Push shot with BIH?

[arsenius]

Is it legal to push with ball in hand? The idea just occurred to me the other day out of the blue. I haven't tried it. The only situation I can think of where it would be useful is playing a weaker player. You might break up a cluster of balls and leave your opponent a tough shot, or even an easy shot if you were sure they couldn't run out. Of course, this wouldn't show much respect for the opponent.

BTW, I looked at the rules and it said that the break must be legal to take a push shot. However, the rules also state that the break can be legal even if a scratch occurs. At least that's how I understand it.

Has anyone ever seen this done in a match?

5.4 LEGAL BREAK SHOT
The rules governing the break shot are the same as for other shots except:
1. The breaker must strike the1-ball first and either pocket a ball or drive at least four numbered balls to the rail.
2. If the cue ball is pocketed or driven off the table, or the requirements of the opening break are not met, it is a foul, and the incoming player has cue ball in hand anywhere on the table.
3. If on the break shot, the breaker causes an object ball to jump off the table, it is a foul and the incoming player has cue ball in hand anywhere on the table. The object ball is not re-spotted (exception: if the object ball is the 9-ball, it is re-spotted).

5.6 PUSH OUT
The player who shoots the shot immediately after a legal break may play a push out in an attempt to move the cue ball into a better position for the option that follows. On a push out, the cue ball is not required to con-tact any object ball nor any rail, but all other foul rules still apply. The player must announce the intention of playing a push out before the shot, or the shot is considered to be a normal shot. Any ball pocketed on a push out does not count and remains pocketed except the 9-ball. Following a legal push out, the incoming player is permitted to shoot from that position or to pass the shot back to the player who pushed out. A push out is not considered to be a foul as long as no rule (except rules 5.8 and 5.9) is violated. An illegal push out is penalized according to the type of foul committed. After a player scratches on the break shot, the incoming player cannot play a push out.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Is it legal to push with ball in hand? The idea just occurred to me the other day out of the blue. I haven't tried it. The only situation I can think of where it would be useful is playing a weaker player. You might break up a cluster of balls and leave your opponent a tough shot, or even an easy shot if you were sure they couldn't run out. Of course, this wouldn't show much respect for the opponent.

BTW, I looked at the rules and it said that the break must be legal to take a push shot. However, the rules also state that the break can be legal even if a scratch occurs. At least that's how I understand it.

Has anyone ever seen this done in a match?

Pushing is not allowed after a foul. Pushing is only allowed on the first shot after a legal break.

 

[arsenius]

Pushing is not allowed after a foul. Pushing is only allowed on the first shot after a legal break.

Did you read those rules I posted? It appears that "legal break" does not mean that a foul didn't occur. It means that the break itself was legal (4 balls to a rail, or a ball pocketed) but in making the (legal) break a foul occurred.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Did you read those rules I posted? It appears that "legal break" does not mean that a foul didn't occur. It means that the break itself was legal (4 balls to a rail, or a ball pocketed) but in making the (legal) break a foul occurred.

Okay, I'll put it another way - I've competed in professional tournaments that followed BCA rules and were run by BCA certified referees and they did not allow push shots if a foul occurred on the break. If you have BIH at ANY time, you must perform a legal shot or it's a foul.

What they show are the requirements necessary to perform a legal break. If these requirements are not met, it's a foul. Once a foul has occurred, the push option is no longer available.

 

[Hail Mary Shot]

A foul (CB off the table or scratch) on the break is not a legal break, NO PUSH !!!

also, what is the relevance of a push or why was Push invented? what is it's objective? you can simply hook the person with the BIH or run out the rack with a BIH. a push-out was invented to put a player in a position where he can hit the OB and most often times than not, don't give the opposing player much thought of a position to shoot if he doesn't choose to.

let's say it's legal and you really did a BIH PUSH-OUT, what if he returns it back to you? you had just given yourself a headache.

 

[arsenius]

HMS,
I said in my OP what the relevance would be. The only use I can see is if you think you can run out, but don't expect your opponent to be able to. Most of the time this would be useless. But, possibly, for a strong run out player vs. a weak player, it might give the strong player a chance to clean up the table a little bit before starting his run (since he expects to shoot again this rack, whether by having the push given back, or by the weaker opponent missing).

Jude,
I don't doubt that it would be called a foul, but I do highly doubt that you ever saw this situation come up in one of those tournaments. As I said, this would probably be a strategy for a run out player vs. weak player, not pro vs. pro. I wasn't there, so I don't know of course. Nevertheless, after examining the rules, I'm questioning whether that would have been the correct ruling.

