Proposed rule change: Is the pool world ready for rack-your-own yet?

[Bob Jewett]

... I think people are being way too nitty on this issue imo.
..

But what is your recourse if you can't get a tight rack? Some players don't much care, but to people who depend on the game for money, it's really important. Unfortunately, Sardo taught us that if the rack is tight, a ball goes in, and if no ball goes in, the rack was loose. How is it fair to be forced to break from a loose rack?

 

[Cuebacca]

Yes but it's part of the nuances of the game.. yet it certainly isn't cheating or even bad etiquette to try to give yourself a competitive edge by understanding the rack. You can always ask for a rerack.

More often than not though the the person will just get up there and rack the balls and try to do rack them tight.

That's true, you can always ask, and I think most will honestly try. However, whether they are actually able to get that tight rack is a whole other story. It takes some practice and desire to actually get good at racking on a table that doesn't want to cooperate. Most people aren't going to bother. Most just try to get the 1-ball tight and that's it.

Also at a beginner level this plays zero part and at an intermediate level(like a b player) the rack really isn't that big of a deal.. and I'm talking 9 ball..10 ball forget it then only at a high level is it going to matter..

If a pro needs a tight rack to break and run out, how can I, as someone who would be considered a lowly C player in the eyes of some, expect to break and run out with a bad rack?

and when the the situation does arise that there is a racking issue between 2 top players(or any 2 players for that matter) is it really that big a deal? Doesn't it leave a little of the "heat of the batte" in the game?

I guess, but I feel kind of bad for them, like we're just watching a train wreck. I don't think they are enjoying it so much as we might enjoy watching it. If pool players start pulling down what pro baseball players are making, then maybe I wouldn't feel quite so bad watching them go through the discomfort, but until then, I say let them have their dignity!

 

[sydbarret]

But what is your recourse if you can't get a tight rack? Some players don't much care, but to people who depend on the game for money, it's really important. Unfortunately, Sardo taught us that if the rack is tight, a ball goes in, and if no ball goes in, the rack was loose. How is it fair to be forced to break from a loose rack?

It's not..ask for a rerack. Alot of times the balls will stay tight when you push em up.. if not it may require a little tap. Maybe your on a table where you can't get a great rack.. oh well.

 

[sydbarret]

I guess, but I feel kind of bad for them, like we're just watching a train wreck. I don't think they are enjoying it so much as we might enjoy watching it. If pool players start pulling down what pro baseball players are making, then maybe I wouldn't feel quite so bad watching them go through the discomfort, but until then, I say let them have their dignity!

It's not that uncomfortable.

 

[Luxury]

Thanks, Luxury, for your input. I don't like riders either, but I put them together because I think the two go hand-in-hand. Basically #1 solves one problem and creates another. #2 solves that new problem.

Regarding the idea of hurting TV ratings, I'm not really sure what to say about that. I'll have to leave it up to other posters who are more knowledgeable than I am in marketing research behind pool to corroborate or debunk that idea. I hope that's not true, but if it is, it's really just more evidence that the general public needs more education on what good pool is, IMO.

All I know is that I'd be surprised if that was something that was keeping people tuning in to pool. If I saw a 9-ball go in on the break and the crowd immediately started cheering louder than they do for any other win or good shot, I'd probably turn off my TV and start yelling at the tube, "don't you guys know it only went in because of a bad rack!" LOL.

I know, I take this game way too seriously.

It's not what people tune into pool for. But the more boring pool is on tv for people the more people tune out. Did you happen to notice that the Misconi cup which is totally for tv made rules so that the players HAD to break hard? See, they are on the right path towards getting good ratings. Your idea of taking the 9 ball win on the break is heading in the opposite direction. It doesn't take research just common sense. Most people on here are responding to just the rack your own rule. So again, you shouldn't have made a rider.

 

[Cuebacca]

It's not what people tune into pool for. But the more boring pool is on tv for people the more people tune out. Did you happen to notice that the Misconi cup which is totally for tv made rules so that the players HAD to break hard? See, they are on the right path towards getting good ratings. Your idea of taking the 9 ball win on the break is heading in the opposite direction. It doesn't take research just common sense.

