Pro vs. Joe 9-ball spot

vapoolplayer said:
The pro cut pockets are probably more of an advantage to the pro player than the A player.
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Many people would say this is obvious, but I'm not so sure. If I'm going to have a chance against a pro, I need him to make mistakes. I know I can run out on tough equipment if I'm on my game, but I need those mistakes to happen. Easy equipment doesn't help me a bit when I'm in the chair; just the opposite in fact.

-Andrew
 
Andrew Manning said:
Right. But our hypothetical player isn't going to bet any amount he doesn't consider a worthwhile price for lessons. So losing every set is an acceptable outcome here.

-Andrew
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and that is precisely why 'fair' doesnt appear with the general bully.

i say you try mike $5/ game, even, but if he misses, you get bih...or wit ye olde handspan any shot.

or try him wit the 7, stipulate spot moves up/ dow each time a player gets 5 ahead of the other.
 
Andrew Manning said:
Say, hypothetically, there's a guy in the poolroom who's hypothetically an enormous pool geek and will jump at the chance to match up with a pro player regardless of how bad of a money-making proposition it is, as long as the stakes are affordable.

Let's further posit that said purely hypothetical player is a run-out 9-ball player, perhaps A- level.

What kind of spot might make a relatively even game between this anonymous (not to mention handsome) gentleman and a pro? For the sake of purely hypothetical argument, let's say the pro in question is Mike Davis.

-Andrew
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So if I'm reading in between the lines...

You are Mike Davis and "Andrew Manning" is your secret identity on these pool forums. Clever...

Andrew Manning said:
Many people would say this is obvious, but I'm not so sure. If I'm going to have a chance against a pro, I need him to make mistakes. I know I can run out on tough equipment if I'm on my game, but I need those mistakes to happen. Easy equipment doesn't help me a bit when I'm in the chair; just the opposite in fact.
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I can understand this logic. If it's winner breaks, then I may agree with you.

But if you got the breaks (which I think is a MUST spot...at least for me), then I would want the table to play as easy as possible. You'll never get stuck in the chair if you got the breaks.
 
jsp said:
So if I'm reading in between the lines...

You are Mike Davis and "Andrew Manning" is your secret identity on these pool forums. Clever...
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ANd furthermore...it it clear he has a crush on Andrew Manning.

:grin-loving:
 
I would flip the question around. Why would a pro like Mike Davis play you, a non-pro, cheap sets if he only stands to break even?

When I have the chance to play a pro cheap sets, I assume I'm donating. I don't expect him to give me a spot where I'll win 50% of the time.

So the better question is, what kind of spot would Mike Davis give you to play cheap sets? If he's smart, he'll give you a spot where he's basically printing money. By way of comparison, I used to play cheap sets against Ginky back in the day. I was about a B player at the time. Our standard game was a race to 7 for $20; I got the called 7 ball. I won one set. Worth every penny.
 
A smart hustler

always keeps a ball and a half for himself, so if he says he will give you the 7, he still figures he can beat you with the 6 ball. If he says he will give you 3 games on the wire going to 9, he still figures he can win giving you 4 games. A pro, or a smart hustler, is not there to donate money to you, especially in a cheap game. Spots usually go up, closer to even, when the bet is high.

This is one reason why many players prefer to play someone under their speed, or about their speed rather than someone that is decidedly better.

A couple of games still trying to get made that I have heard about lately:

A good regional semi-pro offering the break and orange crush to a low A player on the bar table for 3k, race to 15 or 21, forgot which.
(This A player played the set against a pro player, recorded all statistics to determine his chances for this bet, and the stats came out in favor of the A player). The good regional semi-pro backed out of the bet.


A good regional semi-pro (different one) offering 10 ahead set to Asian Snooker champion on a bar table for 2k. No jump cues allowed.
 
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TSW said:
I would flip the question around. Why would a pro like Mike Davis play you, a non-pro, cheap sets if he only stands to break even?

When I have the chance to play a pro cheap sets, I assume I'm donating. I don't expect him to give me a spot where I'll win 50% of the time.

So the better question is, what kind of spot would Mike Davis give you to play cheap sets? If he's smart, he'll give you a spot where he's basically printing money. By way of comparison, I used to play cheap sets against Ginky back in the day. I was about a B player at the time. Our standard game was a race to 7 for $20; I got the called 7 ball. I won one set. Worth every penny.
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Spot on.

In point of fact, I matched up with Mike for the first time last night, and lost 2 races to 7 where he was giving me the called 7 ball. I started this thread because when we were discussing the spot I wanted to ask for something that still gave him the edge (because as you said, it's his job and I'm the one getting the more valuable experience out of the deal), but I honestly had no idea what I'd need if we were going to make an even game. So I asked for the 7 ball, knowing it wasn't enough, and made a mental note to ask the assembled wisdom of the pocket billiards community about what I might have actually needed.

Next time I'm going to ask for the breaks. It'll get me out of the chair with a decent opportunity once every rack, which is really all I can ask for.

