Since its only the upper arm attached to the shoulder the only way to stetch it would be to raise your elbow more
Regardless this puts no stretch on the forearm
So how does that effect the stroke?
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PUSH OR PULL
- Thread starter bbb
- Start date
Regardless this puts no stretch on the forearm
So how does that effect the stroke?
I think the elastic band is an image, not a anatomic reality--but a helpful image or analogy to transmit feel. Every instructor has to demonstrate a pro stroke to the student but also get the feel of such a stroke communicated.
If I think about that (subconscious) release of the cue using that image--let the band pull the cue rather than muscle the cue forward--it's an excellent analogy.
Most players have been told so many times to accelerate going forward that they do so with muscle and the kind of clenching both sides of this debate are seeking to avoid with their own strokes. "Smooth, buttery, evenly paced, naturally accelerating more if the bridge is longer without conscious power applied by the arm") is the goal, however you describe it.
If I think about that (subconscious) release of the cue using that image--let the band pull the cue rather than muscle the cue forward--it's an excellent analogy.
Most players have been told so many times to accelerate going forward that they do so with muscle and the kind of clenching both sides of this debate are seeking to avoid with their own strokes. "Smooth, buttery, evenly paced, naturally accelerating more if the bridge is longer without conscious power applied by the arm") is the goal, however you describe it.
This video is a good description of how a light clasp tends towards cue momentum and a straight stroke. Riffing off Newton's physical law, "don't interfere with a stroke that starts straight (no tight muscles or grip) and the cue will fly and end straight."
However, this does not mean the cue must be thrown through the stroke. It can be "thrown" rarely for power shots. But power alone isn't the goal for most shots.
I'm not trying to debate, I'm saying those who don't understand the rubber band analogy can think of the beginning of the stroke as a falling via gravity as suggested.
Do you recall how the band was attached? What were the two ends?
I've been thinking about the rubber band analogy here but I do think it's a bit of a stretch (nyuk nyuk). Even if it's just a feel the player is trying to find during his stroke --- he first has to feel a significant stretch at the end of his backstroke in order to feel that release on the way forward.
In order for a stretch like that to occur, the player would have to have a massively long bridge length. I don't think it's a good enough analogy for a player to grab on to as a 'feel.'
I like mine --- the feeling of pulling your arm closed and I also like Bert Kinister's analogy of of a break shot, feeling like you're going to throw a punch with slow backstroke windup and then a forward BAM! feeling. It's close to the rubber band analogy but not really the same feel.
In order for a stretch like that to occur, the player would have to have a massively long bridge length. I don't think it's a good enough analogy for a player to grab on to as a 'feel.'
I like mine --- the feeling of pulling your arm closed and I also like Bert Kinister's analogy of of a break shot, feeling like you're going to throw a punch with slow backstroke windup and then a forward BAM! feeling. It's close to the rubber band analogy but not really the same feel.
I like imagining I'm drawing a bow - how much tension I "feel" = how hard I want to hit the shot.
pj
chgo
The drawing back feeling --- I get. But what about the forward motion? You let go of the drawn bowstring and there's nothingness. That's the part I can't imagine feeling. The foward movement IS a controlled movement, after all.
I think “feeling” the backstroke/bowstring tightening and slowing helps me to visualize and produce its reverse: a smooth acceleration to the needed speed in the opposite direction. An imperfect analogy, but a useful reminder.
pj
chgo
i like to use the drawing a bow analogy more for timing
slow backswing
then release
ie "let it happen" "dont force it"
To me, the "drawing back" visual keeps everything in line throughout the pull-back.
This can help prevent pulling your back hand inside (around your body) or outside (away from your body).
It is difficult to pull back a banana path if I visualize pulling directly opposite my target (for me).
As far as the forward stroke, when I think of it as a push, the follow through is only limited by the length of my arm.
When I think of it as a pull, I can only visualize it to the point my forearm is vertical. After that, I see it as pushing.
I typically don't think of it as either when I play. It is at times when I feel I am not finishing the stroke, that I try to visualize the push.
Just my .02 ymmv
This can help prevent pulling your back hand inside (around your body) or outside (away from your body).
It is difficult to pull back a banana path if I visualize pulling directly opposite my target (for me).
As far as the forward stroke, when I think of it as a push, the follow through is only limited by the length of my arm.
When I think of it as a pull, I can only visualize it to the point my forearm is vertical. After that, I see it as pushing.
I typically don't think of it as either when I play. It is at times when I feel I am not finishing the stroke, that I try to visualize the push.
Just my .02 ymmv
Yes, I think the distinction that's the subject of this thread is not only irrelevant but destructive of good play. It is useless or worse to both players and instructors.Its better not to think. It only leads to overcomplicating matters
I can't really fathom why someone would want to or need to think of this when they play or practice.
Dedicating practice to specifics is great I think, but this is too specific.
