proper balance point?

racer rx

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
What is the prefered balance point from the butt? Is there any advantages/disadvantages from a front heavy cue?
 
racer rx said:
What is the prefered balance point from the butt? Is there any advantages/disadvantages from a front heavy cue?

I like about 2" above the wrap, otherwise a cue feels butt heavy. Not sure of any advatage but it's just what I prefer.

FWIW,

Jim
 
My Balabushka is...........

My 44 year old Balabushka balances at 17.25 inches from the bottom. It is 57.5 inches long. I have been told this is the correct ratio. It hits very solid and plays perfect.

TY & GL
 
OldHasBeen said:
My 44 year old Balabushka balances at 17.25 inches from the bottom. It is 57.5 inches long. I have been told this is the correct ratio. It hits very solid and plays perfect.

TY & GL


I'd have to say that is pretty butt heavy based on it's balance point. What is the weight and balance point of your Lucasi? I'd be willing to bet it might be around 19" or higher.
 
I would like to share something I have learn recently about the balance point.

First of all, I agree that it is the ratio, other than just the distance from the butt, which is important. It is because the weight of the cue depends on the length of the butt and the shaft.

Also, I think it is actually more important to look at the distance between where a player grips the cue to where the balance point is. I think it is the major reason why players like various balance points on a cue. What I am trying to say is where the player grips the cue would make a difference to that player as to how well the cue is balanced. For someone who holds the cue to the very end, he or she would probably prefer a more backward balance such as 18 to 18.5 inches from the butt; on the other hand, for someone holding a cue more to the front, perhaps 19 inches would feel more comfortable. If this distance is altered, the cue would not feel right especially if the player has been playing for a long time. But this is just one of the many factors.

I am sure a lot of you have heard about the open vs close bridge comparision that a player who prefers to use the open bridge may like a more forward balance cue

I also believe a more backward balance such as 18 inches helps a player to draw the ball. On the other hand, with a more front heavy cue, a player can put some really nice top on the cue ball more effectively. For someone with a nice stroke; therefore, a more forward balance cue would give him/her the best of both worlds. I would love to hear everyones opinion on this point here in particular.

Even with the same taper, when you change the balance point, you can change the cue from being very alive to totally dead. I think it is because the mode of resonance of the cue is altered when the center of gravity is changed.

The shaft weight is very important and also is the length. Some players like a heavier shaft and some prefer a lighter shaft.

Thank you.

Richard
 
Your probably correct.

drivermaker said:
I'd have to say that is pretty butt heavy based on it's balance point. What is the weight and balance point of your Lucasi? I'd be willing to bet it might be around 19" or higher.

My Lucasi is a 20 oz & I THINK it is 58".

TY & GL
 
OldHasBeen said:
My Lucasi is a 20 oz & I THINK it is 58".

TY & GL


Lay it across your finger and balace it. Put a little piece of tape right at that balance spot on the cue and measure it from the bottom. (don't include the rubber bumper) I'm curious to see what is is compared to your oldie. I still say it's close to 19"
 
This got me curious...here are my results:

Richard Black - 18.5"
Wes Hunter (Inlays) - 19.5"
Wes Hunter (SP) - 17.5"
Joss - 19.75"
McDermott - 17.75"


FWIW,

Jim
 
jhendri2 said:
This got me curious...here are my results:

Richard Black - 18.5"
Wes Hunter (Inlays) - 19.5"
Wes Hunter (SP) - 17.5"
Joss - 19.75"
McDermott - 17.75"


FWIW,

Jim


And as a result of these measurements...do you find that you prefer the one's with a higher or lower BP to be to your liking.

Also, are any of the shafts with the same joint interchangeable from one cue to the next and if so, does it affect the BP and how the cue feels? The weight of a shaft will change the BP as well as any weight bolts at the opposite end.
 
drivermaker said:
And as a result of these measurements...do you find that you prefer the one's with a higher or lower BP to be to your liking.

Also, are any of the shafts with the same joint interchangeable from one cue to the next and if so, does it affect the BP and how the cue feels? The weight of a shaft will change the BP as well as any weight bolts at the opposite end.


I prefer the lower numbers. The Richard Black seems to feel the best though. Here are the results of the second test:

Richard Black w/Joss Shaft - 18.25"
Joss w/Richard Black Shaft - 19.75"
Wes Hunter (Inlays) w/Mcdermott Shaft - 19"
McDermott w/Wes Hunter (Inlays) Shaft - 17.75"

These results really suprised me. Considering the RB shaft is 13mm with ivory ferrules and the Joss is 13.25mm with linen ferrules. They were nearly identical as the with their own shaft.

The Wes Hunter has a 12.75mm shaft and the McDermott a 12mm shaft. The McDermott didn't change any and the Hunter changed by .5"

Interesting stuff.