Yes, it is common sense that people generally prefer things that are exciting over things that are boring. Thanks for that newsflash, but how do you know what people consider exciting? You sounded pretty sure that I was killing off any chance at pros making any money in pool, so I wonder, how do you know that this element of the game is so important to the masses that the game would have no hope without it?

Should we just let the audience stay ignorant and snap some 9's for them, or should we make the rule fair and educate them when the ball gets spotted, and then let them watch the rack played out? They might learn something and think, "hey, that's interesting, I had no idea the rack was so important". Seriously, if a 1/2 second of 9 flying into the pocket is more captivating than a few minutes of a skilled game played out, then we probably are without hope anyway.

Why not just rig a table and have an entire ESPN race to 7 end in a matter of 5 minutes with seven 9-balls snapped on the break in a row? It will be the highest rated pool airing ever and everyone will be talking about it around the water cooler the next day.

In fact, why even broadcast 9-ball at all? Why don't we just make the pros play bar box 8-ball (not the oversized barboxes like the Diamonds, but the tiny boxes) with a heavy ball on nap cloth and use the bar rules, honest effort on every shot? Give them house cues with slip on tips too, and cheap chalk. Miscues are exciting!

I mean, I'm not trying to insult that form of pool, but it's not exactly the better contest of skill, but wouldn't it be more exciting for the masses? It's actually a lot more fair than letting a 9 on the break be a win, so why not? More exciting AND more fair.

Most people on here are responding to just the rack your own rule. So again, you shouldn't have made a rider.

How do you know what people are responding to?

If I screwed up in the poll and didn't make it clear, I apologize to everyone who was misled. Please, if you feel like it, let us know if you voted "yes" but didn't like rule #2 regarding snapped money balls.

I can create another poll later with separate selections for the two rules.

 

[Shortside K]

you are sooooo far behind...

imo the whole racking issue is overblown. If I win I don't wanna rack.I'll sit in the chair or stand at the head of the table and let him deal with that. If you have to ask for a rerack oh well it's part of the game. You win you break you lose you rack, what's so hard about that?

Play any top level player for $$$ and let him rack his own... and let him rack your breaks... then get comfortable in your chair...

You could save time by just giving him all your $$$...

 

[sydbarret]

Play any top level player for $$$ and let him rack his own... and let him rack your breaks... then get comfortable in your chair...

You could save time by just giving him all your $$$...

I guess you vote neutral racker

 

[Luxury]

Yes, it is common sense that people generally prefer things that are exciting over things that are boring. Thanks for that newsflash, but how do you know what people consider exciting? You sounded pretty sure that I was killing off any chance at pros making any money in pool, so I wonder, how do you know that this element of the game is so important to the masses that the game would have no hope without it?

Should we just let the audience stay ignorant and snap some 9's for them, or should we make the rule fair and educate them when the ball gets spotted, and then let them watch the rack played out? They might learn something and think, "hey, that's interesting, I had no idea the rack was so important". Seriously, if a 1/2 second of 9 flying into the pocket is more captivating than a few minutes of a skilled game played out, then we probably are without hope anyway.

Why not just rig a table and have an entire ESPN race to 7 end in a matter of 5 minutes with seven 9-balls snapped on the break in a row? It will be the highest rated pool airing ever and everyone will be talking about it around the water cooler the next day.

In fact, why even broadcast 9-ball at all? Why don't we just make the pros play bar box 8-ball (not the oversized barboxes like the Diamonds, but the tiny boxes) with a heavy ball on nap cloth and use the bar rules, honest effort on every shot? Give them house cues with slip on tips too, and cheap chalk. Miscues are exciting!

I mean, I'm not trying to insult that form of pool, but it's not exactly the better contest of skill, but wouldn't it be more exciting for the masses? It's actually a lot more fair than letting a 9 on the break be a win, so why not? More exciting AND more fair.



How do you know what people are responding to?

If I screwed up in the poll and didn't make it clear, I apologize to everyone who was misled. Please, if you feel like it, let us know if you voted "yes" but didn't like rule #2 regarding snapped money balls.

