Pro's and con's of very small diameter shafts?

[Patrick Johnson]

1. Squirt and deflection usually mean the same thing: cue ball going off line on a sidespin shot. Deflection can also mean flexing of the shaft - flexing of the shaft has little or nothing to do with the cue ball going off line.

2. Thin tips are not less forgiving of unintended offcenter hits, and they don't produce any more spin than thicker shafts.

3. The only objective practical effect of thinner shafts is that they allow you to see more accurately where you hit the cue ball. Everything else is personal preference.

I've played with a 10mm tip for years.

pj
chgo

 

[Pangit]

1. Squirt and deflection usually mean the same thing: cue ball going off line on a sidespin shot. Deflection can also mean flexing of the shaft - flexing of the shaft has little or nothing to do with the cue ball going off line.

2. Thin tips are not less forgiving of unintended offcenter hits, and they don't produce any more spin than thicker shafts.

3. The only objective practical effect of thinner shafts is that they allow you to see more accurately where you hit the cue ball. Everything else is personal preference.

I've played with a 10mm tip for years.

pj
chgo

I didn't "graduate" college, but I went. That doesn't make sense, physics wise? Flex of the shaft has big importance. Just like tip hardness. Soft tips get more "bite" stay in contact with the QB longer, (Snooker) just like a limber shaft. That's why new day players LOVE LD shafts. It used to take many long hours of practice to figure out all the spin stuff.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Flex of the shaft has big importance.

Many stiff shafts (like mine) are low-squirt and many flexible shafts are high-squirt. Shaft stiffness has little to do with it.

Soft tips get more "bite"

No, they don't.

stay in contact with the QB longer

A tiny amount.

That's why new day players LOVE LD shafts. It used to take many long hours of practice to figure out all the spin stuff.

None of that has much to do with squirt or spin.

This is well known stuff. Read up on it if you're interested.

pj
chgo

 

[robsnotes4u]

I agree

Many stiff shafts (like mine) are low-squirt and many flexible shafts are high-squirt. Shaft stiffness has little to do with it.


No, they don't.


A tiny amount.


None of that has much to do with squirt or spin.

This is well known stuff. Read up on it if you're interested.

pj
chgo

I have to agree with everything said here.

 

[fathomblue]

You play with a 10 mm shaft, Patrick? I'm seeing more and more people on here with thinner shafts.

Everyone in my area seems to using ones in the 12.5 - 13 mm range.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

You play with a 10 mm shaft, Patrick?

Yep. I used an early Predator 314 for several years, then (maybe 10 years ago) designed my current thin, hollow, conical-tapered, tiny-ferruled shaft for Ed Young to make for me. My next one will be the same but with no ferrule (maybe a pad - might need Bob Jewett's input on that).

I'm seeing more and more people on here with thinner shafts.

Yeah, I think the industry is finally following my lead - lol.

pj
chgo

 

[fathomblue]

Do you have any pics of the shaft you use?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Do you have any pics of the shaft you use?

Sorry, I don't. I'll try to remember to take one and post it for you.

pj
chgo

 

[PoolGrapevine]

I'm thinking bout switching to Tiger X or Mezz. Little less deflection but maintain the feel

 

[pt109]

This brings up a question.

What are the characteristics of a carom cue? How are they different than the typical pool cue? Specifically the shaft......

A carom taper, also known as a 'euro' taper, gets smaller gradually towards
the tip....unlike a 'pro' taper with stays roughly the same thickness for a few
inches ( sometimes 20 inches long )....I feel the pro taper weakens a shaft
too much.

I think the pro taper accommodates the bridge hand rather than the cue ball.
To me, the bridge hand should accommodate the shaft.
I like the guts that a carom taper gives me on power shots.

 

[scottjen26]

I used standard Schon shafts for years but turned/worn down to about the 12.25 range. When I quit for a number of years and started playing again, I tried Predator products (being here in Jacksonville) and ended up with a Z2, which is 11.75mm. I shot with that for 2 years, then took a year off due to traveling etc.

I decided I wanted something a bit thicker, I tried a friend's 314-2 and decided to just buy one and give it an extended trial. I've been shooting with it for 5 months now without switching back, although there are still certain shots where the deflection/squirt differences screw me up since the adjustments were more ingrained with the Z2.

It does boil down to personal preference. As Patrick said all of the claims about getting more spin etc. are crap, I can get just as much spin and shoot any stroke shot with the 314-2 that I used to shoot with the Z2. For me, the 314-2 feels a bit more solid and I like the hit I get, the Z2 could feel a little whippy at times, even with the stiffer taper. But I have to say I still prefer the squirt adjustments I made with the Z to the 314, so I may switch back eventually. I actually want to try a Mezz, since it's a happy medium (12.5) and supposed to give a nice hit, just hard to find in the area and an expensive trial run...