If you have BIH at ANY time, you must perform a legal shot or it's a foul.

By DEFINITION you must perform a legal shot or it is a foul, BIH or not. According to the rules, the push shot is a legal shot after a legal break. The way I'm reading these rules is that there may be a difference between a legal break, and a legal break shot. I don't think that was the intention of the authors, however.

Read this closely.

2. If the cue ball is pocketed or driven off the table, or the requirements of the opening break are not met, it is a foul, and the incoming player has cue ball in hand anywhere on the table.

That OR seems to distinguish between the break, and the break shot. At least it seems to separate point 2 from the requirements for the break. It could be interpreted that keeping the cue ball on the table is not a requirement of the opening break.

On reading this, I am questioning whether points 2 and 3 should be included. Those two points hold for all shots, not only the break, so why are they there? A clearer wording might be something like:

5.4 BREAK SHOT
The rules governing the break shot are the same as for other shots except:
The breaker must strike the 1-ball first and either pocket a numbered ball or drive at least four numbered balls to the rail. Failure to do so is an illegal break and rule 5.7 will take effect.

The rest of the rules could also be cleaned up to ensure there is no difference between a legal break, legal break shot, opening break, etc. as at various points they are inconsistent in their wording.

I'm not sure whether it was correct or not, but I have been in places where, if you didn't accomplish point 1 (possibly miscuing and hitting the rack softly), the non-breaking player had the option of taking ball in hand or re-breaking himself. Re-breaking is not mentioned as a possibility in the rules. Therefore, I believe there may be some common misunderstanding about a "legal break," where (people believe) a legal break is any break where point 1 is accomplished, but points 2 or 3 are taken separately. So those places made some distinction between "the break shot" (what happens with the cue ball) and "the break" (what happens to the rack).

 

[Hail Mary Shot]

HMS,
I said in my OP what the relevance would be. The only use I can see is if you think you can run out, but don't expect your opponent to be able to. Most of the time this would be useless. But, possibly, for a strong run out player vs. a weak player, it might give the strong player a chance to clean up the table a little bit before starting his run (since he expects to shoot again this rack, whether by having the push given back, or by the weaker opponent missing).

Jude,
I don't doubt that it would be called a foul, but I do highly doubt that you ever saw this situation come up in one of those tournaments. As I said, this would probably be a strategy for a run out player vs. weak player, not pro vs. pro. I wasn't there, so I don't know of course. Nevertheless, after examining the rules, I'm questioning whether that would have been the correct ruling.



By DEFINITION you must perform a legal shot or it is a foul, BIH or not. According to the rules, the push shot is a legal shot after a legal break. The way I'm reading these rules is that there may be a difference between a legal break, and a legal break shot. I don't think that was the intention of the authors, however.

Read this closely.


That OR seems to distinguish between the break, and the break shot. At least it seems to separate point 2 from the requirements for the break. It could be interpreted that keeping the cue ball on the table is not a requirement of the opening break.

On reading this, I am questioning whether points 2 and 3 should be included. Those two points hold for all shots, not only the break, so why are they there? A clearer wording might be something like:

5.4 BREAK SHOT
The rules governing the break shot are the same as for other shots except:
The breaker must strike the 1-ball first and either pocket a numbered ball or drive at least four numbered balls to the rail. Failure to do so is an illegal break and rule 5.7 will take effect.

The rest of the rules could also be cleaned up to ensure there is no difference between a legal break, legal break shot, opening break, etc. as at various points they are inconsistent in their wording.

I'm not sure whether it was correct or not, but I have been in places where, if you didn't accomplish point 1 (possibly miscuing and hitting the rack softly), the non-breaking player had the option of taking ball in hand or re-breaking himself. Re-breaking is not mentioned as a possibility in the rules. Therefore, I believe there may be some common misunderstanding about a "legal break," where (people believe) a legal break is any break where point 1 is accomplished, but points 2 or 3 are taken separately. So those places made some distinction between "the break shot" (what happens with the cue ball) and "the break" (what happens to the rack).

Sorry, but I'm completely lost about your argument. probably I just don't understand it or you're just confusing yourself, no offense. to make it clearer, all players are all aiming for that BIH gift, dunno why would you settle for the Push-Out just because the opponent is a weaker player.
if that was your aim all along, just simply foul and give him the BIH.

as for the rules, they are just fine. you are just looking at them from a weird perspective.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Jude,
I don't doubt that it would be called a foul, but I do highly doubt that you ever saw this situation come up in one of those tournaments. As I said, this would probably be a strategy for a run out player vs. weak player, not pro vs. pro. I wasn't there, so I don't know of course. Nevertheless, after examining the rules, I'm questioning whether that would have been the correct ruling.

