Pro Pre-shot routine

SpiderWebComm said:
I think Efren's stroke and routine is the best that ever was. His stance/preshot is quite amazing. Exact same every single time.... and his feet placement are perfect. His stroke is also laser straight and perfect.

Just because someone loops their stroke does not make it incorrect or wrong. A lot of pros stroke that way and it's not because they never had a lesson --- it's because that works best for them. Anything that isn't a perfect pendulum does not equate to "poor fundamentals" as long as the stroke is straight and consistent. Poor fundamentals results in delivering the cue crookedly or on the wrong vector. Someone might "loop" to get really loose, more so than a pendulum or piston.

I always reject the notion that someone can stroke straight super consistently and have "poor fundamentals." Their fundamentals may not be for everyone, but they're perfect for them (and maybe some others).

That's why I think we should de-program ourselves on what "book fundamentals" are. I think good teachers can adapt with their students. See how they perform with different styles. For example, I've always cradled my cue with my middle and ring finger and I've been experimenting with Busty's finger configuration he demonstrated during his TAR interview. It definitely provides a different feel and a more fluid flow of cue movement. I'm going to keep experimenting and adjusting.

As Nicklaus told Sergio while walking down the fairway (when mic'd up), "If you're not adjusting, you're not improving."

I agree w/ that. Keep an open mind.
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I have to agree with you on a whole lot of the above. Book Fundamentals are exactly that... They work great in a book but because we are all different in our vision and physiology they will not be the "best" answer for some players....

I do think that starting out having a solid lesson on fundamentals would be the proper path and I think that a player struggling or not progressing would do well to have a lesson.

Everything either evolves or dies including the progress in our games... I like the Niklaus quote I think I have to agree 100% with it even tho I have had to scrap some adjustments after going down the road to find out they in the end caused problems instead of improvement.....
 
The Renfro said:
I have to agree with you on a whole lot of the above. Book Fundamentals are exactly that... They work great in a book but because we are all different in our vision and physiology they will not be the "best" answer for some players....

I do think that starting out having a solid lesson on fundamentals would be the proper path and I think that a player struggling or not progressing would do well to have a lesson.

Everything either evolves or dies including the progress in our games... I like the Niklaus quote I think I have to agree 100% with it even tho I have had to scrap some adjustments after going down the road to find out they in the end caused problems instead of improvement.....
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Hopefully no one takes my post as saying "teach yourself." I've benefited from lot of lessons -- many from different instructors as to try to get the full gamut of styles and philosophies.

... and you're correct.... adjustments don't always mean forward progression; they can also mean backward progression. I think what Jack was trying to say if you play like X and want to play like 2X, you have to adjust and do things differently. Some of those things might make you 3/4X; but nothing is preventing you from reverting back and starting over from your baseline.

Personally, I'd rather risk failure than to play the same speed forever.

And another thing--- I hope no one takes my earlier post as saying pendulum stroking is bad-- it's not. If one can incorporate it the right way, it's powerful. For those who try and it's not for them after a long period of time, don't be afraid to piston it--- elbow drop it --- loop stroke it --- whatever. Sometimes when you TRY to be straight, it's impossible. Sometimes when you think it's OK to loop, you straighten up like an arrow during the moment of truth. The mind is a funny thing.

Anyways, that's my take--- all methods are valid was my point and to be sure to include all in your knowledge base equally and without prejudice.

Open minds.
 
Agree with Spidey on several points.

First, Efren has a great PSR. So good, that I tried "copying" it for a while. I like the rhythm he gets into, and he does the same thing on every shot. It actually doesn't work for me, but certainly trying things out and always adjusting is a positive thing. I do think emulating a player that has a similar rhythm and style can be a good thing.

As Fran said, look at the players that are winning. Any sport, not just pool. Very few are just natural seat-of-your-pants players, they all have great routines that allow them to focus and get in the zone. Tiger in golf, Nadal in tennis, Efren/Strickland/SVB in pool. Tiger takes the same exact number of seconds on putts, I think I read it long ago that it was 17 seconds and varied very, very little from putt to putt. And I'm sure Nadal doesn't need to keep tucking his hair in or getting his shorts off his butt on every fricking shot, but he does it and I'm sure this routine calms him down and acts as a trigger to initiate his serve.

Scott
 
Like Dave Segal put it into well chosen words.
not everything works for everybody. And to force someone to something, where he s not comfortable with-or for whatever reason is not able to...that s a thing for an expirienced instructor. He should see, where the real problem of a player is and should not try to make a *textbook pattern* from him.
I m for sure also a believer if it s about good fundamentals and i can be a real good prayer on this point, lol.
But there are so different humans-how could they play always with the same style?. I have atm 8 students- 2 guys of them have now really *almost* textbook fundamentals- BECAUSE THEY WANTED IT and they had the physical stance for it where they re comfortable with.
My little norwegian guy has such a wonderful fluid stroke, which is totally natural.....if i would here try to bash him into using a textbook stance and textbook stroke.....i would ruin him and his game.
The only thing i pulled out of his game was, that he has to minimize the bodymovement, and that he has to align perfectly for each shot. That was the key. And not the stroke itself, what several idiots told me about it.
I want to help a student- and don t want to cheer myself bc he looks like i would like to have him looking.