If you want to try a smaller shaft definitely check out the Z2, or OB2, etc., sounds like it would be worth it for you!

Scott

 

[Snapshot9]

Shaft

You might check out Gulyassy's SPTX shaft, it's getting lots of good reviews, and has a long taper area.

I played in a tournament in OKC where a guy was using a 5 mm tip. It made a funny 'ping' sound when he shot.

 

[PickPocket]

My 2 cents....

I have a few cues that range from 13.25 - 12.5.

I had 2 shafts turned down to 12.5, with pro tapers (non LD), which I play often!

I just switched back to using my Universal Smart LS shaft, which is 12.75mm I like it. Feels good, not too big, but not sloppy in my closed bridge, using heavy english either!

Another plus to consider.. you can always have a larger shaft turned down, but not the other way around!

Plus plus! Its closed to the "Average" shaft dia. So if you do borrow, or use another cue for some reason, its not a gigantic adjustment!

I like the percision I can get with a smaller shaft, I like to have the option to play some "extreme" english as needed, its fun to control whitey into things others didn't fore see happening, but its a double edge knife too.. easy to get WAY out of shape! hence the middle ground! 12.75-12.5mm!! Happy hittin'em!

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I like the percision I can get with a smaller shaft, I like to have the option to play some "extreme" english as needed, its fun to control whitey into things others didn't fore see happening, but its a double edge knife too.. easy to get WAY out of shape! hence the middle ground! 12.75-12.5mm!! Happy hittin'em!

Smaller diameter shafts can't create any more spin than can be created by larger diameter shafts. It might seem like they can because you might hit a little farther offcenter for the same amount of shaft movement, but you can do the same thing with a larger diameter shaft by just moving it a little farther. When you contact the same point on the CB with both, they both produce the same amount of spin, and maximum spin for both is the same.

pj
chgo

 

[LAlouie]

Pro: allows you to strike the cueball more accurately

Con: you have to strike the cueball more accurately

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Do you have any pics of the shaft you use?

Here's my 9.5mm playing shaft with a 12.7mm break stick for comparison (sorry for the poor phonepics). It doesn't look like it to me (in the picture or in reality), but the small playing shaft is exactly 3/4 the diameter of the larger stick.



In addition to the small diameter and ferrule the first 6-8 inches of the playing shaft is also cored for minimal squirt. Yet the conical taper and hard Kamui tip produce a hit that's actually more solid than the breaker. I have two identical shafts and for more than 10 years they've both taken all the continual abuse any pool cue does playing all games, except I haven't used them for breaking.



Despite some rumors, the small tip doesn't really produce any more spin than a larger one, and it doesn't punish stroke errors more. It just lowers squirt and gives me a better view of tip placement.

pj
chgo

 

[metallicane]

Pro: allows you to strike the cueball more accurately

Con: you have to strike the cueball more accurately

Herein lies the rub of small diameter shafts.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

LAlouie
you have to strike the cueball more accurately

metallicane:
Herein lies the rub of small diameter shafts.

Except that it's not true. You don't have to strike the cueball any more accurately with a thin tip than you do with a thicker one.

The reason you can strike the cueball more accurately is just because you can see it better.

pj
chgo

 

[seelesscacti]

Yep. I used an early Predator 314 for several years, then (maybe 10 years ago) designed my current thin, hollow, conical-tapered, tiny-ferruled shaft for Ed Young to make for me. My next one will be the same but with no ferrule (maybe a pad - might need Bob Jewett's input on that).


Yeah, I think the industry is finally following my lead - lol.

pj
chgo

What are you unhappy with your current shaft that you want your next one to have no ferrule? No ferrule reduces weight, which reduces squirt, I assume, but are there any other advantages? Are there any drawbacks?

Bob Jewett hasn't replied to this yet, but why do you think a pad might be better?

How large is the hollowing in your current 10mm shaft (diameter and depth)? Would you also do this with the ferrule less cue to further reduce squirt?

Would you go any smaller than 10mm? I assume it's still just preference, but is there a limit at which small is too small to play pool with? You said you don't break with these shafts (I would assume out of risk of damage), what is the smallest diameter shaft you could hit the hardest non-break/jump/masse shot in pool without risk of damage in your mind? Bob mentioned seeing a 6mm shaft -- is that too small?

 

[whitewolf]

Does anyone know what diameter shaft Efren, Busty and SVB use?

No, but I can tell you, for what it is worth, what Mike Sigel believes as I spoke to him last night about small diameter shafts (I am getting a Sceptre shaft ground down because it is too heavy and causes my cue to be too front weighted).

He hates them and says that they are very difficult to use, especially for amateurs. Also, a very good way to miscue.

He also said that after all of his years of researching and trying out different thicknesses he likes a shaft to be between 12.7mm and 12.8mm.