PUSH OR PULL

Pin

AzB Gold Member
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in other words a 'throw'. you just used more words to say it. to use the words push/pull, imo at least, can lead one to a 'steering/guiding' action. just draw it back and throw it.
No, that's not what I was getting at. The experience is supposed to feel like the elastic band (or cue) is leading the movement (even though it isn't in reality), which is different to feeling like you're pushing, pulling, or throwing the cue.
 

Pin

AzB Gold Member
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It isn't just gravity that is being used and the elastic band analogy isn't far off. What is happening with snooker setups being wound so tight is that the stretch is built up across your tendons (the ends of muscles that connect muscles to bone...to save some of you a google search). In this stretched position the muscles are resisting the stretch and trying to return to their resting state/size so when you allow for this to occur after your pause, it feels like you don't do anything at all because all the force being put into the cue to get it going is provided by a combination of gravity and the stretched muscles returning to their normal size. From there you can add force in several ways as needed for the desired delivery but a simple return to rest from that wound/stretched position will do nicely on its own too.
That's an interesting take. My view was the exercise was something similar to reiki, where the effect is all in the mind, but nevertheless, you do experience an effect.
(The snooker stance feels tense and tight to begin with, but gets easier over time as your body adapts.)
 

WobblyStroke

Well-known member
That's an interesting take. My view was the exercise was something similar to reiki, where the effect is all in the mind, but nevertheless, you do experience an effect.
(The snooker stance feels tense and tight to begin with, but gets easier over time as your body adapts.)
My snooker stance is never tense, but it is wound tight. What I mean when I say the mechanics are wound tight is that there are stretches built into the setup... the rotation about the hips, the deep bend, the low shoulders, all work together to lock down the cue path so there is no wiggle room. The muscles around the shoulder joint in particular feel quite stretched (I picked this up from a Steve Davis tip where he said the lower you get the left shoulder, the more stretch you build up and the straighter it goes). Same concept applies to the shoulder in the cueing arm.

So then when you stretch it further in the backswing, live tension develops in the tendons as described in my previous post and once released, the cue seems to do all the work as the tendons tugging back towards a resting muscle size/tension (plus gravity) make the stroke go and it feels like you do nothing at all....like releasing a stretched elastic. Technically tho, even tho you don't perform it, the muscles returning to their baseline size/tension produce a pulling action no different from one that would be produced by a similar shortening (contraction) of the muscles from an unstretched position.

It isn't a 'take'. It's an accurate description of what is happening ;) You're welcome :p
 
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WobblyStroke

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You're welcome :p

pj
chgo
Thanks for the smoother phrasing but I still prefer my wording. This isn't a feel vs real thing if that is what you're suggesting by your edit. Any time you develop a stretch across a muscle tendon the built up tension is tugging on it to return to its baseline. Taking advantage of this tug and gravity to power the stroke allows players to generate smooth accelerating cue power with minimal added effort. It isn't the only thing that is happening as I did mention in my original post that the player can add force in several ways on top of this. But it is most def happening and this effect is what the rubber band analogy comes pretty damn close to describing.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
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Any time you develop a stretch across a muscle tendon the built up tension is tugging on it to return to its baseline.
Why don't I ever feel this "tugging" even when my arm is fully straightened (which is more "stretched" than it ever is while playing pool)? Why don't I have to hold my arm straight? If you're actually feeling anything, I'm guessing it's the gravity you mention.

But I kinda like the visualization, even though I question its physiological reality.

pj
chgo
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
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Thanks for the smoother phrasing but I still prefer my wording. This isn't a feel vs real thing if that is what you're suggesting by your edit. Any time you develop a stretch across a muscle tendon the built up tension is tugging on it to return to its baseline. Taking advantage of this tug and gravity to power the stroke allows players to generate smooth accelerating cue power with minimal added effort. It isn't the only thing that is happening as I did mention in my original post that the player can add force in several ways on top of this. But it is most def happening and this effect is what the rubber band analogy comes pretty damn close to describing.
i do not believe the bolded statement is accurate
muscles contract because of "sliding" of the filaments resulting from chemical interactions started by nerve impulses
muscles ARE NOT rubber bands
also tendons dont stretch like a rubber band
 

WobblyStroke

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i do not believe the bolded statement is accurate
muscles contract because of "sliding" of the filaments resulting from chemical interactions started by nerve impulses
muscles ARE NOT rubber bands
also tendons dont stretch like a rubber band
Thanks for the post but I'm well aware of this as I teach physiology. What I'm referring to is a simple stretch in the muscle fibers and tendons. Muscles have a certain shape to them. When they are stretched out of this shape they tend to want to return to that shape. This isn't a true contraction but it is an elastic return to their resting size.
 
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bbb

AzB Gold Member
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It is a measurable physiological reality and has been shown in studies...not on pool strokes specifically but the concept of stretched muscles returning to size and as a result the joints which got stretched beyond an equilibrium point returning to that preset on their own once the stretch is released is nothing new and has been demonstrated in a variety of movements. Obv utilizing gravity goes hand in hand with this.