There ARE scenarios where you may want to deliberately commit a foul. If you can do it and not be charged for it, even better! I mean, no matter what you maintain an advantage. If there is no shot even with BIH, give it back to your opponent since he has already has one foul to him.

 

[steev]

CueTable Help

something like this perhaps? with BIH from the break, this would suck.

-s

 

[LILJOHN30]

Kinda extreme

CueTable Help

something like this perhaps? with BIH from the break, this would suck.

-s

This is a extreme example,but the point is understood.Will the cue ball fit next two the one in the jaws??

 

[steev]

This is a extreme example,but the point is understood.Will the cue ball fit next two the one in the jaws??

no!

don't make me go back and put another ball in front. just trying to make a point.

-s

 

[LILJOHN30]

Okay

no!

don't make me go back and put another ball in front. just trying to make a point.

-s

Then If your on 1 and I'm on zero then I would roll the six ball two the two ball.Were both one 1 and its your shot

 

[worldison2]

CueTable Help

something like this perhaps? with BIH from the break, this would suck.

-s

In this instance, don't call a push. Take an intentional foul moving the 6 as clse as possible to the foot spot without interfering with it. Then your opponent will be forced to "go on 2" by taking an illegal hit but also sinking the one-ball, which would get spotted near the six-ball you just put there. From here it should be a piece of cake to put him on 3 and take the win.

 

[Hail Mary Shot]

CueTable Help

something like this perhaps? with BIH from the break, this would suck.

-s

thanks steev ! now I got a more clearer view. it's BIH, still no Push !!! thank god for the CB flying off the table or scratching on the break rule. I believe that's the reason why that foul on the break rule was created, inorder to nullify the Push-Out rule once the CB is out. if however, no balls are pocketed given the same scenario and the CB wasn't fouled, then the use of having a push-out is more ideal, by virtue of the rules.

basically, the player who had a BIH just wanted to escape a foul being called on him. well that's too bad that the layout didn't favor him as well.

 

[LILJOHN30]

no push

In this instance, don't call a push. Take an intentional foul moving the 6 as clse as possible to the foot spot without interfering with it. Then your opponent will be forced to "go on 2" by taking an illegal hit but also sinking the one-ball, which would get spotted near the six-ball you just put there. From here it should be a piece of cake to put him on 3 and take the win.

there is a bih after the break,opponent is on 1 foul already.

 

[worldison2]

there is a bih after the break,opponent is on 1 foul already.

That still doesn't change my advice. Take the intentional foul, but get the 6-ball near the foot spot. Your opponent will still have to foul with BIH and probably sink the one. When it comes up on the footspot you will be in a real good position to put him on 3.

 

[Hail Mary Shot]

it's a race to forfeit by that scenario. the first one who committed the first foul must pocket the one and remove those troublesome clusters apart.

 

[gesan]

A foul (CB off the table or scratch) on the break is not a legal break, NO PUSH !!!

also, what is the relevance of a push or why was Push invented? what is it's objective? you can simply hook the person with the BIH or run out the rack with a BIH. a push-out was invented to put a player in a position where he can hit the OB and most often times than not, don't give the opposing player much thought of a position to shoot if he doesn't choose to.

let's say it's legal and you really did a BIH PUSH-OUT, what if he returns it back to you? you had just given yourself a headache.

Hail mary shot - you are incorrect as to why the p/o shot was invented.
My intention is not to start a war of words here or insult anyone - merely to point out that before the days of texas express 9 ball rules - you could push out at any time and if your opponent made you shoot again - you could push out again if you chose to. There was no ball in hand on all fouls etc... - all of that is fairly new to 9 ball -

 

[LILJOHN30]

Yes

That still doesn't change my advice. Take the intentional foul, but get the 6-ball near the foot spot. Your opponent will still have to foul with BIH and probably sink the one. When it comes up on the footspot you will be in a real good position to put him on 3.

Race to a forfeit,I just want to see what the six on the foot spot would do.I would move the six buy the two and when i got the bih send the two down table and freeze the rock on the six.Just trying to see his strategy.

 

[LILJOHN30]

Spot the one

That still doesn't change my advice. Take the intentional foul, but get the 6-ball near the foot spot. Your opponent will still have to foul with BIH and probably sink the one. When it comes up on the footspot you will be in a real good position to put him on 3.

I don't think the one gets spotted,but we have the same idea except I'm using the two cause I have never seen the one get spotted.The ball would stay down and you would progress to the next ball,IE the two.