K- i ran a bit offtopic,

again.

Spidey. Very nice posting my friend :)

lg
Ingo
 
PGHteacher said:
Well said and some of the things that I said just said better.




Yes



Well yes and no; the laws of physics dictate that when the backswing makes the transition to the forward swing it has to stop, well yes of course. The question is that of it being purposeful or not. For me this is not a “stage” of my PSR that has a purpose it is just something that must happen, not a conscious “part” of what I am INTENDING to do.




Yes; until the ball goes in the hole, hits the rail, I have to get out of the way of a moving ball cb/ob, the cb decelerates or I have some kind of audio or visual “cue” that tells me it is ok to get up.




but



Why would a somebody ask a nobody to explain something to a somebody that they know 10,000x more about than the nobody does? I can’t imagine the reason for this question; it confuses me to a degree that I must use emoticons. Sounds like you’re trying to get me to say something? That’s just a shot in the dark but I am just at a complete loss as to why you would ask this?????

:shrug:

So I am forced to answer your question with a question. That is something I don’t normally do because I consider it rude and I a big advocate of politeness. I am not trying to be rude I am not trying to be “smart”; in fact I am really trying the opposite. I know you know and you know that I know and I know that you know that I know this we all know, but I have to ask anyway because it’s the only way to explain myself.

I may be in complete error and I will freely admit to that right off the bat; what does SPF stand for?
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I don't consider you rude at all. My question was asked because you used "SPF" in your post. I just asked if you knew what SPF meant.

SET
PAUSE
FINISH

All pool strokes have the same three ingredients no matter whose got ahold of the cue stick. SPF are specific words that we coined to describe each of those three non-movements. SPF is used by our Family of Instructors to grade our students strokes (or anyone's for that matter). By breaking your stroke down into three non-movements one knows what is good or poor in their stroke. Then they are able to correct what needs to be corrected. SPF is nothing more than a diagnostic tool used to evaluate a stroke.

Thanks
randyg
 
poolguy4u said:
What is a pre-shot routine? :shrug:

Does that mean chalking up before every shot?
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A Pre-shot Routine is a series of steps that one would follow before every shot. The purpose of the Routine is to keep a player in unison with their Mental & Physical. Good Pre-shot Routines are separated into three categories: THINK-SEE-DO. In other works: First we Analyze then Visualize then Execute.

Chalking before every shot is a SWITCH to kick in our first Pre-shot Routine.

randyg
 
Randy says it well...

randyg said:
A Pre-shot Routine is a series of steps that one would follow before every shot. The purpose of the Routine is to keep a player in unison with their Mental & Physical. Good Pre-shot Routines are separated into three categories: THINK-SEE-DO. In other works: First we Analyze then Visualize then Execute.

Chalking before every shot is a SWITCH to kick in our first Pre-shot Routine.

randyg
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I teach a 6-step routine that adds two mental steps and another physical step to SPF.
It fits into Randy's THINK-SEE-DO very nicely:
THINK
1-Choose shot
SEE
2-Plan shot
DO
3-Set
4-Pause
5-Finish
6-Release...Keeping in mind J. Breisath's "POSE", I make the RELEASE after the POSE and important final step that eliminates any unwanted movement during execution.

The important thing is to do your routine in the same order every time, as I described in my P & B articles "Getting Your Game in Order" and "Premature Execution". One must complete each step before moving to the next...

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor
 
Donny Lutz said:
I teach a 6-step routine that adds two mental steps and another physical step to SPF.
It fits into Randy's THINK-SEE-DO very nicely:
THINK
1-Choose shot
SEE
2-Plan shot
DO
3-Set
4-Pause
5-Finish
6-Release...Keeping in mind J. Breisath's "POSE", I make the RELEASE after the POSE and important final step that eliminates any unwanted movement during execution.

The important thing is to do your routine in the same order every time, as I described in my P & B articles "Getting Your Game in Order" and "Premature Execution". One must complete each step before moving to the next...

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor
Click to expand...



OUTSTANDING Donny.
randyg
 
Patso44 said:
Just wondering from other AZers.....Which Professional new or old would you say has the best pre-shot routine?


Thanks for responses.

Patrick
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No one has a better routine than anyone else. Everyone is different.


:smile:Out of the best shooters in my bar you will see people with bent knees and people with their legs straight when shooting.

Bridge arm bent, some have it straight.

Open bridge and closed bridge.

Some people play fast, some people play slow.

Some people shoot hard, some people shoot soft.

Some people sip beer, some people sip pop (soda).

Pool is not that hard. The more you play...the better you get.

:thumbup:


Love all the gimmicks out there. Aiming systems, layered tips, special chalk, special LD shafts, red dot, black dot, pro taper, conical taper, break tips made out of phenolic, G-10.