Thanks for the post but I'm well aware of this as I teach physiology. What I'm referring to is a simple stretch in the muscle fibers and tendons. Muscles have a certain shape to them. When they are stretched out of this shape they tend to want to return to that shape. This isn't a true contraction but it is an elastic return to their resting size.
this want to return to that shape. cant be very forcefull
surely not enough to get a cue going at the speed necessary
and as you know the stretch on the tendon will contribute close to nothing in the "desire to return to that shape"
jmho
icbw
 

WobblyStroke

Well-known member
Why don't I ever feel this "tugging" even when my arm is fully straightened (which is more "stretched" than it ever is while playing pool)? Why don't I have to hold my arm straight? If you're actually feeling anything, I'm guessing it's the gravity you mention.

But I kinda like the visualization, even though I question its physiological reality.

pj
chgo
It is a physiological reality and has been observed in countless subjects in countless studies.
I tried a couple of times to explain it without giving away the specifics I charge for and couldn't do it adequately with just general statements. However, this is a familiar concept to golf instructors who deal with any of the 'physics-perfect' swings so will use that to illustrate.

Specifically regarding the transition, the vast majority of great players have their club move at the pace of gravity from the top as they transition. So what gets things going is a slight 'fall'. When dealing with any swing that is 'physics-perfect' (ish) we are really talking about using forces that repeat. So in golf you have 2 options: gravity or torque. There are many ways to produce the latter but the way I'm referring to is a kind of passive return to rest torque that doesn't require any additional impulse to make it unwind. The idea is that of winding up till we reach range of motion (ROM) maximums and then releasing the stored energy of that coil. What happens when you max out the ROM of a joint is that the tendons of that joint get stretched tight and do not want to go beyond that point. So the club coming around the body loads these angles if you will and produces these stretches. Then, with the entire kinetic chain stretched taut without any slack spots, a move in the footwork or hips or really anywhere down the line on the chain causes the entire thing to start unwinding. No extra added impulse required. An old Masters champion described an ideal swing this way adding this summary for his students regarding power in the golf swing: "The more you put in, the less you get out". Meaning, if you just coil it, release it, and let the dominoes fall from there, a very powerful swing will be produced without you adding a damn thing to it. This type of stroke can be applied to cue sports as well tho the specifics of which dominoes fall and how change.

So for snooker, this same concept of getting all the slack out and getting the entire chain taut allows for a noticeable tension to be built up and it can easily be strong enough to be felt across the shoulder joint. When a backswing forces the stretch farther, more tension builds up and the normal state demands to be restored. This is exactly what happens when you let go of the elastic. This gets things going smoothly and on plane since we didn't introduce any new impulse which can pull a cue/golf club/whatever off the plane it is swinging on. The zip depends on timing of when and how force is added and as alluded to earlier there are many ways to do this.

this want to return to that shape. cant be very forcefull
surely not enough to get a cue going at the speed necessary
and as you know the stretch on the tendon will contribute close to nothing in the "desire to return to that shape"
As mentioned, this works hand in hand with gravity and the cue wanting to return to its rest position (address position for most players). In a loose arm, you can feel this stretch/tug. While I think you would be surprised how much force can be exerted by muscles to resist the overstretch, you are right we aren't cranking it like maniacs while cueing and getting anywhere near those limits so the forces are pretty subtle. That said, you don't need a ton of power to get the cue accelerating smoothly. And really, it is like a first domino in a line of dominoes. This little tug and gravity provide more than enough force to get the cue going and start the dominoes falling that will eventually produce a very powerful stroke.

To circle all the way back garczar's point, this discussion is a dive into the minutia of a type of throw. Most strokes are very similar to and can be modeled as a simple throw. Getting the slack out so that one part can tug uninterruptedly on another part throughout a motion is key for seamless force transmission. As soon as you have slack, you have compensatory tightening to cover slack spots and a loss of the swing plane (aka the yips). This seamless force transmission is the real value of this elastic stretched feel. Tho it does contribute some of the force production as well.
 
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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
It is a physiological reality and has been observed in countless subjects in countless studies.
I can feel the "stretchiness" of some muscles in some circumstances - like when I open my hand as wide as possible I can feel the fingers "wanting" to curl back up, and they do when I relax them. But I don't feel anything like that when I backswing for a pool shot, even with a significant pause at the rear (or even when I straighten my arm completely). Has it been observed with the specific muscle(s) and movements used to strike a CB?