-Andrew
 
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TSW said:
I would flip the question around. Why would a pro like Mike Davis play you, a non-pro, cheap sets if he only stands to break even?

When I have the chance to play a pro cheap sets, I assume I'm donating. I don't expect him to give me a spot where I'll win 50% of the time.

So the better question is, what kind of spot would Mike Davis give you to play cheap sets? If he's smart, he'll give you a spot where he's basically printing money. By way of comparison, I used to play cheap sets against Ginky back in the day. I was about a B player at the time. Our standard game was a race to 7 for $20; I got the called 7 ball. I won one set. Worth every penny.
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Race to 7 for $20 is cheap. I'd take that anytime to learn from anyone who's pro level.

Getting the breaks is key for the A-player...at least you get 1 shot per game.
 
jsp said:
So if I'm reading in between the lines...

You are Mike Davis and "Andrew Manning" is your secret identity on these pool forums. Clever...
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I fear it is you who is overly clever, jsp.

jsp said:
I can understand this logic. If it's winner breaks, then I may agree with you.

But if you got the breaks (which I think is a MUST spot...at least for me), then I would want the table to play as easy as possible. You'll never get stuck in the chair if you got the breaks.
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This is very true. My logic only holds water in a winner breaks format.

-Andrew
 
Andrew Manning said:
Spot on.

In point of fact, I matched up with Mike for the first time last night, and lost 2 races to 7 where he was giving me the called 7 ball. I started this thread because when we were discussing the spot I wanted to ask for something that still gave him the edge (because as you said, it's his job and I'm the one getting the more valuable experience out of the deal), but I honestly had no idea what I'd need if we were going to make an even game. So I asked for the 7 ball, knowing it wasn't enough, and made a mental note to ask the assembled wisdom of the pocket billiards community about what I might have actually needed.

Next time I'm going to ask for the breaks. It'll get me out of the chair with a decent opportunity once every rack, which is really all I can ask for.

-Andrew
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Agreed. I would ask for the breaks. That will get you shooting but still give him the edge. I don't think he would give you breaks plus something - that reduces his edge too much. Giving breaks + ball in hand is a sucker game. No one alive would like that against an A player.

I like the breaks, but in the interest of discussion, here's a couple of other suggestions:

1) A hand span. He still has the edge, but it makes it much harder for him to play safe. That'll slow him down.

2) Play an ahead set, but you don't have to get as far ahead as he does. For example, 7 ahead he wins; 5 ahead you win. He still has the edge; you get the benefit of a game spot; he doesn't have to worry about you running out a short set with a game spot.
 
Andrew Manning said:
Spot on.

In point of fact, I matched up with Mike for the first time last night, and lost 2 races to 7 where he was giving me the called 7 ball. I started this thread because when we were discussing the spot I wanted to ask for something that still gave him the edge (because as you said, it's his job and I'm the one getting the more valuable experience out of the deal), but I honestly had no idea what I'd need if we were going to make an even game. So I asked for the 7 ball, knowing it wasn't enough, and made a mental note to ask the assembled wisdom of the pocket billiards community about what I might have actually needed.

Next time I'm going to ask for the breaks. It'll get me out of the chair with a decent opportunity once every rack, which is really all I can ask for.

-Andrew
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Well, you know Mike is following....~!

Try when he misses, you get BIH. I have been wanting to try that out...

Hell, come over and I will try you some like that, but you have to shoot with no shaft.
 
Black-Balled said:
Well, you know Mike is following....~!

Try when he misses, you get BIH. I have been wanting to try that out...

Hell, come over and I will try you some like that, but you have to shoot with no shaft.
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Try offering Mike "the rails are your pockets." Then snooker him. When he goes to kick at the ball, inform him that by hitting a rail he just scratched and you will be taking ball in hand.

....On second thought, try this first with someone a little smaller than Mike. Maybe Alex Pagulayan. Or one of the women. Yeah. That's the ticket.
 
Something I witnessed with my own eyes and couldn't believe it, was Jose Parica giving a strong A the last six and absolutely robbing him. Oh yeah this was 10 years after Jose's prime playing days. Without the breaks the guy was hopeless. He would lose a game than hit him with four over and over. The guy was powerless.
 
Andrew Manning said:
Say, hypothetically, there's a guy in the poolroom who's hypothetically an enormous pool geek and will jump at the chance to match up with a pro player regardless of how bad of a money-making proposition it is, as long as the stakes are affordable.

Let's further posit that said purely hypothetical player is a run-out 9-ball player, perhaps A- level.

What kind of spot might make a relatively even game between this anonymous (not to mention handsome) gentleman and a pro? For the sake of purely hypothetical argument, let's say the pro in question is Mike Davis.

-Andrew
Click to expand...

Mike doesn't make many bad games. I would say the call six ball or the wild 7 and 8 to start. Or 3 games on the wire in a race to 7 playing even.

No matter what he spots you, you're not going to win by playing bad. Play your game and give it an effort - that will even things up more than a spot would.
 
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