I'm sure most of us at some point in life had had lots going on whilst you try to concentrate on something. The kids screaming in the back of the car whilst you try to negotiate the world's busiest junction at rush hour comes to mind...and all you need is for the kids to keep quiet for the next 10 seconds whilst you pick the right gap between cars to pull out. Pool is a lot like that. Negotiating the junction is the shot you're trying to play and the screaming kids are the ridiculous thoughts you have a out something you read on an internet forum that people assured you would improve your game. Next time, leave the kids at home
I describe the feel of the follow-through to my clients who use the pendulum arm swing as a pulling motion and they get it right away --- especially when I compare it to the pulling motion of a hammer curl. So, yes, at least for me as a teacher, it serves an excellent purpose. It helps them keep their elbow steady when they think of it that way and capture that feel. That's okay if you guys think it's irrelevant. All I can say is that I'm glad I don't think that way because I've helped a lot of players in that way.I can't really fathom why someone would want to or need to think of this when they play or practice.
Dedicating practice to specifics is great I think, but this is too specific.
I'm sure most of us at some point in life had had lots going on whilst you try to concentrate on something. The kids screaming in the back of the car whilst you try to negotiate the world's busiest junction at rush hour comes to mind...and all you need is for the kids to keep quiet for the next 10 seconds whilst you pick the right gap between cars to pull out. Pool is a lot like that. Negotiating the junction is the shot you're trying to play and the screaming kids are the ridiculous thoughts you have a out something you read on an internet forum that people assured you would improve your game. Next time, leave the kids at home
Also, when I used to compete on tour, that pulling motion feel is what I grasped on to when the pressure got hot in a match. It worked great in keeping my arm swing straight when the nerves kicked-in.
After all --- if it feels like a pull, it's a pull! Have you ever heard of a feel like a pull but it's really a push? Nah. Not possible.
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snookered_again
Well-known member
im not quite that far yet but I'm learning to never trust a fart. they have a way of surprising you ;-)
snookered_again
Well-known member
I cant really fathom why a pool cue would be considered to be pulled, it seems obvious to me you are pushing the cue ball , or pushing the cue..
something confusing me thouhg is push shots. OK so the cue ball is supposed ot only be contacted once otherwise this can be called a fault. I m not sure how often it is called and may be different in 9 ball or snooker..
so as I'm taught the rule of thumb is that the cue ball should be the distance of a chalk from the object ball unless its shot at an oblique angle this is because it's hard to have a very short stroke and not follow though hence pushing the cue ball. If they are that close then I need to apply more of a tap than a push so that it isn't a fault.
I think what confuses me about that is that unless you are using cameras and judges it is very difficult to go back and question a shot and if it was a push. Its gone by the time such a call is made.
also even on an angle it is possible to push the cue ball , in fact isnt; that really the difference of "follow through" vs a tap of the ball? how can I backspin a ball if Im not pushing it, does the cue not follow and cause spin by pushing it in such way that it spins backwards? how do I define these things and make the right call when planning shots? I find it all a bit confusing because it is difficult for me to define. some is of course inexperience.
Another similar situation is where the object ball is near another ball and the contact may be only microseconds of difference so the question comes up as to which ball was contacted first. again another thing hard to prove or call upon... at least for me. In many cases the contact is so quick and precise wiht so little difference that it is hard to question. I try to avoid causing such faults and I also find a lot of inconsistency on this being called, some perhaps being more tolerant than others.
something confusing me thouhg is push shots. OK so the cue ball is supposed ot only be contacted once otherwise this can be called a fault. I m not sure how often it is called and may be different in 9 ball or snooker..
so as I'm taught the rule of thumb is that the cue ball should be the distance of a chalk from the object ball unless its shot at an oblique angle this is because it's hard to have a very short stroke and not follow though hence pushing the cue ball. If they are that close then I need to apply more of a tap than a push so that it isn't a fault.
I think what confuses me about that is that unless you are using cameras and judges it is very difficult to go back and question a shot and if it was a push. Its gone by the time such a call is made.
also even on an angle it is possible to push the cue ball , in fact isnt; that really the difference of "follow through" vs a tap of the ball? how can I backspin a ball if Im not pushing it, does the cue not follow and cause spin by pushing it in such way that it spins backwards? how do I define these things and make the right call when planning shots? I find it all a bit confusing because it is difficult for me to define. some is of course inexperience.
Another similar situation is where the object ball is near another ball and the contact may be only microseconds of difference so the question comes up as to which ball was contacted first. again another thing hard to prove or call upon... at least for me. In many cases the contact is so quick and precise wiht so little difference that it is hard to question. I try to avoid causing such faults and I also find a lot of inconsistency on this being called, some perhaps being more tolerant than others.
since your question about push shots is not part of the gist of this thread
i sent you a link to your PM from dr dave which should explain the answer more
and hopefully not send this thread in that direction
check your pm
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“Push” is a defined term in the rules, meaning “longer than normal” contact - normal shots have normal contact time.
pj
chgo
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snookered_again
Well-known member
Thanks Very much Patric. It makes sense, I do understand the concept. i think there are examples of where it may or may not be called that are likely to be debatable. yes it is a bit off topic of the thread. good video, Ill watch all of it and open a new thread if I need more on it. It completely does make sense why its a foul.