I can create another poll later with separate selections for the two rules.

How do I know what people are responding to? I read their responses and they mostly talked about the racking your own aspect of your rule changes. How do I know that the 9 ball on the break aspect of the game is imporant to audiences? Because they go nuts when the nine goes in or almost goes in! Do you watch pool on tv??? It's just that simple. I never said that is making or breaking pool on tv or anyone ever making money.

I promise you that if you did a poll asking, "Would it be good for tv ratings if we got rid of the 9 ball snap and spotted the nine?" It would be obvious to you then. My only point has been that we need to keep pool on tv as exciting as possible if any of us want to be able to make a career out of it. Would I rather there be money in pool and the crowd less educated? YES! It's okay if we have different agendas for the pool world. I think you are a pool purist and that is awesome. I'm probably more of a savvy business type and that's probably okay too.

Keep up the good work. Sorry if I offended you.

 

[Cuebacca]

Yes, it is common sense that people generally prefer things that are exciting over things that are boring. Thanks for that newsflash, but how do you know what people consider exciting? You sounded pretty sure that I was killing off any chance at pros making any money in pool, so I wonder, how do you know that this element of the game is so important to the masses that the game would have no hope without it?

Should we just let the audience stay ignorant and snap some 9's for them, or should we make the rule fair and educate them when the ball gets spotted, and then let them watch the rack played out? They might learn something and think, "hey, that's interesting, I had no idea the rack was so important". Seriously, if a 1/2 second of 9 flying into the pocket is more captivating than a few minutes of a skilled game played out, then we probably are without hope anyway.

Why not just rig a table and have an entire ESPN race to 7 end in a matter of 5 minutes with seven 9-balls snapped on the break in a row? It will be the highest rated pool airing ever and everyone will be talking about it around the water cooler the next day.

In fact, why even broadcast 9-ball at all? Why don't we just make the pros play bar box 8-ball (not the oversized barboxes like the Diamonds, but the tiny boxes) with a heavy ball on nap cloth and use the bar rules, honest effort on every shot? Give them house cues with slip on tips too, and cheap chalk. Miscues are exciting!

I mean, I'm not trying to insult that form of pool, but it's not exactly the better contest of skill, but wouldn't it be more exciting for the masses? It's actually a lot more fair than letting a 9 on the break be a win, so why not? More exciting AND more fair.

I hope it's clear that this is tongue in cheek. I'm not trying to flame you or anything.

In all reality, I won't be sending in rule proposals to the WPA, because, as mentioned previously, the regulations assume a referee will be racking.

If a ref racks and it good at it, it's not as big of an issue to me if an occasional 9-ball goes in on the break. It still makes me cringe, especially if it shoots straight in a foot pocket, but if it somehow brings more money into pool, I wouldn't begrudge the pros that exposure.

However, let's restrict the rest of the discussion to non-tapped tables with no refs and no public opinion of pool to worry about. In that case, IMO, it is hard to separate the two issues of who racks and what happens when the money ball gets broken in.

 

[Luxury]

I hope it's clear that this is tongue in cheek. I'm not trying to flame you or anything.

In all reality, I won't be sending in rule proposals to the WPA, because, as mentioned previously, the regulations assume a referee will be racking.

If a ref racks and it good at it, it's not as big of an issue to me if an occasional 9-ball goes in on the break. It still makes me cringe, especially if it shoots straight in a foot pocket, but if it somehow brings more money into pool, I wouldn't begrudge the pros that exposure.

However, let's restrict the rest of the discussion to non-tapped tables with no refs and no public opinion of pool to worry about. In that case, IMO, it is hard to separate the two issues of who racks and what happens when the money ball gets broken in.

Fair enough. Sorry if I sidetracked your thread. You raise a really good question about rack your own.

 

[hilla_hilla]

Every tournament I run is always rack your own. Another new thing I am doing, because it is rack your own, if you make the 9 on the break it is automatically spotted.

 

[Cuebacca]

How do I know what people are responding to? I read their responses and they mostly talked about the racking your own aspect of your rule changes. How do I know that the 9 ball on the break aspect of the game is imporant to audiences? Because they go nuts when the nine goes in or almost goes in! Do you watch pool on tv??? It's just that simple. I never said that is making or breaking pool on tv or anyone ever making money.