Jim
 
jhendri2 said:
I prefer the lower numbers. The Richard Black seems to feel the best though. Here are the results of the second test:

Richard Black w/Joss Shaft - 18.25"
Joss w/Richard Black Shaft - 19.75"
Wes Hunter (Inlays) w/Mcdermott Shaft - 19"
McDermott w/Wes Hunter (Inlays) Shaft - 17.75"

These results really suprised me. Considering the RB shaft is 13mm with ivory ferrules and the Joss is 13.25mm with linen ferrules. They were nearly identical as the with their own shaft.

The Wes Hunter has a 12.75mm shaft and the McDermott a 12mm shaft. The McDermott didn't change any and the Hunter changed by .5"

Interesting stuff.

Jim


I guess that's what makes the world go around. I lean more strongly toward the higher numbers. If you want to talk about something interesting, I have a Meucci Metallic Series cue with 8 different shafts (black dots and red dots) that range from 3.60 oz. to 4.80 oz. and everything in-between, no two identical in weight. Placing the lightest to the heaviest shaft on can change the balance of that cue amazingly. However, I also have about 12 weight bolts for it that are extremely light to quite heavy which means that if I take ALL weight bolts out along with the 4.80 shaft it balances out over 21 inches and weighs a little over 18 oz. If I place a heavy weight bolt in with the lightest shaft, it's around 17 inches for the BP. I can get that cue at a balance point and exact weight anywhere between those two numbers. What a difference in hit/feel/ balance/workability to the CB. You just wouldn't believe what changing that around does.
 
nipponbilliards said:
First of all, I agree that it is the ratio, other than just the distance from the butt, which is important. It is because the weight of the cue depends on the length of the butt and the shaft.

I also believe a more backward balance such as 18 inches helps a player to draw the ball. On the other hand, with a more front heavy cue, a player can put some really nice top on the cue ball more effectively. For someone with a nice stroke; therefore, a more forward balance cue would give him/her the best of both worlds. I would love to hear everyones opinion on this point here in particular.

Richard


Hey Richard...have you ever done any measurements of the weight and balance point of the BUTT ALONE to see if there's any correlation in the overall ratio of balance? I also think the way a butt is weighted and balanced either through a weight bolt or the absence of one will drastically affect a cue. A cuemaker that doesn't use a weight bolt can also change it with a joint collar or internal weighting.

Yesterday was an off and on rainy day, I just stayed at the table and eventually got tired of making balls, so I got out a bunch of cues and started measuring. It might have been a worthless exercise, however it could possibly stir your thinking or someone elses to find something in the numbers.

Butt #1 was a Schon SS joint collar- Weight - 15.55 oz. (no weight bolt) - Balance Point - 13 3/4".

Butt #2 was a Joss SS joint collar - Weight - 15.80 oz. (has weight bolt) - Balance Point - 13 1/8" .

Butt #3 was a Joss SS joint collar- Weight - 16.05 oz. (has weight bolt) - Balance point -
13 1/8"

Butt #4 was an Adam Ritz ('85) SS joint collar - 16.05 oz. (has weight bolt) - Balance point - 12 3/4"

Butt #5 was a Meucci Metallic Nickel joint collar - 15.65 oz. (has weight bolt) - Balance point - 13 3/8"

Butt #6 was a Meucci Power Piston Implex joint collar - 15.80 oz. (has weight bolt) - Balance point - 13 1/8"

Butt #7 was a Hercek Ivory joint collar - 15.10 oz. (no weight bolt) - Balance point 12 1/2" (however with 4.2 oz. shaft on BP was 18 1/2" and 19" with 4.6 oz. shaft)

Butt #8 was a Hercek SS joint collar - 16.40 oz. (no weight bolt) - Balance point - 14"

Butt #9 was a 5280 wood to wood - 16.70 oz. (has weight bolt) - Balance point - 12 3/8

Butt #10 was Cuetec SS joint collar - 17.40 oz. (has weight bolt) - Balance point 11 1/4" (although this is supposed to be a playing cue...with the rear balance this cue is a super fantastic break cue)

Butt #11 was a Helmstetter with SS joint collar - 16.05 oz. (with weight bolt) Balance Point - 12 3/4" (WITHOUT weight bolt) 14.20 oz. and balance point is 14 1/4"
(The addition or deletion of a weight bolt causes drastic differences in the balance point of just the butt alone)


Hey Smorg...you know everything there is to know about cues and the game...do you have anything to add to this?? Oooops...didn't think so....
 
nipponbilliards said:
(snip)
I also believe a more backward balance such as 18 inches helps a player to draw the ball. On the other hand, with a more front heavy cue, a player can put some really nice top on the cue ball more effectively. For someone with a nice stroke; therefore, a more forward balance cue would give him/her the best of both worlds. I would love to hear everyones opinion on this point here in particular.