Again, I like the visualization either way.

pj
chgo
 
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bbb

AzB Gold Member
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wobblystroke
i think you are impressed with yourself
and you are not accurate in your descriptions
thru out the normal range of motion
forearm perpendicular to the floor to lets say 45ish degree to the floor on take back
my biceps feels no "tug"
you also said this above
it can easily be strong enough to be felt across the shoulder joint.
the shoulder joint is relatively fixed thruought the back swing and foward swing until around contact
so there should be no stress at all
you do agree that muscles are not rubber bands?
yes?
so your premises and conclusions are faulty
jmho
 

WobblyStroke

Well-known member
wobblystroke
i think you are impressed with yourself
and you are not accurate in your descriptions
thru out the normal range of motion
forearm perpendicular to the floor to lets say 45ish degree to the floor on take back
my biceps feels no "tug"
you also said this above
it can easily be strong enough to be felt across the shoulder joint.
the shoulder joint is relatively fixed thruought the back swing and foward swing until around contact
so there should be no stress at all
you do agree that muscles are not rubber bands?
yes?
so your premises and conclusions are faulty
jmho
it's ok to be wrong. In this case, you are.
I point out the stretch can be felt in the shoulder joint bc this is the exact sensation Steve Davis mentioned in his example I included above.
When u take the slack out of the kinetic chain what is often referred to as 'live tension' can be felt/used. It feels kind of like being wound to a position and anytime you move away from that, the body wants to spring back to that position. This is a concept applicable to many sports, pool included. It is a matter of setting up correct relarionships between body parts.

Again, I'm not spilling the specifics in a free forum just yo prove the legitimacy of what I said and really only chimed in to back up how bang on the top snooker instructor's lesson was which was shared by someone above.

I have given the lesson on how this all ties together and it has helped many of my students, especially the better ones getting into coaching themselves. While Im sure u wont be signing up for one, perhaps consider looking up that snooker instructor and pay him to connect all the dots for you.
 
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WobblyStroke

Well-known member
I can feel the "stretchiness" of some muscles in some circumstances - like when I open my hand as wide as possible I can feel the fingers "wanting" to curl back up, and they do when I relax them. But I don't feel anything like that when I backswing for a pool shot, even with a significant pause at the rear (or even when I straighten my arm completely). Has it been observed with the specific muscle(s) and movements used to strike a CB?

Again, I like the visualization either way.

pj
chgo
ye there is no stretch in a dead hang. even with the locked down maximums employed in snooker stances the stretch is not extreme but can def be felt if you get the shoulder and grip right. The pronated grip is common knowledge at this point so thats half of it.

either way, there can def be an elastic spring loaded feel to the stroke without it necessarily being a stretchy feel in thè biceps. I def dont drive my sttoke with biceps. Free armswings generally don't. Most ppl would do better to forget about the buceps entirely and let their subconscious stroke it. They'll be involved in more of a supporting role but def not the main driver.
 

bbb

AzB Gold Member
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ye there is no stretch in a dead hang. even with the locked down maximums employed in snooker stances the stretch is not extreme but can def be felt if you get the shoulder and grip right. The pronated grip is common knowledge at this point so thats half of it.

either way, there can def be an elastic spring loaded feel to the stroke without it necessarily being a stretchy feel in thè biceps. I def dont drive my sttoke with biceps. Free armswings generally don't. Most ppl would do better to forget about the buceps entirely and let their subconscious stroke it. They'll be involved in more of a supporting role but def not the main driver.
i think you and straightline vwould be very compatible
 
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bbb

AzB Gold Member
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ye there is no stretch in a dead hang. even with the locked down maximums employed in snooker stances the stretch is not extreme but can def be felt if you get the shoulder and grip right. The pronated grip is common knowledge at this point so thats half of it.

either way, there can def be an elastic spring loaded feel to the stroke without it necessarily being a stretchy feel in thè biceps. I def dont drive my sttoke with biceps. Free armswings generally don't. Most ppl would do better to forget about the buceps entirely and let their subconscious stroke it. They'll be involved in more of a supporting role but def not the main driver.
since your forearm has to be pronated to grip the cue and correct me if i am wrong
there is no supination in the grip during the stroke
what does pronated grip have to do with anything?
you mention tension across the shoulder and i assume you are referring to the shoulder of the cueing arm
since the tension in the bridge shoulder doesnt change as the bridge shoulder should not be moving
since snooker players tend to have the most fixed elbow stroke the "stretch of shoulder" should not change much until after contact
as the amount of shoulder extension doesnt seem to change much thru out their stroke
p.s.
what do you charge for a lesson?
you can pm me
it would interest me to hear what you are holding back
 

WobblyStroke

Well-known member
since your forearm has to be pronated to grip the cue and correct me if i am wrong
there is no supination in the grip during the stroke
what does pronated grip have to do with anything?
you mention tension across the shoulder and i assume you are referring to the shoulder of the cueing arm
since the tension in the bridge shoulder doesnt change as the bridge shoulder should not be moving
since snooker players tend to have the most fixed elbow stroke the "stretch of shoulder" should not change much until after contact
as the amount of shoulder extension doesnt seem to change much thru out their stroke
p.s.
what do you charge for a lesson?
you can pm me
it would interest me to hear what you are holding back
To stick with the snooker coach's analogy, if you are going to stretch an elastic, might as well have an anchor to stretch it against like a tightly wound shoulder.
 
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