I promise you that if you did a poll asking, "Would it be good for tv ratings if we got rid of the 9 ball snap and spotted the nine?" It would be obvious to you then. My only point has been that we need to keep pool on tv as exciting as possible if any of us want to be able to make a career out of it. Would I rather there be money in pool and the crowd less educated? YES! It's okay if we have different agendas for the pool world. I think you are a pool purist and that is awesome. I'm probably more of a savvy business type and that's probably okay too.

Keep up the good work. Sorry if I offended you.

Thanks for your reply. You are correct I'm sure about the breaks on TV and I apologize if my reply was overboard.

I do wonder though about the cheering, how much of that is instructed. I know for a fact that the audiences of at least some televised pool events are instructed in the beginning to cheer as much as possible to add to the perceived excitement level.

Fair enough. Sorry if I sidetracked your thread. You raise a really good question about rack your own.

No worries. Ironically, I was the one who sidetracked it by not being fully clear on what the current rules and regulations state, and you helped to bring it back on track.

 

[Cuebacca]

can i play?

Every tournament I run is always rack your own. Another new thing I am doing, because it is rack your own, if you make the 9 on the break it is automatically spotted.

That's it, I am moving to San Diego, California!

 

[sixpack]

When I lived in Kansas bigger tournaments were rack your own.

I would rather play that breaker does not rack.

I've never read Tucker's book on racking/breaking, but I figured out enough on my own through hours and hours of practicing racking and breaking to be able to figure out what someone is doing to the rack and beat them with it some way or another.

I always try to rack as tight and fair as I can. I do, however always rack the balls in 9-ball in a certain order. More out of habit than anything.

~rc

 

[pistolero]

I favor the first rule, but the nine one the break is just part of the game. makes the lesser player feel he has a better chance.

 

[Jimmy M.]

I ain't going to say much on this subject but I'll bet pretty large if someone will let me rack my own nine ball with no reracks and the nine in the side pockets count.

Hu

Then you should seek out the tournaments where they play rack your own. There are plenty of them out there, including all of ours on the AZ Desert Classic Tour (the 9 or 10 doesn't count in the bottom two pockets in our tournaments). All you have to do is win one game on your ability to run out, and you should be off and running with the break.

 

[AZE]

Rack your own FTW... I have no clue why anyone ever objects to it.

 

[enzo]

there are a lot of racking threads recently. that alone may suggest we need changes.

the thing i think we need to change is....... um, you can't change it. when you rack your own and put packages on a good player, many times they think, what is happening, i'm not supposed to lose..... what do i do?? i know, i'll whine, scream and accuse him of cheating, yeah that's it.

so change that. make it a rule or something. not shooting??? well sit the F down and shut the F up, how is enforcing that for a rule change.

 

[ShootingArts]

I would be ran off in a hurry

Then you should seek out the tournaments where they play rack your own. There are plenty of them out there, including all of ours on the AZ Desert Classic Tour (the 9 or 10 doesn't count in the bottom two pockets in our tournaments). All you have to do is win one game on your ability to run out, and you should be off and running with the break.

Jimmy,

It isn't any real trick to make the nine in the side much of the time with a rigged rack and the right hit on a cue ball. When it doesn't go it heads that way consistently and comes very close to going. My point wasn't that I can win tournaments using that break but that it was a sucker bet to bet against me and allow me to use it.

There are flaws to any racking system that relies on a human element. The more we can take the human element out the better. That is why I favor a set order to rack the balls in and a table marked to put the rack in the same place consistently. Pretty easy to check from there.

Rack mechanics will always be with us as long as there are competitors racking on a pool table. I gambled nightly for many years. During those years I let the other player basically set the rules and conditions we played under by their behavior and fought fire with fire when necessary. You learn things of all kinds doing that and many of the things aren't the nice kind. I didn't and don't use that knowledge except for when the other player is bending or breaking the rules. If it is the game being played I am still a pretty good "left handed pool player" but I mostly avoid those deals these days.

Hu