(snip)
Richard

Interesting...is this really true? Man, this could be a BIG help for those who have draw troubles. I, too, would love to hear more opionions/facts about this.

I have had more trouble drawing and have been good at follow most of my life. I always figured it was the heavy cueballs and the fact that I learned to play without a leather tip. And I have used an open bridge a lot, so I've favored heavy-in-the-front cues, especially when choosing from the bar rack. Could this be so important that it actually affected my draw shot to such a high degree? Has anyone done any studies on this?

Do tell, do tell.

Jeff Livingston
 
chefjeff said:
Interesting...is this really true? Man, this could be a BIG help for those who have draw troubles. I, too, would love to hear more opionions/facts about this.

I have had more trouble drawing and have been good at follow most of my life. I always figured it was the heavy cueballs and the fact that I learned to play without a leather tip. And I have used an open bridge a lot, so I've favored heavy-in-the-front cues, especially when choosing from the bar rack. Could this be so important that it actually affected my draw shot to such a high degree? Has anyone done any studies on this?

Do tell, do tell.

Jeff Livingston


Heavy cueballs aren't helping the cause. If you're choosing from a bar rack, you can't trust what's stamped in there as the weight. Those things are sometimes off by an ounce or more from what's marked.

I think (I KNOW) you can still draw the hell out of the ball even with a front weighted cue IF the cue is still LIGHT enough. The Helmstetter in my illustration without any weight bolt is 18.45 oz total with a 20" balance point and I can zing the hell out of whitey. With a fairly light cue, you can move the cue a lot quicker with the small muscles of your wrist and fingers and generate a lot of speed at impact with less effort, just like you can with a light cue on the break. Try a light cue and see what happens. 18.5 and under. I know Nick Varner uses a cue that weight and I think Allison and Earl might also...not sure about Earl though.
 
I am sure the butt is very important. I have tried to change the weight bolt and I found that the balance point did not change too much--may be less than half of an inch or less--but the cue feels so different.

I believe that the bolt at the butt changes the balance but if the cue was built with the weight bolt in mind and was balanced accordingly, it is not necessarily a bad thing.

As a matter of fact, I think the bolt(s) being put in front of the handle would affect the balance, the feedback, and the play more.

I believe that a heavier object would vibrate with a lesser magnitude--metal therefore would vibrate less than wood given the same initial vibration. When a hit, which is basically a vibration or a wave, is transmitted down the cue, it will decrease in magnitude when it reaches a point which is heavier, such as the metal joint, the weight bolt in the forearm, and/or the bolt joining the forearm to the handle.

Not only that, I think the bolts result in a very abrupt peak in the weight distribution curve along the cue.

When the vibration is muffled, the cue would feel less sensitive.

That is the major reason why I like a Layani cue, which uses only a wood to wood conical configuration at the junction between the forearm and the handle without any weight bolt.

With regard to the draw shot, I agree that a lighter cue may work better. For a good player, he/she can draw and have good result with a front heavy cue in my opinion; however, for a regular player without the ability to accelerate, a slightly butt heavy cue seems to add a bit more power.

I like a cue that is so well balanced it feels like it does not exist in my hand. I like a cue which allows me to play my jack up and cushion frozen shots with ease on hard and soft hits. I like a cue which would give me very accurate action on power shots.

It is not only in the stroke; it is also a matter of whether the equipment was built to offer the highest performance.

Thank you.

Richard
 
Question?

I have a high dollar cue that is butt heavy. The cuemaker does not use weight bolts. The butt is Ebony. Could I have it cored out a little and replace the core with a lighter wood to move the balance point forward about 1 1/2 inchs?
Purdman :cool:
 
Donald A. Purdy said:
I have a high dollar cue that is butt heavy. The cuemaker does not use weight bolts. The butt is Ebony. Could I have it cored out a little and replace the core with a lighter wood to move the balance point forward about 1 1/2 inchs?
Purdman :cool:



ABSOLUTELY!! Send that cue on down here to Uncle Driver and I'll take care of that for you right away. (Hehehehe...I end up gettin' more cues this way) :D
 
drivermaker said:
ABSOLUTELY!! Send that cue on down here to Uncle Driver and I'll take care of that for you right away. (Hehehehe...I end up gettin' more cues this way) :D

How bout I just bring it down in person and wait???? You got a pool table and an extra bed? I bring my own beer!
Purdman :rolleyes:
 
Donald A. Purdy said:
How bout I just bring it down in person and wait???? You got a pool table and an extra bed? I bring my own beer!
Purdman :rolleyes:


Does that inclued 50 lbs. of Chesapeake crabs and my beer also? :p :D
 
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