.
And, you and I both know, the only cute young girls you ever see are the ones whose boyfriends are sitting out in an idling car in your driveway. :thumbup: