Prove CTE is better than Ghost Ball

What ARE you talking about?

The ball was LONG GONE before the cue moved sideways. You guys all all focused on the wrong thing here. The cue ball rolled right over the point as it was aimed.

If you don't know what to say then make your own videos and show what you want to show.

Go frame by frame the ball is long gone before my back hand swings out. The tip went through the cue ball straight. I will bet $1000 that anyone can put this video into whatever frame by frame analysis you want and the cue will have gone straight through the ball at contact. The cue movement that you are making fun of doesn't matter. That shot didn't require any big follow through.

Go ahead and draw a line from the center of the arrow template point and the center of the cue stick and I bet $1000 that it's within a mm at the moment of impact and just beyond after the ball is gone.

So you don't know what to say? How about, I was wrong, the ball went over the spot just as John said it did?

Glad you admire my enthusiasm because until you keyboard wizards get off your butts to join the video discussion you are stuck with me. So if you can do it better or differently then get to it. The question is prove CTE is better than ghost ball and I think I proved it. I could do a lot more on this.

This is the whole point of contention between those of us that say a player's cueing technique is so much more important than is what aiming system they use. Those of us that are more concerned with cueing see your cue go sideways like that and we just cringe while you defend it since the ball is long gone anyways you say. If your cue is not going sideways like that on every shot then this movement needs to be eliminated from your stroke. Otherwise you have all this unnecessary movement in your stroke that you really can't account for in the aiming process. How would you ever even know if you are hitting the cue ball where you are aiming at to begin with, with cueing action like that?

I promise you I'm just saying out loud what many people on here are thinking, including many that are in the CTE camp.
 
This is the whole point of contention between those of us that say a player's cueing technique is so much more important than is what aiming system they use. Those of us that are more concerned with cueing see your cue go sideways like that and we just cringe while you defend it since the ball is long gone anyways you say. If your cue is not going sideways like that on every shot then this movement needs to be eliminated from your stroke. Otherwise you have all this unnecessary movement in your stroke that you really can't account for in the aiming process. How would you ever even know if you are hitting the cue ball where you are aiming at to begin with, with cueing action like that?

I promise you I'm just saying out loud what many people on here are thinking, including many that are in the CTE camp.

I understand but again you ignore the physics. Aiming is one part and execution is another. If you want to ridicule me then find a shot where I did stroke wrong before contacting the ball causing a miss. There are plenty of those examples.



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The first thought I had when you missed the ball entirely is maybe the arrow was just a little too long, or not seated snug underneath the OB.

Just a thought.

Otherwise I think you illustrated the points between the two systems (yes I think ghost ball is a system too) well.

Yes I agree. Not contacting the object ball was completely unexpected and the cause certainly could have been because of careless placement of the arrow guide.

Which again underscores part of the problems with ghost ball. Even when you have an objective guide it still depends on careful placement of the tiny speck that is the tip of the arrow to insure that the Gb center is in the right place.

CTE completely eliminates this problem by making all the aiming a ball to ball exercise.

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You know it's funny, sometimes I wonder if people really want to be a part of a good conversation about how to improve or they just want to put other people down.

Thugger asked if in all my videos I have done any that address form.

Well, here is one. - Stroking on the Known Line - May 2012 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Vd0yHk8LMw

Notice I don't pretend to be a pro and my videos are uncut and contain misses. I am not trying to instruct per se, simply presenting MY thoughts on various aspects of the game that interest me and using YouTube to do that.

Here I talk about getting down on the shot and the delivery aspect https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU7XinHPeao

I am realy sorry but it truly seems that very few of you are really interested in doing much more than writing nastygrams. I like to take concepts to the table and work them out there. I guess I am expecting the "opponents" to step up and do their own videos showing whatever concepts they have but perhaps that is expecting far too much.

I like pool, actually I love pool. I find it fascinating. I find the depth of the game to be nearly endless and I find it to be simple in appearance, "just balls and a stick man, just balls and a stick", but actually very deep in nature and hard to master. I like that there are many ways to approach playing pool and I like to explore those ways ON THE TABLE.

I wish there were more robust discussions which included video presentations, warts and misses and all, I think that those conversations would be constructive, instructive and not destructive. But people like Duckie and others seem hell bent on being ONLY destructive.

They troll and never really contribute, never try to find common ground. It's kind of disgusting and very disheartening to see from people who probably think that they love pool as well.
 
That doesn't help your argument. Just because YOU either didn't get the center of the CB to go over the spot, or didn't line up the arrow correctly doesn't mean the arrow or GB sucks.

It would be like me shooting a 15 degree perception shot. Using 30 degree perception visuals, and then saying CTE sucks when I missed. User error is NOT a good reason to be dismissive of any method.

I disagree. I think that it illustrates the problem. The point is so tiny with the arrow that it's actually easy to line up wrong imo. And when the arrow is removed.....forget about it.

However anyone can compare for themselves which is the point. Make an arrow and try it. Set up the same shots.
 
Yes I agree. Not contacting the object ball was completely unexpected and the cause certainly could have been because of careless placement of the arrow guide.

Which again underscores part of the problems with ghost ball. Even when you have an objective guide it still depends on careful placement of the tiny speck that is the tip of the arrow to insure that the Gb center is in the right place.

CTE completely eliminates this problem by making all the aiming a ball to ball exercise.

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John:

In the spirit of honest discussion (no trolling from me, you know that), I think it might be a combination of a couple things why you were missing the object ball completely with the arrow.

1. Careless placement of the arrow (which you and Tony already suggested);

2. Your stroke.

I noticed something in your stroke that's subtle in some cases, overt in others. Let's take a look:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=fMNs82JOumU#t=4m10s

Take careful note of your cue action after you've contacted the cue ball -- how you swerve the butt of the cue away from your body instead of delivering straight through to a Finish position. Although, yes, you were trying to demonstrate that you can indeed roll the cue ball over the point of the arrow, what you also demonstrated was a little bit of tentativeness in your accuracy to do so, in the form of steering. Looking at the direction in which you were steering related to which direction the arrow was pointing, it looks like subconsciously you were thinking you were going to hit the point of the arrow too fat (i.e. too much into the "meat" of the arrow's body), and you were steering away from it.

I noticed this also in several shots in the video, and other videos.

If you'll allow me the liberty of a little conjecture on my part, I'm thinking it might be either your stroke, or else you've been away from the idea of using ghostball / contact patches / etc. for so long, that you've forgotten how to do it. (I.e. you have to dust-off your filing cabinets "upstairs" to retrieve this information.) Because I see you doing this with CTE, I'm thinking it might be more stroke issues than anything.

I know; what happens to the cue after contact is made with the cue ball is a moot issue, physics-wise. But actually it does, if you think about it. If you're steering like that, it might be that your aim (or confidence in your aim) is just a little off in the first place, which most definitely WILL have an affect before and during contact with the cue ball.

Again, I'm only saying this in the spirit of honest sharing and good intentions.

Thoughts?
-Sean
 
I know what you proved JB

I know exactly what you proved. I am embarrassed for you. Before you watch these two short videos remember I am a B player, and I am not looking to play for 10,000 against JB.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIoYnzoO2hU

The second video I just point at the spot on the felt where the ghost ball will be sitting. If a player uses a ruler, crane's arrow, or any other device to mark where the ghost ball sits and shoots for a while, then removes the device a mark it with your tip, shooting for awhile in just a few days your subconscious mind will learn the distance and you will be consistent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnfXSEo3IEQ

By the way JB if you get a stroke trainer device like I used in the second part of the first video, you will find out it isn't ghost ball that failed you in your video.
 
I disagree. I think that it illustrates the problem. The point is so tiny with the arrow that it's actually easy to line up wrong imo. And when the arrow is removed.....forget about it.

However anyone can compare for themselves which is the point. Make an arrow and try it. Set up the same shots.

I agree that the point of the arrow is so tiny, that it would be easy NOT to roll the cue ball exactly over it.

But good perceptive aimers do NOT use a spot on the table to aim. That's the problem with these ghostball discussions. And it perhaps is also the issue with those aiming system advocates who downplay ghostball technique -- i.e. that they are not or have never used it correctly. You don't aim at a minute spot on the table. That's just wrong, and I would agree wholeheartedly with your contention that it's not easy to roll the cue exactly over that arrow's point, much less trying to do that with an invisible spot on the table.

Rather, when using ghostball -- and I've said this before -- you aim at the *volume* of the ghostball as it would sit in that spot contacting the object ball for a pocketing alignment. It's much, *MUCH* easier to aim at a 2.25-inch target than a 1-mm point or a "speck." In essence, when you're aiming at the "volume" of the ghostball, it's much easier to hone-in to the center of where that cue ball needs to go. You're replacing the "ghost" of the cue ball at that alignment with the object ball, with the physical cue ball itself. You can say that you're replacing the ghostball with the cue ball. It's that simple. People are actually quite good at doing that, and this skill is leveraged in other sports as well (e.g. American football, baseball, etc.).

One other benefit of using the entire volume of the ghostball, is that you have multiple "edges" to align with, rather than a single spot itself. Although I rarely use ghostball anymore, I can still imagine an entirely-formed ghostball at its alignment with the object ball (I pride myself in having good perceptive abilities), and what I do, is to imagine a set of train tracks from the cue ball's position where I'm cueing it, to the volume of the ghostball's position at that position at the object ball to pocket it. Or, think of a "pipe" laying on the table that I'm shooting the cue ball through, where it exits at that exact position with the object ball to pocket it. In other words, I use BOTH EDGES of the cue ball and the ghost ball to do so. In other, other words, I'm using *lines* and not minute spots. And even then, my focus when aiming is NOT anywhere (not even remotely) on the cloth. It's actually right on the object ball itself.

The snooker back-of-ball technique I use leverages this "train tracks" method, in combination with fractional aiming. (Remember, I have that "lookup table" of common ball fractions / eclipsing alignments memorized.) The beauty of using ghostball *properly* (and not as Duckie claims) is that you have multiple checks and balances, that balance out.

Yes, it still requires good visualization technique to "see" those invisible train tracks, but this is made much easier by using both edges (the leftmost edge and the rightmost edge) of both the cue ball, and the ghostball, to do so. I find it actually comes naturally for me. (I was once an excellent baseball player in my day.)

So those players like Duckie who say you're supposed to aim at these things called "contact patches" on the cloth or what-not, are doing it all wrong. In fact, the logical extension of the arrow is that it's supposed to teach you to visualize the cue ball at that position at the object ball. It's end goal is NOT supposed to teach you to aim at 1mm points on the cloth.

-Sean
 
Here is another video after the first two

The point is that I wasn't TRYING to make the ball not roll over the center of the arrow point. I am not sure how else I am supposed to use it? The whole point of the arrow is that the teeny point represents the ghost ball center and you should aim for that and roll over it to insure contact with the OB at the right contact point. I have seen no other instructions other than that on how to use it. I guess I could go back and try to find the passage in Cranfield's book for beginners that explains it.

As I showed with no ball I was able to make it roll OVER the center from a sharp angle when no ball was present.

CIT, Contact Induced Throw, is by definition is what occurs on contact. So if the cue ball misses the whole object ball then CIT isn't even part of the shot.

Now, let's talk about why I didn't even hit the ball. I was focusing on trying to line up center to gb point for the sharp cut. For the shallower cuts I was able to do it no problem but for the thinner cuts I missed the ball completely while consciously trying to roll over the arrow's point.

Using CTE I was able to hit the ball cleanly and cut it in. And this is available with every shot like that which you face, no template or guide needed.

The point remains that adding an external device to "learn" ghost ball only complicates the process. If anything GB should be learned through full imagination to better develop one's spatial abilities if one really wants to use GB as an aiming method in actual play.

I would be more than happy to go up against Duckie in a shot making contest and spot him the arrow.

one rack of 14.1 using ghost ball, remember I am not as good as you, as I am only a B player.
 
I know exactly what you proved. I am embarrassed for you. Before you watch these two short videos remember I am a B player, and I am not looking to play for 10,000 against JB.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIoYnzoO2hU

The second video I just point at the spot on the felt where the ghost ball will be sitting. If a player uses a ruler, crane's arrow, or any other device to mark where the ghost ball sits and shoots for a while, then removes the device a mark it with your tip, shooting for awhile in just a few days your subconscious mind will learn the distance and you will be consistent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnfXSEo3IEQ

By the way JB if you get a stroke trainer device like I used in the second part of the first video, you will find out it isn't ghost ball that failed you in your video.

Robert, not sure what you think you proved with that video. Every shot but one (I think) was with the OB less than 2 diamonds from the pocket. If those were the most difficult shots one every faced in a match, no aiming system would be needed.
 
Robert, not sure what you think you proved with that video. Every shot but one (I think) was with the OB less than 2 diamonds from the pocket. If those were the most difficult shots one every faced in a match, no aiming system would be needed.

Really, guess you didn't watch JR video trying to prove ghost ball doesn't work. He couldn't even hit the object ball at thus distance.

http://youtu.be/fMNs82JOumU[/QUOTE]

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one rack of 14.1 using ghost ball, remember I am not as good as you, as I am only a B player.

I have no idea how good you are. I also don't care if YOU use Gb or any other method. Use whatever you like. This discussion is prove cte is better than ghost ball and I put in my entry. Shooting a rack with Gb doesn't address that point.

Duke Laha reported that he broke 100 in 14.1 after learning cte and is now over 150 if you want to use amateur performance as an indicator.





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I agree that the point of the arrow is so tiny, that it would be easy NOT to roll the cue ball exactly over it.

But good perceptive aimers do NOT use a spot on the table to aim. That's the problem with these ghostball discussions. And it perhaps is also the issue with those aiming system advocates who downplay ghostball technique -- i.e. that they are not or have never used it correctly. You don't aim at a minute spot on the table. That's just wrong, and I would agree wholeheartedly with your contention that it's not easy to roll the cue exactly over that arrow's point, much less trying to do that with an invisible spot on the table.

Rather, when using ghostball -- and I've said this before -- you aim at the *volume* of the ghostball as it would sit in that spot contacting the object ball for a pocketing alignment. It's much, *MUCH* easier to aim at a 2.25-inch target than a 1-mm point or a "speck." In essence, when you're aiming at the "volume" of the ghostball, it's much easier to hone-in to the center of where that cue ball needs to go. You're replacing the "ghost" of the cue ball at that alignment with the object ball, with the physical cue ball itself. You can say that you're replacing the ghostball with the cue ball. It's that simple. People are actually quite good at doing that, and this skill is leveraged in other sports as well (e.g. American football, baseball, etc.).

One other benefit of using the entire volume of the ghostball, is that you have multiple "edges" to align with, rather than a single spot itself. Although I rarely use ghostball anymore, I can still imagine an entirely-formed ghostball at its alignment with the object ball (I pride myself in having good perceptive abilities), and what I do, is to imagine a set of train tracks from the cue ball's position where I'm cueing it, to the volume of the ghostball's position at that position at the object ball to pocket it. Or, think of a "pipe" laying on the table that I'm shooting the cue ball through, where it exits at that exact position with the object ball to pocket it. In other words, I use BOTH EDGES of the cue ball and the ghost ball to do so. In other, other words, I'm using *lines* and not minute spots. And even then, my focus when aiming is NOT anywhere (not even remotely) on the cloth. It's actually right on the object ball itself.

The snooker back-of-ball technique I use leverages this "train tracks" method, in combination with fractional aiming. (Remember, I have that "lookup table" of common ball fractions / eclipsing alignments memorized.) The beauty of using ghostball *properly* (and not as Duckie claims) is that you have multiple checks and balances, that balance out.

Yes, it still requires good visualization technique to "see" those invisible train tracks, but this is made much easier by using both edges (the leftmost edge and the rightmost edge) of both the cue ball, and the ghostball, to do so. I find it actually comes naturally for me. (I was once an excellent baseball player in my day.)

So those players like Duckie who say you're supposed to aim at these things called "contact patches" on the cloth or what-not, are doing it all wrong. In fact, the logical extension of the arrow is that it's supposed to teach you to visualize the cue ball at that position at the object ball. It's end goal is NOT supposed to teach you to aim at 1mm points on the cloth.

-Sean

I could agree with that. Although I went frame by frame and the ball was gone long after the back hand swung out I won't rule out stroke totally. One hallmark of all good players is that there is not any extra movement after the shot.

As for the point versus the whole ball method I agree with that as well. I feel that if one were to use Gb then the ball replacement method would be better than the Arrow that duckie advocates.

I have created ghost ball templates using flat paper discs. They definitely work much better from the shooter's perspective in my experience.

Still all that said, having an objective aiming method such as CTE is in my opinion better than an imaginative one that relies on creating a fully formed ghost ball in your mind and placing it correctly. Not to say that this can't be done because it clearly is done. I just think it's more strenuous and not as precise as CTE for those who are not as adept as you are with the ability to form that picture.

Therefore my conclusion remains that CTE is better as what was asked for by the thread starter.
 
1mm would be huge Sean. The visible point on the template is much smaller than that.

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Really, guess you didn't watch JR video trying to prove ghost ball doesn't work. He couldn't even hit the object ball at thus distance.

http://youtu.be/fMNs82JOumU

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk[/QUOTE]

Actually what I said is that I don't know WHY I wasn't hitting the object ball on the thin cut. My theory is that for that shot there was an optical illusion in play.

Before I start this part of the discussion I want to point out that what you see me do in the video is not doctored in any way. When I shoot these videos it is an off-the-cuff exploration of concept.

What I intended to show using the think cuts with the GB template was NOT that the ball would be unhit. What I thought would happen is that a pure GB aim would result in undercutting the shot and that I would then go back and manually adjust the template to adjust for that. Thus showing that using the GB method required a lot of manual adjustment even when using a template.

I did not expect to miss the ball.

Ok, so at 3:48 is where I try the first shot. If you go FRAME BY FRAME you will see that the cue ball appears to roll over the arrow point perfectly. You will also see that my stroke is dead straight. FRAME BY FRAME.

So the aiming to the point was correct, the stroke was correct. It's possible that the template was incorrectly placed. I go and correct that on the next shot and miss the ball again.

When I go from the thin cuts to the shallow ones then rolling over the point works.

So again my conclusion is that the template on thin cuts is not useful because it introduces some sort of visual illusion. On paper one would expect it to work but in real life it does not appear to work. An adjustment would have to be consciously made.

In contrast the same shot with CTE was easy to sight and easy to make.
 
Am I the only one who finds it ironic that CTE users say that all balls missed are either attributed to stroke, wrong visuals, getting lazy with visuals or putting unintended english on the cue ball? CTE is perfect but we are not. Why is it appropriate to say that when using CTE and not when using ghost ball? John even said he may have gotten careless with the arrow placement. How does that prove ghost ball doesn't work?

I believe visualization leads to the best shot making. Something similar to what Gordy put together with the striking line aiming system. Visualize the cue ball along the entire path to the object ball and then the object ball all the way to the pocket. I think quite a few top players use something similar when they say they are not sure how they aim. They aren't just withholding information. They are doing it on a subconscious level.
 
I don't know about any else, but most of my misses are caused by stroke, wrong shot picture, getting lazy, hitting the wrong spot on the cueball (stroke again), and I don't use CTE. Are there shots where I aim wrong, absolutely there are and I bet most here have done that too. What is interesting to me about CTE is how these visuals are used to put your self on the shot line automatically. To me if it can eliminate the chance of you aiming wrong, it is well worth the effort.

I believe that aiming is a very personal thing, and few have ever sat down and reflected upon what they do. I think sometimes there may be as many different ways to aim as there are pool players. The problem is when you try to reflect and break down exactly what you do, you will be thinking about it when down on a shot, instead of letting your subconsience take over. That will put a major crimp in your game for sure.

Am I the only one who finds it ironic that CTE users say that all balls missed are either attributed to stroke, wrong visuals, getting lazy with visuals or putting unintended english on the cue ball? CTE is perfect but we are not. Why is it appropriate to say that when using CTE and not when using ghost ball? John even said he may have gotten careless with the arrow placement. How does that prove ghost ball doesn't work?

I believe visualization leads to the best shot making. Something similar to what Gordy put together with the striking line aiming system. Visualize the cue ball along the entire path to the object ball and then the object ball all the way to the pocket. I think quite a few top players use something similar when they say they are not sure how they aim. They aren't just withholding information. They are doing it on a subconscious level.
 
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Am I the only one who finds it ironic that CTE users say that all balls missed are either attributed to stroke, wrong visuals, getting lazy with visuals or putting unintended english on the cue ball? CTE is perfect but we are not. Why is it appropriate to say that when using CTE and not when using ghost ball? John even said he may have gotten careless with the arrow placement. How does that prove ghost ball doesn't work?

I believe visualization leads to the best shot making. Something similar to what Gordy put together with the striking line aiming system. Visualize the cue ball along the entire path to the object ball and then the object ball all the way to the pocket. I think quite a few top players use something similar when they say they are not sure how they aim. They aren't just withholding information. They are doing it on a subconscious level.

I never said ghost ball does not work.

I said I think CTE is better.

The bottom line for me of why Cte is better is that I can make more balls using it. All other aspects aside.

I think that I am not hampered by ghost ball estimation. And yes for the aim portion a cte user can also be off but I find that being off happens a lot less when using cte.



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I never said ghost ball does not work.

I said I think CTE is better.

The bottom line for me of why Cte is better is that I can make more balls using it. All other aspects aside.

I think that I am not hampered by ghost ball estimation. And yes for the aim portion a cte user can also be off but I find that being off happens a lot less when using cte.



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I never said ghost ball does not work.

I said I think CTE is better.

The bottom line for me of why Cte is better is that I can make more balls using it. All other aspects aside.

I think that I am not hampered by ghost ball estimation. And yes for the aim portion a cte user can also be off but I find that being off happens a lot less when using cte.



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