With all these gimmicks, does anyone think Willie Mosconi would of been a better player in his prime?

Seems people try and make pool complicated. All the same shots come up rack after rack. It doesn't change...put the ball in the hole.
 
Routine and style are different things

poolguy4u said:
No one has a better routine than anyone else. Everyone is different.


:smile:Out of the best shooters in my bar you will see people with bent knees and people with their legs straight when shooting.

Bridge arm bent, some have it straight.

Open bridge and closed bridge.

Some people play fast, some people play slow.

Some people shoot hard, some people shoot soft.

Some people sip beer, some people sip pop (soda).

Pool is not that hard. The more you play...the better you get.

:thumbup:


Love all the gimmicks out there. Aiming systems, layered tips, special chalk, special LD shafts, red dot, black dot, pro taper, conical taper, break tips made out of phenolic, G-10.


With all these gimmicks, does anyone think Willie Mosconi would of been a better player in his prime?

Seems people try and make pool complicated. All the same shots come up rack after rack. It doesn't change...put the ball in the hole.
Click to expand...

Respectfully, I think you may be confusing "pre-shot routine" with style.
A "routine" is a series of steps as part of an action or endeavor (executing a shot in pool). It has little to do with any of the "gimmicks" you describe.
Mosconi had a very definite pre-shot routine, as do all great players. Only exception I can think of would be when someone is hustling and wants to look incompetent.
Another way of saying this is that your aiming technique is part of your style, but simply aiming is a necessary part of your pre-shot routine.

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor
 
I have a set of clay balls. Every once in awhile I take them out and shoot with them. Then I remember how lucky I am to not have been a pool player in that generation.

No doubt, we have more options available to us today than we did years ago. But we also have the ability to choose which options are for us, whether they are aiming systems, low squirt shafts, Simonis 860, and so-on.

Some people are technically-minded and they will always look for logic and order in what they do. You will notice that their pre shot routines are very pronounced and specific.

Some people are more athletic, and they like to jump in with both feet and just do it, and figure it out as they go along.

You should seek out role models who are similar to yourself. If you like logic and order in your routine, then you probably shouldn't try to emulate players who shoot from the hip, and vice versa. However, it doesn't mean you can't learn from someone unlike yourself. There's always something to be learned from great players.
 
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Donny Lutz said:
Respectfully, I think you may be confusing "pre-shot routine" with style.
A "routine" is a series of steps as part of an action or endeavor (executing a shot in pool). It has little to do with any of the "gimmicks" you describe.
Mosconi had a very definite pre-shot routine, as do all great players. Only exception I can think of would be when someone is hustling and wants to look incompetent.
Another way of saying this is that your aiming technique is part of your style, but simply aiming is a necessary part of your pre-shot routine.

Donny L
PBIA/ACS Instructor
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:)

And there you go...making pool more complicated.

A pre-shot routine is the same as style.

No confusion here....:grin:
 
Scott Lee said:
poolbuy4u...That's certainly not true for many people. I've seen many players who have played avidly and regularly for 20-30 years, who have not improved significantly...due to errors and a nonrepeatable stroke.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
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:rolleyes:

Sounds like they need to pick a different sport...Or...they really don't care to get any better. They just like to play and have fun, like it should be played.


It's a game and shouldn't be taken so serious.:eek:

It's fun to win but winning isn't everything.

No one has the same style or pre-shot routine. Everyone is different.

What works for some people will not work for others.



Three different strokes and three different winners----

Keith McCready
Efren Reyes
Mike Sigel

Which would you want to emulate...LOL!

If you play enough and playing good, your pre-shot routine is a natural reaction and you don't even think about it.

It all becomes easy....:grin:
 
poolguy4u said:
:rolleyes:

Sounds like they need to pick a different sport...Or...they really don't care to get any better. They just like to play and have fun, like it should be played.


It's a game and shouldn't be taken so serious.:eek:

It's fun to win but winning isn't everything.

No one has the same style or pre-shot routine. Everyone is different.

What works for some people will not work for others.



Three different strokes and three different winners----

Keith McCready
Efren Reyes
Mike Sigel

Which would you want to emulate...LOL!

If you play enough and playing good, your pre-shot routine is a natural reaction and you don't even think about it.

It all becomes easy....:grin:
Click to expand...


Same stroke, three different styles.
randyg
 
The Renfro said:
OK I see the trap you set there.... Lets see if the bait gets taken LOL
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I'm a very big taker-of-the-bait. It's what I live for.

Unfortunately, there's no bait here because Randy hasn't yet explained his definition of 'stroke.' Or was that the bait?
 
FranCrimi said:
I'm a very big taker-of-the-bait. It's what I live for.

Unfortunately, there's no bait here because Randy hasn't yet explained his definition of 'stroke.' Or was that the bait?
Click to expand...



There's another good reason why you are a Master Instructor.....:wink:

People just seem to throw these words around with out meanings. Maybe thats where the confusion comes from in our sport.

According to Physics there is a stroke and then there must be an effective and reliable stroke.
Style is something personal.

Fran is the best
randyg
 
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