Push Shot Fouls

StraightPoolIU

StraightPoolIU

Brent
Silver Member
There has been something in the BCA rules that I have never really understood and have heard conflicting opinions about, push shot fouls. I've read the rule several times, and even though I don't remember the exact wording I know that it still didn't make a lot of sense to me. If the cueball is frozen to the ball you want to shoot and the shot is lined up straight in are you allowed to shoot it? I know I've seen several Accustats tapes where this occured and noone made a mention of it being a foul. However, in his straight pool match from the 2000 U.S. Open with John Schmidt Mike Sigel hits a shot that Dallas West and Bill Incardona call an "obvious push". I watched the shot many times on slo-mo. I couldn't tell what was wrong. Are they okay to shoot as long as you don't double hit the cueball, or do I always have to shoot away from the object ball? Thank you all in advance.
 
According to the current BCA Rules: Shoot right through it with a normal stroke.....SPF=randyg
 
randyg said:
According to the current BCA Rules: Shoot right through it with a normal stroke.....SPF=randyg
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I know the shot he is talking about, and the cueball was not frozen to the OB.
 
StraightPoolIU said:
Are they okay to shoot as long as you don't double hit the cueball, or do I always have to shoot away from the object ball? Thank you all in advance.
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As Randy G stated: if the balls are frozen shoot any way you want. If not frozen (but really close) shoot away.

-td
 
Klopek said:
Read through this thread from September. It's long, it's painful, sometimes bad info, but later gets corrected. You get the idea.
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Hey thanks. I did a search before I made this thread, but I guess I didn't use the right terms. The information from Mr. Jewett in that thread was exactly what I was looking for.
 
td873 said:
As Randy G stated: if the balls are frozen shoot any way you want.
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Isn't there also a rule (Perhaps this is an old rule, or game specific?) that the tip of the cue itself cannot follow through forward more than the width of the cue ball? This is to avoid people playing power strokes on frozen combos.
 
AuntyDan said:
Isn't there also a rule (Perhaps this is an old rule, or game specific?) that the tip of the cue itself cannot follow through forward more than the width of the cue ball? This is to avoid people playing power strokes on frozen combos.
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I think your getting some of the rules mixed together. The one dealing with traveling forward deals with the cueball.

Basically when the cueball and objectball are less than a chaulk width apart, if the cueball goes forward more than half the distance of the objectball it is a foul, UNLESS the person making the call can absolutely tell that it was a good hit.

It may be worded a little different, but thats the idea.
 
woody_968 said:
... Basically when the cueball and objectball are less than a chaulk width apart, if the cueball goes forward more than half the distance of the objectball it is a foul, UNLESS the person making the call can absolutely tell that it was a good hit....
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As mentioned in the thread referenced above, while this is mentioned in 2.21(?) in the rules, it is a guideline and not a rule. Further, on some close shots if the cue ball penetrates the space of the object ball by only 1/4-ball, a competent referee will correctly call a foul.
 
Bob I have to disagree with your statement about allowing a 1/4 ball penitration through an object ball. If there is any space between the cue ball and object ball and the cue ball penetrates any further then the point of contact between the cb and object ball and the cue ball is hit with a draw stroke it has to be called a foul. It is impossable for a cb to move forward after making contact with the object ball if a draw stroke has been used. The only way a cue ball can roll forward using a draw stroke is for the cue ball to make contact with the cue a second time which then causes the cb to roll forward before the reverse english has a chance to take.
 
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jodcue said:
Bob I have to disagree with your statement about allowing a 1/4 ball penitration through an object ball. ...
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I think we're in complete agreement, but I may not have worded my reply as clearly as possible. I was trying to point out that even a 1/4-ball penetration might be a foul in spite of the guideline, which sort of says that the penetration has to get up to 1/2 ball to be a foul.

There are three other situations in which a cue ball can penetrate with draw. One is if the cue ball is heavy, like a bar ball. Another is if the cue ball is inelastic, like ivory balls. The last is if the cue ball jumps forward because it is in the air when it hits the object ball. It is this last case that people tried to argue in the thread (about a close-ball double hit) cited above. The problem with that argument is that the cue ball was too close to the object ball to get significant elevation before it hit the object ball.
 
Thank you for the clarification. Although we don't see ivory balls or heavy cb in most tournament situations we are seeing more and more players using the jump shot stroke to avoid the double hit in these close cb to ob situations. If a referee is watching this type of double hit situation I suggest that the palyer inform the referee that he is atempting a jump strike so the ref will have a better idea of what to look for. If he dosen't he should not be surprised when a foul is called in these situations.
 
jodcue said:
Thank you for the clarification. Although we don't see ivory balls or heavy cb in most tournament situations we are seeing more and more players using the jump shot stroke to avoid the double hit in these close cb to ob situations. If a referee is watching this type of double hit situation I suggest that the palyer inform the referee that he is atempting a jump strike so the ref will have a better idea of what to look for. If he dosen't he should not be surprised when a foul is called in these situations.
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You're welcome.

One of the best things referees can do to prepare for these calls is to learn to play close shots themselved (and jump shots), so they begin to get a feel for what can happen legally and what is probably a foul.

For some creative ways to use miscues to get out of double hits, see http://www.onthebreaknews.com/Jewett4.htm#October06
 
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